Concern about Webber

[uolj]

The only problem is that you're saying Webber should try and change his game for three quarters and then revert back in the 4th.

Any time you start to restrict a player's choices (such as limiting him to a couple of jumpers a quarter) you reduce his effectiveness on the court. You can't tell someone who CAN hit the "less than perfect shot" not to take it and to pass it to someone like Miller who passes up wide open shots at inexplicable times for reasons I don't even think he knows...

I completely disagree. It is common practice to have different strategies at different points in the game. I wouldn't want anybody to "limit" his jumpers - that is the desired effect, not what should be changed itself. Webber has often played what some would call a "smart" game by not shooting as often and by making a concerted effort to pass to teammates. That is all I want. I only want it to be like that in the beginning of the game because by the end, I have faith that he will make good decisions to either pass or shoot as necessary.

Rather than say Webber should change, perhaps we should be focusing on the other players on the court who aren't doing all they can to get open so there IS another viable option. This has always been a problem with the Kings when Webber has been playing at a high level. They get the ball to him and then they stand around, waiting for him to create the shot and make the points. That is NOT Webber's fault; if anything, it's something RA really needs to emphasize during the times when the team is sitting around and watching the game tapes. Webber will try to get the score; that's his nature and that's what we want him to do. He will also get the ball to other players, if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. (His assist numbers bear that out.)

I, and others, are not saying it is anybody's fault. It is not about blame. It is about making an effort to make small changes to improve the team. In this particular instance, we are talking about a small change Webber can make on his own or through Adelman's instructions.


The point is that each player can do extra things to improve the team. In this thread, the concern is that Webber is taking too many shots without getting enough points from those shots. One way to improve that is for him to make a concsious effort, as he has done many times already, to pass. I believe that the Kings would be more effective if the general startegy for each game would be to have Webber look to make a couple extra passes in the first half that he might not make currently. Again, it would help just that much extra in getting others involved, getting the opponents to focus elsewhere, and allow Webber to be more effective and efficient with his own scoring.

 

[HndsmCelt]

So basically we are pretty much in agreement that the rest of the team needs to quit playing Green Plastic Army Men™, right?

Yup.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Absolutely.

 

[rhuber]

it's a wrap

 

[VF21]

I completely disagree. It is common practice to have different strategies at different points in the game. I wouldn't want anybody to "limit" his jumpers - that is the desired effect, not what should be changed itself. Webber has often played what some would call a "smart" game by not shooting as often and by making a concerted effort to pass to teammates. That is all I want. I only want it to be like that in the beginning of the game because by the end, I have faith that he will make good decisions to either pass or shoot as necessary.

I, and others, are not saying it is anybody's fault. It is not about blame. It is about making an effort to make small changes to improve the team. In this particular instance, we are talking about a small change Webber can make on his own or through Adelman's instructions.


The point is that each player can do extra things to improve the team. In this thread, the concern is that Webber is taking too many shots without getting enough points from those shots. One way to improve that is for him to make a concsious effort, as he has done many times already, to pass. I believe that the Kings would be more effective if the general startegy for each game would be to have Webber look to make a couple extra passes in the first half that he might not make currently. Again, it would help just that much extra in getting others involved, getting the opponents to focus elsewhere, and allow Webber to be more effective and efficient with his own scoring.

I don't really think we're in disagreement. Kingsgurl made a very good comment:

Webber did attempt too many shots, last night. I don't like to see it, when he's missing he should try to get everyone else involved, then come back to it. I don't have as big a concern over the mindset he displayed of trying to get himself going or trying to carry the team as I do with our other big gun, who by the end of the 3rd quarter was passing up open looks and looking like he didn't WANT the ball. THAT is a huge concern to me.

She and I talked about that last night. Yes, Webber tried too many shots last night and it's something he and the team are going to have to work through, especially on nights when he's bouncing numerous clunkers off the front of the rim, a clear indication of tired legs.

