I'm not sure I'd call those low level starter numbers, especially from a young player not used to starting. In fact, those numbers (with the exception of rbs and stls) are about what Bonzi put up last year. Bonzi had a good season and a great playoffs but if you're going to lose him, you might as well get back value in return. If you had to list the Kings offseason needs, the proposed trade addresses quite a few of them. And bottom line, I'm sure if a better deal was on the table, Geoff would take it. All in all, I'm for it.
Current Bonzi Status According to ESPN Insider + Kings Interested in Songaila?
- Thread starter reyes13
- Start date
I'm not sure I'd call those low level starter numbers, especially from a young player not used to starting. In fact, those numbers (with the exception of rbs and stls) are about what Bonzi put up last year. Bonzi had a good season and a great playoffs but if you're going to lose him, you might as well get back value in return. If you had to list the Kings offseason needs, the proposed trade addresses quite a few of them. And bottom line, I'm sure if a better deal was on the table, Geoff would take it. All in all, I'm for it.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
What else would you call them?
Teams with guys who put up better numbers last year would include Seattle, Golden State, Clippers, Lakers, Suns, Chicago, Toronto, Indiana, Cleveland, San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, Atlanta, Milwaulkee, Washington, New Jersey, Miami and probably a few others I have not mentioned. If you have a 13.7ppg 4.7rpg guy starting at your OG spot, you are flat out looking to upgrade. That is not to say Kevin will never improve, merely to say perspective! Low level starter numebrs. Not second coming numbers.
And no, they weren't as good as Bonzi's numebrs either, particualrly in areas where we claim to want to improve -- Bonzi was dominant on the glass, and highly disruptivce in the passing lanes as always, as a starter 14.6ppg 7.6rpg 2.9apg 1.8spg 0.5bpg.
But I am always acutely aware of the attempt to distort the argument here into a Bonzi VS. Kevin thing. As if the proposal is to sign Bonzi and dump Kevin for a second round pick. The proposal is to have Bonzi AND Kevin until Kevin shows that he is significantly more than just a 13.7ppg guy.
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Keep in mind that those numbers were put up in the first season Kevin Martin actually got minutes. Other very big name players put up similar numbers in their first few seasons. I'm not saying that Martin is going to be a superstar, but you're pre-judging him just as much as the fanboys are.
So for the extra point, 3 boards and steal (minus the better shooting and less tos) Bonzi is that much better a starter than Kevin. I'm not trying to make it a Bonzi vs. Kevin thing but you are claiming that Kevin's stats are subpar while Bonzi's aren't. Since their stats are close, why not keep one and use the other to really improve some of the areas where we need help while creating greater cap flexibility and in my opinion improving intangibles.
And with regards to the other teams with better stats from the 2 guard spot:
Seattle (ray allen)
Golden State (Jason Richardson)
Lakers (Kobe)
Toronto (Mo Pete)
Chicago (Ben Gordan)
Indiana (Stephen Jackson)
Cleveland (Lebron James)
San Antonio (Ginobli)
Boston (Paul Pierce)
Detroit (Rip Hamilton)
Atlanta (Joe Johnson)
Millwaukee (Michael Redd)
Washington (Caron Butler)
New Jersey (Vince Carter)
Miami (Dwayne Wade)
So about half the league had a better statistical sg. However, if you look at that list a good number are superstars or their teams leading option while Kmart is probably the fourth option. And more importantly that list of players with better stats than Kevin also all have better stats than Bonzi. the better argument for this trade would be to look at our back up pg and c and see how those compare to the league.
walker60
Bench
^^ Good points. Another thing to look at is the fact that K-Mart's numbers will improve as he has not even reached his peak yet. He is going to get better in each of the next couple of seasons. Bonzi is a good player, but he will simply not get better as a player at this point in his career. As K-Mart progresses, I don't see why he can't make up the 1 ppg, 1 assist, and 1 steal per game. If we trade Bonzi for a rebounder like Foster, then that will make up for the 3 rebounds.
