Defense on the bench?

[VF21]

In today's Bee, Cedric Simmons is quoted as saying, "Put me in there. I'll block some shots."

Nocioni says, "We aren't playing any D. We don't try to play D."

While we have seen glimpses of Nocioni, we've yet to see Simmons take the court. I want to see him get at least a few minutes and see if he can play better defense than what we've seen recently. Of course, my cat could probably play better defense than what we've seen lately...

I'd like to ask the fans who actually still go to the games to please start a chant the next time our "defense" is looking like matadors... "Ced-ric! Ced-ric! Ced-ric!"

thanks...

 

[kingsnation]

Idk why he hasn't been in there yet... oh wait yeah I do - Natt is freakishly obcessed with small ball.

 

[pkballr]

Not to be outdone by our neighbors in the Bay, Natt prefers to use a lineup of essentially SFs and shorter. Ode to his wisdom I say!

 

[VF21]

Not to be outdone by our neighbors in the Bay, Natt prefers to use a lineup of essentially SFs and shorter. Ode to his wisdom I say!

People keep harping on Natt while also wanting the first pick in the lottery. He's getting THAT job done, folks...

I don't want or expect wins. I just want/expect some effort and I think Simmons deserves a chance on the court. He couldn't possibly be doing worse in practice than what we saw from some players against the Pacers...

 

[kingsnation]

People keep harping on Natt while also wanting the first pick in the lottery. He's getting THAT job done, folks...

I don't want or expect wins. I just want/expect some effort and I think Simmons deserves a chance on the court. He couldn't possibly be doing worse in practice than what we saw from some players against the Pacers...

I do want the first pick in the lottery, but anytime a coach puts a lineup of Martin/Noc/McCants/Garcia/Jackson on the floor and you have a guy like Simmons on the bench, IMHO, deserves questioning.

I agree with your calling for more of Simmons 100 percent. We have Cedric on our bench for less than 2 months to go now, and I really want to know what he can do because we won't have him much longer.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

People keep harping on Natt while also wanting the first pick in the lottery. He's getting THAT job done, folks...

I don't want or expect wins. I just want/expect some effort and I think Simmons deserves a chance on the court. He couldn't possibly be doing worse in practice than what we saw from some players against the Pacers...

People want the first pick but that his happening naturally because of the way the team is constructed. We also would like for the coach to show some basketball chops by making the right decisions, for the kids to build on their successes and improve on their failures, and for the team to show that it knows something about competing at the NBA level. That's not really too much too ask.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Booth I can understand rotting on the bench, but as long as we're not particularly concerned with winning games I'll admit I don't understand why Diogu and Simmons aren't getting any PT. Simmons has seen less than 12 minutes, Diogu less than 6. Total.

Why ship off Ruffin for Diogu in particular if we're not even going to play Diogu? At least McCants is getting his chance.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Going with the topic Defense on the bench, I'm going to talk about the coach. I can't read his mind, haven't talked to him, but these are my impressions of the Pacer game.

BJax & Hawes played the pick & roll as badly as it can be played. Hawes especially failed to show on the ball carrier, and Bobby's man got around them and down the lane. Where JT came in to help and left Murphy, and no one switched to help JT and cover Murphy. The ball got kicked to Murphy for some open 3's. Not JT's fault.

By the way, Nocioni was just as bad as Hawes, on the Pick & Roll.

Greene got back on defense, and stopped the ball at the rim. Murphy stopped at the top of the arc, but no one picked him up since Donte' had went with the ball. Greene then had to run out to guard Murphy. Murphy (who traveled by the way) got by Greene for the score. Not Greene's fault. Later, Greene defended Murphy's drive, as well as any big I've seen on the Kings this year has defended. He stayed with him (blanked him) without fouling, and if Murphy hadn't used the rim by going to the opposite side for a reverse dunk, Greene probably would have blocked the shot.

So, who does the coach take out of the game, not Hawes who actually blew the P&R, but JT the guy who tried to help, and stop the penetration. And, who saw the least minutes of all the bigs, Donte' the guy who got back on D, stopped the layup, and put solid D on Murphy without fouling.

As I said, I don't why Natt pulled JT & Donte after these plays, but I'm guessing he blamed them for Murphy getting easy baskets, and that's just not true. So, I blame the coach for putting our best defenders on the bench.

 

[Bricklayer]

As I said, I don't why Natt pulled JT & Donte after these plays, but I'm guessing he blamed them for Murphy getting easy baskets, and that's just not true. So, I blame the coach for putting our best defenders on the bench.

