DeAaron Fox - meeting expectations?

Is DeAaron Fox meeting your expectations?

  • He's not quite as good as I thought he'd be.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm disappointed.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    97
  • Poll closed .
I put my hopes in the player of the first few weeks. The electric, 14/5/5+, ROY discussion type. Just because I’ve seen that player, on occasion.
Based on what we've seen for 50+games, The hot start of 14/5/5 was an anomaly for him. I don't think Fox is our saving grace...but that's ok. We're going to get that ROY-type player in the 2018 draft. By then, I think we will see an improved 2nd year Fox who'll put up at least 16/5/3.
 
What exactly makes you say Fox is durable? By all accounts he keeps tweaking this and that
It's probably about expectations. I expected Fox to miss half the season (or more) with injuries. He's done better than I expected. Even in last night's game, he got elbowed in the face! Some players would have gone to the locker room and called it a night. His willingness to play physical is a good sign. Although we'd all like to see him bulk up a bit.
 
It’s hard to gauge with Fox. I don’t see Killer instinct in him. He’s been inconsistent most games. I want to see him play with intensity for 4 qtrs. I have seen flashes here and there. That is the thing that worries me the most. I see Mitchell, Simmons, and Ball as all future stars.
 
Based on what?

I’m not reviewing one game. Look at old recordings and rewind the defensive breakdowns. It’s not just Fox for sure but too often Fox is not switching and we have two defenders on one offensive player or he’s helping where it’s not needed and guarding air while 3 point shooters bomb away. Most of those aren’t effort they are situational awareness. The other issue is Fox is not fighting over screens by anticipating them. He drops way under them and both Teague and Lilliard made him pay.
So you mention Teague and Lillard. One can assume you reviewed two games?
 
I think Wall is a good comparison. Both are PGs. Both are blazing fast. Both were high draft picks. Both were raw coming into the NBA. But think what you want.
Yes, Wall was bigger. Almost 200 lbs, if I recall. But Fox, while skinny, is long and surprisingly durable. Yes, Fox needs to get stronger. Wall may have had an NBA-ready body as a rookie.
Both were thought to have shooting deficiencies as rookies. At the same point their rookie years, I'm not sure that Fox isn't the better shooter. Wall is probably the better distributor.
The comparison works for me. And it suggests that Fox has a long way to go. But his upside is spectacular.
I think on the outside they seem similar but when you take a harder look, Wall has just had better tools since the get go. He was a much better facilitator as a rookie and got to the rim and the line at a much better rate than Fox. Also rebounded at twice the rate of Fox. Not to mention his defense was much better.

The only thing Fox does better than Wall is shoot threes. My point isn't that Fox will never be like Wall. It's that Fox has a huge hole to climb out of to be Wall. If everything goes well for Fox, I think year 3 is when he will match Wall's rookie year production. Rookie year Wall would be the Kings best player right now. Fox is statistically our worst player. He just has a long way to go and I personally don't think the odds are in his favor.
 
I think on the outside they seem similar but when you take a harder look, Wall has just had better tools since the get go. He was a much better facilitator as a rookie and got to the rim and the line at a much better rate than Fox. Also rebounded at twice the rate of Fox. Not to mention his defense was much better.

The only thing Fox does better than Wall is shoot threes. My point isn't that Fox will never be like Wall. It's that Fox has a huge hole to climb out of to be Wall. If everything goes well for Fox, I think year 3 is when he will match Wall's rookie year production. Rookie year Wall would be the Kings best player right now. Fox is statistically our worst player. He just has a long way to go and I personally don't think the odds are in his favor.
So out of the foxhole and over the wall? :cool:
 
Ok, Fox is 20 years old player...I do not have any expectation from him because i dont know where he play before.Just watching Kings games all season...My opininion is that he just isnt good enough at the time...I think that he dont have elementary knowledge in this sport...Where is he play before and which position?He can never ever be on playmaker position.For a 3 life
 
I think on the outside they seem similar but when you take a harder look, Wall has just had better tools since the get go. He was a much better facilitator as a rookie and got to the rim and the line at a much better rate than Fox. Also rebounded at twice the rate of Fox. Not to mention his defense was much better.