Throw in the fact that K-Mart makes less than $2 Million, and that Bonzi will make about $7-8 Million and I think it makes sense to deal Bonzi for a solid big man.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
And no, again, the attempt to distort. In your case I think unintentionally, but nonetheless:
Kevin Martin is a low level starter who BTW was one of the major options for many of his starts because of our injury woes (Bonzi, SAR, Peja).
Bonzi Wells is a midlevel starter, but a midlevel starter with some intimidation factor attached -- people gameplan around his abilities. He has been a Top 10 OG before in his career. Wasn't too far off last year.
But here is the diference betwen a Kevin jocker and a Bonzi apologist -- the Bonzi apologist is looking to bring Bonzi Wells AND Kevin Martin to make up for the lack fo a Wadeesque character at the position through superior depth of talent and versatility. The Kevin jocker is just a new breed of Peja jocker and is looking to clear out all the other competing talent so their guy can maximize his numbers. The only people making it Bonzi VS. Kevin, are the Kevin jockers. The Bonzi apologists are looking for Bonzi AND Kevin, which logic would dictate is considerably superior to either player alone.
Jerryaki
Starter
that's pretty accurate; bonzi terrorized the spurs in the playoffs.
sometimes stats can't capture everythng, such as the morale/psychological effect of having a bonzi wells, a ron artest, a d-wade, lebron, etc. on your team.
kevin is cool and growing, but i don't think any opposing team is that worried about the kid.
Not about his size, anyway. I do think, however, that teams are actually going to be concerned about his quickness. If Kevin gets half a step on someone, they're gonna be very hard pressed to catch him.
I'm done comparing the two as I couldn't care less whether I'm either of the "categories" though to argue that people plan around Bonzi (with the exception of the Spurs series) is a little bit of a reach. The issue isn't whether you keep one or both as I would be fine keeping both if the situation worked out. But if you have a player that wants more than you are willing to pay, can trade that player for other parts that help your team, and have a young player that is already a capable starter and has the potential to be even better, that's a move I make.
I view this board quite a bit and believe you to be a passionate and informed fan. You're obviously upset about this move and somewhat critical of anyone that supports it. So without being argumentative, what would you do here, assuming Bonzi wants more than we're willing to pay? At that point, arguing that a Bonzi and Kevin combination would work is kind of pointless.
Jerryaki
Starter
that's probably where the disagreement lies, whether or not each of you are willing to pay to keep bonzi.
if bonzi wants more than you're willing to pay, definitely sign and trade (obvious); but "what you're willing to pay" can fluctuate very quickly. it's just whether or not anyone thinks the maloofs will pay him.
if bonzi wants more than you're willing to pay, definitely sign and trade (obvious); but "what you're willing to pay" can fluctuate very quickly. it's just whether or not anyone thinks the maloofs will pay him.
I think we need to be a little more realistic about our players. I'm not one to bash Bonzi and hold Kevin up as the next big thing, but did we really just put Bonzi in that list of guys. (I won't even touch the claim that Bonzi and Ron give a team a morale boost-there's a difference between adding toughness and being a team asset-if you don't agree look at how many pacer fans are dreading the 2nd coming of ron-ron).
Bonzi is a unique player that when he's on (like the spurs series) can be a tough matchup. But we're talking about a guy with career stats of 13 points and 5 rbs, mostly on subpar-average teams. So if we lose him, we do lose some attributes we need but it's in all likelihood not the end of the world.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Jerryaki
Starter
granted, the degree of effect is out of scale, but i don't think it's off to say that bonzi had a pretty positive mental effect on the other players this season, more so than having a kevin martin in the same spot next season would. he's a veteran and a tough one, so it's natural.
and i completely agree, it's not the end of the world if we lose him, but i'd try pretty hard to keep both him and kevin in the line-up.
and i completely agree, it's not the end of the world if we lose him, but i'd try pretty hard to keep both him and kevin in the line-up.
nbrans
All-Star
He missed them once a couple of years back. His team made it, but Bonzi didn't.
walker60
Bench
Wow, that is a lot generalizations. I guess I'm a "Kevin jocker" and I just want to get rid of everybody else so K-Mart can get his numbers. As long as K-Mart gets 20 ppg I'll be happy...