I have many problems with Natt, but if you think that JT and Greene are our best "defenders"...

 

[Kingzrool]

The Kings have defenders?

 

[G_M]

I have many problems with Natt, but if you think that JT and Greene are our best "defenders"...

At the risk of being labeled heretical I would trot KT out there in certain situations. As long as you are paying the guy 7.9 million let him take a crack at a guy like Troy Murphy. I mean could it be any worse? I'm all for playing the young guys but if you are going to pretend like Donte Green is a PF you might as well trot KT out there.......

 

[Bricklayer]

At the risk of being labeled heretical I would trot KT out there in certain situations. As long as you are paying the guy 7.9 million let him take a crack at a guy like Troy Murphy. I mean could it be any worse? I'm all for playing the young guys but if you are going to pretend like Donte Green is a PF you might as well trot KT out there.......

That's not just heretic stuff. That's burn you at the stake stuff.

Seriously, that $7.9 million is already gone -- you might as well have burnt it up to heat the house this winter. No need to compound matters by throwing the old worthless guy out on the court to boot. Intentionally trying to turn Donte into a new Tim Thomas figure at PF may be dumb, but I'd still rather he get the minutes, anywhere on the court really, than a guy who is not even really on the team. Everything now is about the future.

Now somebody get the torches.

 

[rainmaker]

We don't have good defensive players, and from what I can see we don't have a good defensive system either. I don't expect this team to be good defensively right now, especially with the roster turnover of late. BUT, our defensive EFFORT is terrible. Our guys won't always be in the right place, or make the correct rotation, but I'm sick of not seeing any hard fouls. Instead of JT and Hawes complaining about how they never commit a foul, I would like to see them hack the hell out of someone. Our bigs seem way too concerned with not fouling anyone. And the aggression I'm talking about should translate to offense to. When will we see JT and Hawes start to really attack the hoop. They both have the ability. I would like to see less pumpfakes and flip-shots from them, and more attacking the rim. They rarely try to draw fouls on their defender. I know its a learning proccess for them, but I would like to see some improvement in that area.

 

[BMiller52]

Simmons has potential to be a good defensive player, but unfortunately he hasn't really fit into the long term plans of the last few teams he's been on. That's the only explenation I can think of

 

[Bricklayer]

You know what was an interesting quote from that whole thing? The very final one by Nocioni:

"We are not playing any 'D,' " he said. "We don't try to play 'D.' We come into the building, and we don't think about the defense. We just want to score or shoot the ball. … It's as simple as that. We need to be together, try to practice together and try to play 'D' the next game."

The reason why that was interesting? Becuase it is nearly exactly the same quote that Bobby Jackson gave after a game several months ago. And so now, let's think about this -- Bobby complained about the same stupid selfish playing for the numbers mentality at a time when the starting lineup was probably Beno Udrih, Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Mikki Moore and Brad Miller. Nocioni shows up, takes one look around at the defnese and goes, yeesh, but almost every all of the guys who were there when BJax talked about it are gone now. That the syndrome persists, that we still have our few hardnosed scrappy players talking about our selfish desire to play for nothing more than numbers...well who is left?

You can't blame Kenny Thomas for this one. So you have:

BJax -- no way in hell Noc was talking about him. May not be a great defender anymore, but nobody questions the effort.
Spencer -- maybe, does shot too much, although Spencer himself is quoted in the article as being frustrated by the defense, and he often shows hustle trying to block shots
Jason -- you can certainly question his competence, but not his effort
Greene -- oh I suppose Noc could be talking about him, he does like to chuck, but he barely hits the court so its hard to imagine that is the target
Beno -- well I suppose Noc could have been talking about him too -- he fits the profile. But he only played the first couple of games with Noc and has been out since.
Cisco -- I thought Ciscos's defense was shoddy Tuesday, but when Bobby/Noc are making those comments are they actually questioning his hustle? I see him more as just dumb and mistake prone than unwilling.
Kevin -- do you see why I went holdover player by holdover player now? Who is still here after the deadline, who often doesn't try on defense, and as the team's best offensive player, and now highest paid player, who might sit at the heart of any remaining shoot but not defend culture the team might have?

 

[HighTopKicks]

I have many problems with Natt, but if you think that JT and Greene are our best "defenders"...

Not my intent but I guess it came out that way

No, my intent was to suggest that in the incidents I outlined, they weren't the poorest defenders. And, if that was why Natt sat them on the bench, he was wrong.

And, I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more of Donte on the court for the rest of the year. Either at the SF or PF.