The only thing Fox does better than Wall is shoot threes. My point isn't that Fox will never be like Wall. It's that Fox has a huge hole to climb out of to be Wall. If everything goes well for Fox, I think year 3 is when he will match Wall's rookie year production. Rookie year Wall would be the Kings best player right now. Fox is statistically our worst player. He just has a long way to go and I personally don't think the odds are in his favor.
The disparity between Fox & Wall as rookies isn't as big as you think. It looks like it because Wall played 38 mins a game his rookie year. Their shooting is almost identical at fg% (40.9% for both), 3pt% ( Wall 29.6%, Fox 34%), 2pt% (42.5% both) & ft% (Wall 76.6%, Fox 73.6%).

Per 36 #s
FTA - Wall 5.4, Fox 3.6
Rbs - Wall 4.4, Fox 3.4
Asts - Wall 7.9, Fox 5.8
Stls - Wall 1.7, Fox 1.3
TOs - Wall 3.6, Fox 3.1
Pts - Wall 15.6, Fox 14.4

Possessions per 100
FTA - Wall 7.7, Fox 5.0
Rbs - Wall 6.2, Fox 4.8
Asts - Wall 11.3, Fox 8.1
Stls - Wall 2.4, Fox 1.8
TOs - Wall 5.1, Fox 4.4
Pts - Wall 22.2, Fox 20.9

As you can see Wall's #s are better, but not by much. It would also appear that his team played at a faster pace. I would also point out that Fox has 21 games to either improve or make his #s worse.
 
The only similarities Wall and Fox have is the speed and they both played at Kentucky for coach Cal.

Walls was a more polished player. He was stronger (had the body strength to play the position straight away) and as a result he was more advanced on the defensive end. Wall was always a better pure PG (i.e. had a better floor vision, better passer and creator for others).

I think comparisons to Conley are probably closer to the mark. Conley as a rookie could not shoot as well as he cna now. Fox will get better. He can be an all-star but there is a lot of work ahead.
 
I agree with those who've said that right now Fox isn't able to break down defenses. He has one directional, straight line speed which isn't as useful in the half court. Guys like Wall, Kyrie, even Tyreke seemed light years ahead in this regard when they came into the league.
 
OK, this is just an analogy so don't over react to the comparisons:)

Remember how Tyreke came into the League and took it by storm. ROY and all that? The you have a Player like Steve Nash who took a few seasons to develop. IMO Fox is worth some patience:)

One thing is for sure. When Fox is moving at full speed up the court the other teams defense keys on him. Of course they set up to defend the paint primarily. As Fox develops his game he will have more options. IMO he should pull up and take the mid-range shot more often. Analytics hates that but it still works for unbalancing defenses.

When Fox is one on one with another player his defense is good. The issue is when he is ran through a series of picks and team defense comes into play. I don't think the advanced stats define team defense very well or team play in general for that matter.

Lets see how Fox looks going forward.
 
OK, this is just an analogy so don't over react to the comparisons:)

Remember how Tyreke came into the League and took it by storm. ROY and all that? The you have a Player like Steve Nash who took a few seasons to develop. IMO Fox is worth some patience:)

One thing is for sure. When Fox is moving at full speed up the court the other teams defense keys on him. Of course they set up to defend the paint primarily. As Fox develops his game he will have more options. IMO he should pull up and take the mid-range shot more often. Analytics hates that but it still works for unbalancing defenses.

When Fox is one on one with another player his defense is good. The issue is when he is ran through a series of picks and team defense comes into play. I don't think the advanced stats define team defense very well or team play in general for that matter.

Lets see how Fox looks going forward.
I think this is fair. I agree he can pick up a player full court but struggles with team defense. On offense his shooting exceeds expectations while his ability to read the defense and set up teammates is less than expected.

We shall see how he progresses. He clearly has elite physical tools, we shall see if he has the B.B. IQ to go with it.
 
It’s hard to gauge with Fox. I don’t see Killer instinct in him. He’s been inconsistent most games. I want to see him play with intensity for 4 qtrs. I have seen flashes here and there. That is the thing that worries me the most. I see Mitchell, Simmons, and Ball as all future stars.
It worries me the most, too.