Here's another difference you can add to your list. Kevin Jockers are realistic in the fact that any improvements made to the frontcourt will probably have to be made through a S & T using Bonzi.
If we can sign Bonzi, get a couple of legit defensive big men, and find a backup PG, all the while not having to pay the luxury tax, then so be it. But I do not think that's possible. If Bonzi is back, we may be able to swap KT for another unwanted big, but I really do not see how that will address any of our needs. I'd just like to see us use our extremely deep positional talent at SG and turn it into depth at other positions (C and PG).
Going from Bonzi/Martin to Martin/Garcia or Douby at SG is a dip in talent. But, for example, going from Potato to Foster, and Hart to Sarunas is a nice upgrade. Wells is a good player, but seing how we have so many SG's, I don't see why we shouldn't move him to patch up some of our holes.
R
Rome
Guest
What I don't get is why people are complaining that Kevin Martin is going to lose minutes...
Kevin will get his 24-28 minutes a game. He will average around 11-14 pts off the bench which could really help because of our thin bench and lack of depth.
Bonzi is a must keep if the Kings want to get anywhere near a championship. He's a very unique guard because with his height and body he's very effective in the post, can rebound very well for a 2 guard, brings a lot of hustle and intensity, and completely takes over in the playoffs. I mean did you see what he did to Bruce Bowen? He literely owned him which not a lot of people do against Bruce. That being said im totally towards keeping Bonzi in any way possible. Especially if we have the same front court as last season...
Kevin will get his 24-28 minutes a game. He will average around 11-14 pts off the bench which could really help because of our thin bench and lack of depth.
Bonzi is a must keep if the Kings want to get anywhere near a championship. He's a very unique guard because with his height and body he's very effective in the post, can rebound very well for a 2 guard, brings a lot of hustle and intensity, and completely takes over in the playoffs. I mean did you see what he did to Bruce Bowen? He literely owned him which not a lot of people do against Bruce. That being said im totally towards keeping Bonzi in any way possible. Especially if we have the same front court as last season...
Wow, that is a lot generalizations. I guess I'm a "Kevin jocker" and I just want to get rid of everybody else so K-Mart can get his numbers. As long as K-Mart gets 20 ppg I'll be happy...
Here's another difference you can add to your list. Kevin Jockers are realistic in the fact that any improvements made to the frontcourt will probably have to be made through a S & T using Bonzi.
If we can sign Bonzi, get a couple of legit defensive big men, and find a backup PG, all the while not having to pay the luxury tax, then so be it. But I do not think that's possible. If Bonzi is back, we may be able to swap KT for another unwanted big, but I really do not see how that will address any of our needs. I'd just like to see us use our extremely deep positional talent at SG and turn it into depth at other positions (C and PG).
Going from Bonzi/Martin to Martin/Garcia or Douby at SG is a dip in talent. But, for example, going from Potato to Foster, and Hart to Sarunas is a nice upgrade. Wells is a good player, but seing how we have so many SG's, I don't see why we shouldn't move him to patch up some of our holes.
For the most part, simply wanting Kevin to be successful doesn't make one a "Kevin jocker." Some people have taken their enthusiasm a bit too far perhaps, but despite what Brick says sometimes there is a tremendous difference between most Martin fans and the Peja fanatics who were almost unbelievable in their desire to put Peja first and foremost in any and all ways.
I think the only real difference of opinion among most is whether or not Kevin is ready right now or whether he needs a bit more time to prove he is truly ready for the starting 2-guard position on the Sacramento Kings.
nbrans
All-Star
I think Kevin is ready -- barring a major move the Kings aren't contenders anyway, and so the only real hope in the Kings going to the next level is if Kevin becomes a star or superstar. Might as well give him the starting job and see what happens. I'm not a fan of shipping out Bonzi just for the heck of it, but it's not as if we have such high hopes for the season next year that we can't afford to see what happens with Kevin's development. After next year we should know where things stand.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wow, that is a lot generalizations. I guess I'm a "Kevin jocker" and I just want to get rid of everybody else so K-Mart can get his numbers. As long as K-Mart gets 20 ppg I'll be happy...