 

[Superman]

You know what was an interesting quote from that whole thing? The very final one by Nocioni:



The reason why that was interesting? Becuase it is nearly exactly the same quote that Bobby Jackson gave after a game several months ago. And so now, let's think about this -- Bobby complained about the same stupid selfish playing for the numbers mentality at a time when the starting lineup was probably Beno Udrih, Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Mikki Moore and Brad Miller. Nocioni shows up, takes one look around at the defnese and goes, yeesh, but almost every all of the guys who were there when BJax talked about it are gone now. That the syndrome persists, that we still have our few hardnosed scrappy players talking about our selfish desire to play for nothing more than numbers...well who is left?

You can't blame Kenny Thomas for this one. So you have:

BJax -- no way in hell Noc was talking about him. May not be a great defender anymore, but nobody questions the effort.
Spencer -- maybe, does shot too much, although Spencer himself is quoted in the article as being frustrated by the defense, and he often shows hustle trying to block shots
Jason -- you can certainly question his competence, but not his effort
Greene -- oh I suppose Noc could be talking about him, he does like to chuck, but he barely hits the court so its hard to imagine that is the target
Beno -- well I suppose Noc could have been talking about him too -- he fits the profile. But he only played the first couple of games with Noc and has been out since.
Cisco -- I thought Ciscos's defense was shoddy Tuesday, but when Bobby/Noc are making those comments are they actually questioning his hustle? I see him more as just dumb and mistake prone than unwilling.
Kevin -- do you see why I went holdover player by holdover player now? Who is still here after the deadline, who often doesn't try on defense, and as the team's best offensive player, and now highest paid player, who might sit at the heart of any remaining shoot but not defend culture the team might have?

Good breakdown. Could be true.

Reading the quote, though, it sounds like the problem is with the coaching staff. He said we need to play together, try to practice together, etc. That sounds like something's not being done between games that Nocioni thinks should be done.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Reading the quote, though, it sounds like the problem is with the coaching staff. He said we need to play together, try to practice together, etc. That sounds like something's not being done between games that Nocioni thinks should be done.

Whether the problem is with Kevin, or whether it's with Natt, maybe the question should be: "If the Celtics win it all again this year, will that make it more or less likely that Thibodeau will put himself on the job market?"

 

[Krunker]

Kevin does not play good D. He might get a steal here but it seems to me he is more often burned on the defensive end. McCants also has been getting a bit of PT lately too, and seems a little more interested in scoring than defending, although I think he could be a good defender.

 

[HighTopKicks]

You know what was an interesting quote from that whole thing? The very final one by Nocioni:



The reason why that was interesting? Becuase it is nearly exactly the same quote that Bobby Jackson gave after a game several months ago. And so now, let's think about this -- Bobby complained about the same stupid selfish playing for the numbers mentality at a time when the starting lineup was probably Beno Udrih, Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Mikki Moore and Brad Miller. Nocioni shows up, takes one look around at the defnese and goes, yeesh, but almost every all of the guys who were there when BJax talked about it are gone now. That the syndrome persists, that we still have our few hardnosed scrappy players talking about our selfish desire to play for nothing more than numbers...well who is left?

You can't blame Kenny Thomas for this one. So you have:

BJax -- no way in hell Noc was talking about him. May not be a great defender anymore, but nobody questions the effort.
Spencer -- maybe, does shot too much, although Spencer himself is quoted in the article as being frustrated by the defense, and he often shows hustle trying to block shots
Jason -- you can certainly question his competence, but not his effort
Greene -- oh I suppose Noc could be talking about him, he does like to chuck, but he barely hits the court so its hard to imagine that is the target
Beno -- well I suppose Noc could have been talking about him too -- he fits the profile. But he only played the first couple of games with Noc and has been out since.
Cisco -- I thought Ciscos's defense was shoddy Tuesday, but when Bobby/Noc are making those comments are they actually questioning his hustle? I see him more as just dumb and mistake prone than unwilling.
Kevin -- do you see why I went holdover player by holdover player now? Who is still here after the deadline, who often doesn't try on defense, and as the team's best offensive player, and now highest paid player, who might sit at the heart of any remaining shoot but not defend culture the team might have?

Your logic seems sound, and your process of elimination seems to lead to one conclusion. But, I find it hard to believe that BJax and Noc, would call out the best player on the team, through the press.

I think the problem is three fold. First the defensive system is either bad or is to complicated. Second, we're playing too many different rotations, and the young guys aren't able to play enough to get the system ingrained into the game. And Third, some of the more veteran players aren't instinctively good defenders, or see no reason to play hard these last 25 games and have just chucked it all. So, there isn't any one person to call out, and BJax & Noc are just frustrated. Plus the press has just singled them out because their willing to make a controversial statement.