It seems to me to be an issue of the level of engagement he has with the game, which is why my tolerance is being tried with him. He’ll go quarters, deferring, having no impact or otherwise looking like Sacramento-era George Hill, then he’ll go a half quarter where he looks like the player of the first few weeks.. I think it was against Minnesota where he spent the first portion doing nothing and when he finally broke a defender down and aggressively made a play in the half court I could hear Joerger purposefully applauding the effort on TV

It’s not acceptable to me. Is he coasting through his rookie season? Is he having a hard time with the 82 game grind?

There is a palpable difference in moxie, energy, stats and mindset from what a lot of what he’s been doing lately, and much of the season, to the first few weeks. I don’t know if I can accept that he just got hot the first few weeks
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I really don't know what to say about some of these posts. Are we really doing this, judging the long term on short term results? Really? The PG position is, in my opinion, the most difficult postion to play, and seldom does any player come into the league, one year out of highschool, and excel. There are exceptions, but they're few. As pointed out, Steve Nash didn't have his breakout year until his 5th year in the league at age 26, and that was after 4 years of college.

Our own Mike Bibby, who went to college for 2 years, and shot just under 39% from the three in college, shot only 20.3% his rookie year in the NBA. He averaged 35.2 mpg his rookie year and 13.2 ppg, while shooting 43% overall. He added 6.5 assists and 1.6 steals. He was better his 2nd year, but didn't become the Bibby we all love until his second year with the Kings, and his fifth year in the league. In his rookie year, Kyle Lowry averaged 5.6 ppg, while shooting 36.8% overall, and 37.5% from the three. He also averaged 3.2 assists and 1.4 steals. But while Lowry had a very respectable 3 pt percentage his rookie year, he shot 27% or under from the three for the next four years.

By and large, most players that come in and excel their first year at the PG position, have played more than one year of college basketball. As I said, there are exceptions, like Kyrie Irving, who didn't even play one full year of college, but got off to a running start as a rookie. Even Chris Paul, who had two years of college at Wake Forrest, only shot 28.2% from the three his rookie year. Everyone has their own idea of what the ideal PG looks like, and if the player, Fox in this case, doesn't fit into that little box, then he's no good.

I suggest we let Fox become whoever he's going to be, and see how that fits, because I believe that fit is extremely important. Fox is most comfortable when going at top speed. Unfortunately you can't rocket down the floor successfully every time. So you have to pick your spots. What Fox has to do, is figure out how to use his speed in the half court. I watch Bogdanovic, who doesn't have Fox's athleticism, easily weave his way though traffic to the basket for a layup. Thats something that Fox has to learn. But no one learns it in one season.

Contrary to what some have posted, I've been impressed with Fox's progression. His 3 pt shot looks entirely different from college. Much more fluid and relaxed looking. His free throw percentage is climbing. I think next season, the ref's will give him more calls on his drives to the basket. He's getting the rookie treatment right now. I don't agree with that, but it happens to almost every rookie. Defensively he needs to get stronger, and personally, I thought he was more successful defending the P&R when he went under the pick. Because of his quickness. But maybe the coaching staff wants him to fight through picks.

Don't know if this has been posted, but in Fox's last 24 games, the games he's been starting, he's averaging 13.7 ppg, while shooting 42.0% overall, and 37% from the three. He's also raised his free throw percentage up 79%. Add in 5.2 assists against 2.5 turnovers, plus 2.4 rebounds and 1.3 steals. Point is, he slowing improving. Give him a summer to get stronger and work on parts of his game, and I think we'll see an even more improved player to start next season. Rome wasn't built in a day folks.
 
I'm sure a bunch of fans have a great on how Fox will develop.
Rome wasn't built in a day folks.
Rome hasn't been built in a decade here.

Some of us are sizing up what is currently our only possible cornerstone on the roster. Hoping for another good one 4 months. After that, it's a looooonnnggg wait.

That the conversation is occurring is reasonable.
 
I really don't know what to say about some of these posts. Are we really doing this, judging the long term on short term results? Really? The PG position is, in my opinion, the most difficult postion to play, and seldom does any player come into the league, one year out of highschool, and excel. There are exceptions, but they're few. As pointed out, Steve Nash didn't have his breakout year until his 5th year in the league at age 26, and that was after 4 years of college.