You say Webber should make a more conscious effort to pass. Well, that's where my GPAM™ comment comes in. Yes, he should make more passes but it's hard to do that if the other four people on the court are frozen in time, staring at the rafters, hidden behind two defenders, etc. The onus is on them as much as Webber to correct the situation IMHO.

 

[Gary]

BINGO!
There was no offensive flow from the starting unit out there last night for most of the game.
and Brad needs to TAKE those open jumpers. Perhaps he secretly reads the boards and is afraid he will come under the same sort of fire as Chris does

Double BINGO I know Webber isn't the only person on the floor so the others should speak up, take more shots, and let themselves be heard.

But then again, when you have someone saying "THIS IS MY TEAM!" they might feel a bit intimidated or something? But I would hope they would be big boys, and not let that bug them

Anyhow, something just doesn't feel right with this team, and a change somewhere needs to happen.

 

[uolj]

I only completely disagreed with the part I quoted.

I actually agree with your GPAM™ point, I think the other Kings can and should focus on moving more without the ball, and they often get lazy and don't. However, I think that changes can be made to Webber's offensive strategy that is separate from eliminating the GPAM's™. Those changes are more interesting to talk about in my opinion, at least in this thread.

I also don't feel the need to defend Webber in this instance, because I don't blame him for doing something wrong. I just think he and Adelman can make a small change to his strategy to make things even better. Gary's point and Bricklayer's stats show that Webber could be more effective in his scoring. I think my idea would help that while helping the rest of the team's play also.

 

[VF21]

Okay, I concede that last paragraph...



There is always room for improvement and I think last night made it obvious that sometimes you have to do some things differently. If RA and Webber can take something from that game to make the team better, I'm all for it!

 

[Kingsgurl]

But then again, when you have someone saying "THIS IS MY TEAM!" they might feel a bit intimidated or something?

Uh, what? You think they are out there playing and actually thinking about whose team it is? Or who said what? Intimidated by what?

Anyhow, something just doesn't feel right with this team, and a change somewhere needs to happen

Your opinion, and you are intitled to it. I disagree. I like the mix of youth and vets and think by the end of the season they should be clicking really well.

 

[KP]

Why?

--Man! One bad game, (on a back to back no less) and this thread pops up again this fast? Webb is 13th in the league in effeciency rating per game, 12th per 48 min. What else do you want? His shooting % is up from last year and still climbing, until last night. I would also point out he has a higher fg% than Peja but Celt already did. When he's shooting bad he tends to press, but for the most part(last night being an exception) he's even been doing that less. If he can get up to around 47-48% and keeps hitting clutch shots I'll be happy.

 

[keflanag]

He is probally the 10th best power forward in the league, yet he jacks them up like he is the #1 "go-to" guy in the whole league.

I challenge you to name 9 better PFs in the game today without getting laughed at. I'll make it easy and get you started (although I don't agree with all on this list, I'm sure you will):

Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudemire

 

[KP]

I challenge you to name 9 better PFs in the game today without getting laughed at. I'll make it easy and get you started (although I don't agree with all on this list, I'm sure you will):

Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudemire

Technically... KG is a Small Forward

 

[vladetomiller]

let's take a look at those scorers again:

Stoudemire: 26.4pts 16.3FGAs 9.9FTAs/2 = 5.0 TOTAL = 21.3 possessions
1.24 pt/poss
Duncan: 21.8pts 16.6FGAs 7.8FTAs/2 = 3.9 TOTAL = 20.5 possessions
1.06 pt/poss
Randolph: 20.1pts 17.2FGAs 6.0FTAs/2 = 3.0 TOTAL = 20.2 possessions
0.99 pt/poss
Garnett:23.9pts 18.0FGAs 7.6FTAs/2=3.8 TOTAL = 21.8 possessions
1.09 pt/poss
O'Neal: 25.2pts 18.7FGAs 9.9FTAs/2=5.0 TOTAL = 23.7 possessions
1.06 pt/poss
Gasol: 19.4pts 13.2FGAs 7.6FTAs/2=3.8 TOTAL = 17.0 possessions
1.14 pt/poss
Nowitzki: 26.7pts 18.8FGAs 10.0FTAs/2=5.0 TOTAL = 23.8 possessions
1.12 pt/poss
Webber: 20.6pts 19.8FGAs 3.6FTAs/2=1.8 TOTAL = 21.6 possessions
0.95 pt/poss