 

[Nighthawk1]

BJax -- no way in hell Noc was talking about him. May not be a great defender anymore, but nobody questions the effort.
Spencer -- maybe, does shot too much, although Spencer himself is quoted in the article as being frustrated by the defense, and he often shows hustle trying to block shots
Jason -- you can certainly question his competence, but not his effort
Greene -- oh I suppose Noc could be talking about him, he does like to chuck, but he barely hits the court so its hard to imagine that is the target
Beno -- well I suppose Noc could have been talking about him too -- he fits the profile. But he only played the first couple of games with Noc and has been out since.
Cisco -- I thought Ciscos's defense was shoddy Tuesday, but when Bobby/Noc are making those comments are they actually questioning his hustle? I see him more as just dumb and mistake prone than unwilling.
Kevin -- do you see why I went holdover player by holdover player now? Who is still here after the deadline, who often doesn't try on defense, and as the team's best offensive player, and now highest paid player, who might sit at the heart of any remaining shoot but not defend culture the team might have?

I'm glad someone else said it, I've been thinking this for the same time on a few key players on the Roster. As far as I'm concerned I don't hold JT/Hawes/Greene too accountable but I do hold JT more accountable then Greene. I read an article by Sam Amick in the bee earlier this week which one could come to the conclusion the only reason we lost to Indy is because of Greenes lack of defense on Murphy in the whole 7 minutes he played. I'm wondering why Greene always seems to be the subject of critisizm in papers when it almost seems like other then JT's foul/mouth trouble he's never held on such a high pedistool. But in the end, they're all 20-22, and don't have much NBA time under their belts so I give them a pass for that as long as they're showing hustle.

The guards on the other hand..... I hold them fully responsible for their laziness. I'm not sure if they just aren't competitive or what. It can't be fun being known as a weak defender that can be scored on at will? Wish they were more assertive

 

[rainmaker]

I think Kevins effort on defense really needs improvement. He might never develope into a great defensive player, but he could play good team defense and disrupt the passing lanes more if he tried a little harder. I don't know how much his ankle is a factor, but I do see a direct connection with his deffensive effort and his lowest rebounding numbers in 3 yrs. At this point in his career Kevin should be getting 5+ rebs a game after getting 4+ the previous two seasons. Defense and rebounding is mostly effort, and Kevin should not be below average in both categories.

 

[LPKingsFan]

You know what was an interesting quote from that whole thing? The very final one by Nocioni:



The reason why that was interesting? Becuase it is nearly exactly the same quote that Bobby Jackson gave after a game several months ago. And so now, let's think about this -- Bobby complained about the same stupid selfish playing for the numbers mentality at a time when the starting lineup was probably Beno Udrih, Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Mikki Moore and Brad Miller. Nocioni shows up, takes one look around at the defnese and goes, yeesh, but almost every all of the guys who were there when BJax talked about it are gone now. That the syndrome persists, that we still have our few hardnosed scrappy players talking about our selfish desire to play for nothing more than numbers...well who is left?

You can't blame Kenny Thomas for this one. So you have:

BJax -- no way in hell Noc was talking about him. May not be a great defender anymore, but nobody questions the effort.
Spencer -- maybe, does shot too much, although Spencer himself is quoted in the article as being frustrated by the defense, and he often shows hustle trying to block shots
Jason -- you can certainly question his competence, but not his effort
Greene -- oh I suppose Noc could be talking about him, he does like to chuck, but he barely hits the court so its hard to imagine that is the target
Beno -- well I suppose Noc could have been talking about him too -- he fits the profile. But he only played the first couple of games with Noc and has been out since.
Cisco -- I thought Ciscos's defense was shoddy Tuesday, but when Bobby/Noc are making those comments are they actually questioning his hustle? I see him more as just dumb and mistake prone than unwilling.
Kevin -- do you see why I went holdover player by holdover player now? Who is still here after the deadline, who often doesn't try on defense, and as the team's best offensive player, and now highest paid player, who might sit at the heart of any remaining shoot but not defend culture the team might have?

Funny, I read that quote this morning and thought the exact same thing. But one player alone does not create a culture.

 

[kingsnation]

Funny, I read that quote this morning and thought the exact same thing. But one player alone does not create a culture.

Yes you are right. But I think that is exactly why it was so important to acquire a Nocioni. Because it all starts with just one. And now we can build a culture/Kings team that thrives on defense, toughness and determination around Nocioni.