Our own Mike Bibby, who went to college for 2 years, and shot just under 39% from the three in college, shot only 20.3% his rookie year in the NBA. He averaged 35.2 mpg his rookie year and 13.2 ppg, while shooting 43% overall. He added 6.5 assists and 1.6 steals. He was better his 2nd year, but didn't become the Bibby we all love until his second year with the Kings, and his fifth year in the league. In his rookie year, Kyle Lowry averaged 5.6 ppg, while shooting 36.8% overall, and 37.5% from the three. He also averaged 3.2 assists and 1.4 steals. But while Lowry had a very respectable 3 pt percentage his rookie year, he shot 27% or under from the three for the next four years.

By and large, most players that come in and excel their first year at the PG position, have played more than one year of college basketball. As I said, there are exceptions, like Kyrie Irving, who didn't even play one full year of college, but got off to a running start as a rookie. Even Chris Paul, who had two years of college at Wake Forrest, only shot 28.2% from the three his rookie year. Everyone has their own idea of what the ideal PG looks like, and if the player, Fox in this case, doesn't fit into that little box, then he's no good.

I suggest we let Fox become whoever he's going to be, and see how that fits, because I believe that fit is extremely important. Fox is most comfortable when going at top speed. Unfortunately you can't rocket down the floor successfully every time. So you have to pick your spots. What Fox has to do, is figure out how to use his speed in the half court. I watch Bogdanovic, who doesn't have Fox's athleticism, easily weave his way though traffic to the basket for a layup. Thats something that Fox has to learn. But no one learns it in one season.

Contrary to what some have posted, I've been impressed with Fox's progression. His 3 pt shot looks entirely different from college. Much more fluid and relaxed looking. His free throw percentage is climbing. I think next season, the ref's will give him more calls on his drives to the basket. He's getting the rookie treatment right now. I don't agree with that, but it happens to almost every rookie. Defensively he needs to get stronger, and personally, I thought he was more successful defending the P&R when he went under the pick. Because of his quickness. But maybe the coaching staff wants him to fight through picks.

Don't know if this has been posted, but in Fox's last 24 games, the games he's been starting, he's averaging 13.7 ppg, while shooting 42.0% overall, and 37% from the three. He's also raised his free throw percentage up 79%. Add in 5.2 assists against 2.5 turnovers, plus 2.4 rebounds and 1.3 steals. Point is, he slowing improving. Give him a summer to get stronger and work on parts of his game, and I think we'll see an even more improved player to start next season. Rome wasn't built in a day folks.
24 games is a good amount to work with 13-5 are pretty good numbers especially his shooting 37% from 3 and 79% from ft. I can see him being an average 3point shooter 35-36% even on like 3 attempts.

We need to surround him with more shooters now.
 
Fox has ice in his veins. You can't teach that.

He wants the ball in his hands at the end of games and is not afraid to take the last shot.

Give the kid credit. He has already buried 3 game winning shots (or forced overtime) in the Kings lowly 19 wins this season.

The kid is a keeper. He's only going to get better every year! :)
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
Ball? Really. Cred shot.
Dunno why a lot of people around here bash Ball....

.... well...besides the fact that he's a Laker, his dad is a trollish idiot, and his shot is hella ugly...

Still, Ball can ball. He's outplayed Fox every meeting (at least in the NBA), and although his shot is too wonky to ever be a prolific scorer, he's gonna be a triple double threat for his whole career. And he's a better defender than Fox.

I'd say our guy has a higher ceiling, if he puts it together, but Ball has a way higher floor. Kid is already a positive impact for those Stinking Lakers. Can't say that about Fox just yet (odd clutch shot aside).

I have no problem giving Ball credit. Mostly because I'm optimistic that in 3 to 4 years, Fox will emerge as the better player and drop 40 on the Lakers on the reg!

Anyways, have at ye, homers!

*puts on flame suit*
 
Ball hasn't outplayed Fox every time. What, cuz he got a few more rebounds? please. He's surrounded by much better talent by the way and i think people forget that we literally just traded Cousins a year ago.

We need at least another draft or two to be at the current stage the Lakers are at. We dont have our Ingram, whatever the hell that will be
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Dunno why a lot of people around here bash Ball....