The difference is not that huge. Especially not when you consider that Gasol and especially Stoudemire really do not belong on that list. They are finishers who get a huge percentage of their shots off of the work of their teamamtes. The other guys all have responsibility of being thrown the ball and doing the creating for themselves (or in Webber and garnett's case, for others as well).

Interesting stat, how do you say that Amare and Gasol are finishers from that stat (maybe you are saying that from watching the games and then it becomes your personal opinion). The few games that i watched Amare did create a few shots for himself and it wasnt like he was always dependent on Nash.

What i see as very interesting is that out of 21.6 posessions, Webber has shot 19.8 times. Which means that he passed the ball only 1.8 times, it will be interesting to see if thats included in the TO stat. I find that stat hard to believe, if he has 21 posessions, has 5 assists, couple of turnovers then he could only shoot the ball 14 times.

 

[uolj]

What i see as very interesting is that out of 21.6 posessions, Webber has shot 19.8 times. Which means that he passed the ball only 1.8 times, it will be interesting to see if thats included in the TO stat. I find that stat hard to believe, if he has 21 posessions, has 5 assists, couple of turnovers then he could only shoot the ball 14 times.

You are misreading the stat. Possession in this instance means a possession on which the player attempted to score and is found by adding field goal attempts and free throw attempts/2 (since most of these guys get 2 free throw attempts when they are fouled while shooting). The 1.8 is the number of possessions per game in which Webber tries to shoot and is fouled.


By the way, here are those stats with slightly better formatting:

Pos = possession when player attempted to score

[b]Sorted by Pts/Pos[/b]
-----------------
Name		FGA/g	FTA/g/2	Pos/g	Pts/g	Min/g	Pts/Pos	Pos/48Min
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stoudemire	16.3	5.0	21.3	26.4	36.2	1.24	28.2
Gasol		13.2	3.8	17.0	19.4	34.3	1.14	23.8
Nowitzki	18.8	5.0	23.8	26.7	38.5	1.12	29.7
Garnett		18.0	3.8	21.8	23.9	39.6	1.10	26.4
O'Neal		18.7	5.0	23.7	25.2	34.4	1.07	33.0
Duncan		16.6	3.9	20.5	21.8	34.6	1.06	28.4
Randolph	17.2	3.0	20.2	20.1	38.1	1.00	25.4
Webber		19.8	1.8	21.6	20.6	35.6	0.95	29.1

[b]Sorted by Pos/48Min[/b]
-------------------
Name		FGA/g	FTA/g/2	Pos/g	Pts/g	Min/g	Pts/Pos	Pos/48Min
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
O'Neal		18.7	5.0	23.7	25.2	34.4	1.07	33.0
Nowitzki	18.8	5.0	23.8	26.7	38.5	1.12	29.7
Webber		19.8	1.8	21.6	20.6	35.6	0.95	29.1
Duncan		16.6	3.9	20.5	21.8	34.6	1.06	28.4
Stoudemire	16.3	5.0	21.3	26.4	36.2	1.24	28.2
Garnett		18.0	3.8	21.8	23.9	39.6	1.10	26.4
Randolph	17.2	3.0	20.2	20.1	38.1	1.00	25.4
Gasol		13.2	3.8	17.0	19.4	34.3	1.14	23.8

 

[KP]

Webber just needs to shoot a little(4 or 5 shots) less, especially when he's missing a lot. But saying he's only the 10th best PF in the league?? I'm waiting to see the list of the other 9...