Here's another difference you can add to your list. Kevin Jockers are realistic in the fact that any improvements made to the frontcourt will probably have to be made through a S & T using Bonzi.
If we can sign Bonzi, get a couple of legit defensive big men, and find a backup PG, all the while not having to pay the luxury tax, then so be it. But I do not think that's possible. If Bonzi is back, we may be able to swap KT for another unwanted big, but I really do not see how that will address any of our needs. I'd just like to see us use our extremely deep positional talent at SG and turn it into depth at other positions (C and PG).
Going from Bonzi/Martin to Martin/Garcia or Douby at SG is a dip in talent. But, for example, going from Potato to Foster, and Hart to Sarunas is a nice upgrade. Wells is a good player, but seing how we have so many SG's, I don't see why we shouldn't move him to patch up some of our holes.
This might be your best post on the subject to date.
However it still implies that you would have traded Pippen to patch up those "holes" at C and PG the Bulls had with middling inferior talents.
I'm a little confused by this. How exactly are you comparing the two players/teams?
So if they guy averaged close to 14pts a game on only 9 shots, while shooting 51% from the field, and 42% from 3pts, don't you think he would easily average 15+ pts if he got 10-12 shots, and no he was not the primary option while bonzi, peja, and shareef were hurt. He was always the 3rd or 4th option. Secondly look at Bonzis career stats, he averaged career highs in steals, rebounds, blocks etc last year with the Kings WHILE HE WAS IN A CONTRACT YEAR, does Eric Dampier ring a bell? On top of that he missed 30 games, I am sorry there is no point in paying 8 plus million to a guy who averages like 60 games a year, when we have a guy who is 7 yrs younger, will make 6-7 million less for pretty much similar performance. Also besides that game winner, check out GAME 2 against the spurs when artest was out 26pts 8rbs. Kevin Has shown he is a capable starter in this league, and I am not down for a 5 yr 40+ plus million guy who will halt Kevins growth, or potentially be a 8 million dollar a year bench player if indeed Kevin does start. Doesn't make sense at all. Secondly interior D, and a productive back up PG is what we lacked immensely last year, and Bonzi could provide us with both through a trade.
walker60
Bench
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The Bulls dynasties won on the strength of their 2/3s. In their second dynasty having an embarrassment of riches with Toni Kukoc coming off the bench behind Pippen. On the other hand they had an old off guard with one knee playing Pg, and Luc Longley as a center. Clearly the solution was to trade away their excess strength at the 2/3 to patch those holes at 1 and 5. After all, the key to winning is to be mediocre at as many positions as possible.
hammystyle
Starter
I've heard the term "Kevin Jocker", but the Bonzi jocking is getting a little out of control. He played hard in his contract year and had his best year since his last contract year. It was a good season and then he topped it with a GREAT six game playoff series. But he's not some playoff dominator. It was his best performance ever by far, his career playoff averages are right in line with his regular season averages. He's probably not going to average 7.7 rebounds again, more likely around 6. It is likely that if we signed him to a 5 year contract the year we just got from him would be the best year we ever get from him.
My point is that he is a good, solid player, not a great player, and NOT someone who is irreplacable. In fact, we already have a replacement (Kevin Jocker here). You can't compare trading Pippen, Jordan, or even Toni Kukoc in his prime to SIGN and trading Bonzi right now.
My point is that he is a good, solid player, not a great player, and NOT someone who is irreplacable. In fact, we already have a replacement (Kevin Jocker here). You can't compare trading Pippen, Jordan, or even Toni Kukoc in his prime to SIGN and trading Bonzi right now.