.... well...besides the fact that he's a Laker, his dad is a trollish idiot, and his shot is hella ugly...

Still, Ball can ball. He's outplayed Fox every meeting (at least in the NBA), and although his shot is too wonky to ever be a prolific scorer, he's gonna be a triple double threat for his whole career. And he's a better defender than Fox.

I'd say our guy has a higher ceiling, if he puts it together, but Ball has a way higher floor. Kid is already a positive impact for those Stinking Lakers. Can't say that about Fox just yet (odd clutch shot aside).

I have no problem giving Ball credit. Mostly because I'm optimistic that in 3 to 4 years, Fox will emerge as the better player and drop 40 on the Lakers on the reg!

Anyways, have at ye, homers!

*puts on flame suit*
I feel like people are giving Lonzo more credit than he's due for just being on a team with a rapidly improving Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, and the sudden surprise reappearance of "Next C-Webb" Julius Randle.
 
I don't think we can really compare Fox and Ball fairly. Ball was given free reign before he even stepped out on the court and when you compare it to our system, it's apples and oranges. Fox got yanked on the regular for mistakes and he definitely (even now) did not have free reign. However, he's slowly becoming more consistent, averaging more points with higher percentages. It's a sign of progress, albeit a small one. He's also becoming more aggressive, taking more shots and showing some fearlessness. He got his shot sent back to him and then drove to the paint again for a floater.

He's not the passer that Ball is, but he will average more points. He will also be a good defender, just a different type of defender than Ball (stealing cross court passes, picking people's pocket, etc.). Fox needs to improve his strength and when coupled with some experience, I don't think he will have issues guarding people. What I am looking for out of Fox the rest of the season is his passing game and continuing to improve his shooting and decision making.
 
I really don't know what to say about some of these posts. Are we really doing this, judging the long term on short term results? Really? The PG position is, in my opinion, the most difficult postion to play, and seldom does any player come into the league, one year out of highschool, and excel. There are exceptions, but they're few. As pointed out, Steve Nash didn't have his breakout year until his 5th year in the league at age 26, and that was after 4 years of college.

Our own Mike Bibby, who went to college for 2 years, and shot just under 39% from the three in college, shot only 20.3% his rookie year in the NBA. He averaged 35.2 mpg his rookie year and 13.2 ppg, while shooting 43% overall. He added 6.5 assists and 1.6 steals. He was better his 2nd year, but didn't become the Bibby we all love until his second year with the Kings, and his fifth year in the league. In his rookie year, Kyle Lowry averaged 5.6 ppg, while shooting 36.8% overall, and 37.5% from the three. He also averaged 3.2 assists and 1.4 steals. But while Lowry had a very respectable 3 pt percentage his rookie year, he shot 27% or under from the three for the next four years.

By and large, most players that come in and excel their first year at the PG position, have played more than one year of college basketball. As I said, there are exceptions, like Kyrie Irving, who didn't even play one full year of college, but got off to a running start as a rookie. Even Chris Paul, who had two years of college at Wake Forrest, only shot 28.2% from the three his rookie year. Everyone has their own idea of what the ideal PG looks like, and if the player, Fox in this case, doesn't fit into that little box, then he's no good.

I suggest we let Fox become whoever he's going to be, and see how that fits, because I believe that fit is extremely important. Fox is most comfortable when going at top speed. Unfortunately you can't rocket down the floor successfully every time. So you have to pick your spots. What Fox has to do, is figure out how to use his speed in the half court. I watch Bogdanovic, who doesn't have Fox's athleticism, easily weave his way though traffic to the basket for a layup. Thats something that Fox has to learn. But no one learns it in one season.

Contrary to what some have posted, I've been impressed with Fox's progression. His 3 pt shot looks entirely different from college. Much more fluid and relaxed looking. His free throw percentage is climbing. I think next season, the ref's will give him more calls on his drives to the basket. He's getting the rookie treatment right now. I don't agree with that, but it happens to almost every rookie. Defensively he needs to get stronger, and personally, I thought he was more successful defending the P&R when he went under the pick. Because of his quickness. But maybe the coaching staff wants him to fight through picks.

Don't know if this has been posted, but in Fox's last 24 games, the games he's been starting, he's averaging 13.7 ppg, while shooting 42.0% overall, and 37% from the three. He's also raised his free throw percentage up 79%. Add in 5.2 assists against 2.5 turnovers, plus 2.4 rebounds and 1.3 steals. Point is, he slowing improving. Give him a summer to get stronger and work on parts of his game, and I think we'll see an even more improved player to start next season. Rome wasn't built in a day folks.
Who is saying he won’t get better? But the discussion was is he meeting expectations. In shooting, Fox is doing better than expected but in play making he is doing much worse. In an area, he should excel he is the worst among rookie point guards.

Look at his passing percentages off of drives.

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives...IVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerExperience=Rookie

Fox is average in passes for a rookie 2 guard but below average in shooting percentage.

In terms of pass % for a point guard Fox is below every other rookie point guard in the league. So while others are using their driving ability to break down defenses and create opportunities for teammates, Fox forces bad shots. For a team built with good perimeter shooters this tendency is extremely bad because he isn’t getting the ball to teammates in a position of strength.
 
I feel like people are giving Lonzo more credit than he's due for just being on a team with a rapidly improving Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, and the sudden surprise reappearance of "Next C-Webb" Julius Randle.
Kuzma was only good in Summer League cause of Lonzo, remember that haha comical.
 
Who is saying he won’t get better? But the discussion was is he meeting expectations. In shooting, Fox is doing better than expected but in play making he is doing much worse. In an area, he should excel he is the worst among rookie point guards.

Look at his passing percentages off of drives.

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?CF=DRIVES*GE*50&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Totals&sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerExperience=Rookie

Fox is average in passes for a rookie 2 guard but below average in shooting percentage.

In terms of pass % for a point guard Fox is below every other rookie point guard in the league. So while others are using their driving ability to break down defenses and create opportunities for teammates, Fox forces bad shots. For a team built with good perimeter shooters this tendency is extremely bad because he isn’t getting the ball to teammates in a position of strength.
I've seen a bunch of good Fox assists go unrewarded because the player he was passing to missed the open shot or passed it up. Probably 2-4 of those a game.

When Fox drives he is a blur, I'm not so sure that him going to the rack isn't the best option.

He needs to get better at finishing at the rim, but passing the ball once you are by your defender, isn't always the best option. Once he's gone by the defender, I think his best option may be to try to make the basket himself.

Fox just needs to get better at finishing the drive or getting to the line on those plays.
 
I've seen a bunch of good Fox assists go unrewarded because the player he was passing to missed the open shot or passed it up. Probably 2-4 of those a game.

When Fox drives he is a blur, I'm not so sure that him going to the rack isn't the best option.

He needs to get better at finishing at the rim, but passing the ball once you are by your defender, isn't always the best option. Once he's gone by the defender, I think his best option may be to try to make the basket himself.

Fox just needs to get better at finishing the drive or getting to the line on those plays.
Not sure how your point applies when I was quoting passes made not assists.

Yes, Fox has players miss when they shoot but given the Kings shoot 3’s at the second highest rate in the NBA logically that would seem to be less likely to happen to Fox than other players. As for decision making doesn’t it depend on what other defenders are doing? If you watch them you will see they are all collapsing. Fox either drives or makes a drop off pass so defenders can freely come off perimeter players. If Fox made those perimeter players play honest, then his and the other bigs would have a higher shooting percentage. Some of Fox’s missed assists are his own fault because opposing defenses don’t have to guard the 3 point line on the drive.
 
Not sure how your point applies when I was quoting passes made not assists.

Yes, Fox has players miss when they shoot but given the Kings shoot 3’s at the second highest rate in the NBA logically that would seem to be less likely to happen to Fox than other players. As for decision making doesn’t it depend on what other defenders are doing? If you watch them you will see they are all collapsing. Fox either drives or makes a drop off pass so defenders can freely come off perimeter players. If Fox made those perimeter players play honest, then his and the other bigs would have a higher shooting percentage. Some of Fox’s missed assists are his own fault because opposing defenses don’t have to guard the 3 point line on the drive.
Not rate, percentage. And it's his own fault for not keeping the defense honest by not shooting more 3s. He will figure it out. I'm not as worried as others.