It's a little misleading to look at Bonzi's 'career averages' when he was only getting starters minutes for two of those years. He showed steady improvement in Portland, and had a comparable season in 02-03 as he had the year before in his contract year. Obviously the situation in Memphis was different and then he came here and performed closer to his two years as a starter in Portland. And it's not like his performance last year is ridiculously out of line with his career numbers. The rebounding went up considerably, but that isn't too surprising considering the frontcourt he was playing with. Other than that, nothing jumps out at you. All his shooting percentages were down from his career averages, the 3pt% enough so that it might be an abberation.
And I think most of the people who support bringing Bonzi back do so because of his performance in the regular season as well as the playoffs. Bibby's had some exceptional playoff performances too, but he still gets it done during the regular season. Certainly Bonzi can't be expected to dominate in the playoffs every year, against every team, but he's a good solid player, brings a lot of toughness and energy, and creates a lot of problems defensively for other teams. Martin is definately coming up, but he's a totally different player with different strengths and weaknesses. Offenses thrive on versatility. You find the opponents weakness and exploit it. If Bonzi leaves, we're looking very one-dimensional at SG. Artest and Bonzi is a solid pair at the wing, with the possibility of being dominant. As much as I like what Martin brings to the team, I don't see an Artest/Martin pairing as dominating anybody.
And I think most of the people who support bringing Bonzi back do so because of his performance in the regular season as well as the playoffs. Bibby's had some exceptional playoff performances too, but he still gets it done during the regular season. Certainly Bonzi can't be expected to dominate in the playoffs every year, against every team, but he's a good solid player, brings a lot of toughness and energy, and creates a lot of problems defensively for other teams. Martin is definately coming up, but he's a totally different player with different strengths and weaknesses. Offenses thrive on versatility. You find the opponents weakness and exploit it. If Bonzi leaves, we're looking very one-dimensional at SG. Artest and Bonzi is a solid pair at the wing, with the possibility of being dominant. As much as I like what Martin brings to the team, I don't see an Artest/Martin pairing as dominating anybody.
sidney
Starter
With Bonzi and Ron, we have the toughest wings in the league. It adds a tone and style to our team. Softer, smaller, or finesse teams will be taken to task by us.
Those two are our solid duo to mold the team around. We have a solid point in Bibby and an up and coming quick bencher in Martin. All of a sudden we compete with anyone with our back court - defensively and offensively. If Bonzi leaves, then it's just Ron and some softies. If, however, we add an impact big guy up front to that duo we further add to that strength.
Bottom line, you have to the the best at some areas of the game to sniff the title. Adding a couple backup benchers for an impact player like Bonzi only brings us closer to mediocrity. Not to mention being a boring plain vanilla team to watch.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
Good points about how Bonzi helps set a tough tone for the team. Sure he misses some games, and sure it was a contract year and yes he did REALLY step it up in the play offs. BUT even in his off seaons (on bad teams) his numbers do little to describe the intensity he brings. Bonzi and Artest are ferocious physical playres that actually strike fear in their oponents. Look at what other teams and the talking heads were saying about the 8th seeded Kings BEFORE the play offs. Im sorry you just don't/can't let a guy like this go UNLESS you are getting something comprable in return.
I said before and I'll say again simply letting LAST YEARS line up practice and play together they are stronger conteders than last year. (NOTE: I am NOT advocating sitting pat and not trading for UP GRADES) Bonzi and Ron and their ATTITUDE are a key to success for this squad. Artest knows it and has be very vocal about bringing Bonzi back. If the price you pay to get him and keep for the next few years is contract that sours on the back side so be it... not the first or last time that has happend and IF this team is going to be contenders THIS season it will be with Bonzi and Ron driving defenses nuts.
I said before and I'll say again simply letting LAST YEARS line up practice and play together they are stronger conteders than last year. (NOTE: I am NOT advocating sitting pat and not trading for UP GRADES) Bonzi and Ron and their ATTITUDE are a key to success for this squad. Artest knows it and has be very vocal about bringing Bonzi back. If the price you pay to get him and keep for the next few years is contract that sours on the back side so be it... not the first or last time that has happend and IF this team is going to be contenders THIS season it will be with Bonzi and Ron driving defenses nuts.
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