 

[RaY Z]

I am concerned about Webbers productivity on the floor. It seems he is taking more shots than making points.. All upper echelon power forwards take about 5-10 fewer shots than points scored. This scares me because Webber takes the most shots on the floor EVERY night. I know the assists he gets makes up for some of the offense he lacks but rebounding, lack of creating his own shot, and the amount of shots he takes really concerns me. It is almost like I would rather see Songalia start because my eyes hurt when I see Webber struggle out there. On any other team with a halfway decent PF Webber would not start.

dude he just had one bad game no need to be concerned his gonna have his bad days and good days now his old and his knees are aching...

 

[Bballkingsrock]

Why is everybody concerned Chris Webber is not playing for 1 game?

 

[Heuge]

Why is everybody concerned Chris Webber is not playing for 1 game?

Webb and RA take way too much crap around here. One bad game, and they need to go. 5 great games and it is shrugged off as that is what they are supposed to do. Sucks, if you ask me.

 

[bibbyweb]

I think it's a concern night in and night out. He averages 20 shots per game in 35 minutes a game. Kobe, whom everyone on this forum refers to as selfish and as a "I have to take every shot" type player averages about 1.5 shots more than Webb per game in 8 more minutes a game.

Webber forces things too much, and it hasn't just been a problem this season.

What do u mean its a problem night in and night out? If he is making the shots, then why would you have a problem with him taking shots? Its a problem when he is not making them, and I agreed to that. I don't understand your point of arguement.

 

[bibbyweb]

Webb and RA take way too much crap around here. One bad game, and they need to go. 5 great games and it is shrugged off as that is what they are supposed to do. Sucks, if you ask me.

Finally someone is talking sense!

 

[Entity]

I love this. Every time ppl start to bad mouth Webber a little bit he comes out with triple doubles. I will be at the Atlanta game tomorrow night and i would love to see that. Webber is not a prototypical PF. Only 1 PF in the league averages near as many assist as Webber and has the offense run through him. Oh yeah and that guy won the MVP last year. I'd take Webber shooting a jumper from the elbow over any other PF in the league. Face it he is not the athletic PF he used to be. To say he wouldn't start on another team is ludacris.

 

[Heuge]

I'd take Webber shooting a jumper from the elbow over any other PF in the league.

Dirk

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Eh, Dirk's just an overgrown Small Forward

 

[Heuge]

Eh, Dirk's just an overgrown Small Forward

I wish our overgrown SF grab 10 boards a game, but that is another discussion. Dirk is a four.

 

[love_them_kings]

--Man! One bad game, (on a back to back no less) and this thread pops up again this fast? Webb is 13th in the league in effeciency rating per game, 12th per 48 min. What else do you want? His shooting % is up from last year and still climbing, until last night. I would also point out he has a higher fg% than Peja but Celt already did. When he's shooting bad he tends to press, but for the most part(last night being an exception) he's even been doing that less. If he can get up to around 47-48% and keeps hitting clutch shots I'll be happy.

Yup! Never fails where Webber is concerned. Couldn't believe it when I saw this thread because as a joke last night I was thinking I should go on and post a thread saying "Trade Webber". Despite the fact that he's carried the team during several games this season, it only takes one bad game before he starts getting attacked. Granted, he threw up too many shots last night. But, you see that a lot when players just feel like they are so close to getting it right. AND, Adelman as a coach tends to encourage his players to work through it. So, it is what it is, but bad game or not, I think Webb's a great player and I'm very happy with his overall play this season.

 

[vj9999]

The only thing that concerns me about Webb is his moustache. He reminds me too much of John Waters

 

[Evenstar]

the only thing that concerns me about webber is his health. i just want him to stay healthy.

 

[KP]

the only thing that concerns me about webber is his health. i just want him to stay healthy.

--Well said.

 

[GoGoGadget]

I propose that when webb has possession, he should float in fast circles above the court until a passing lane opens to teammates while they stand motionless in semi-athletic looking poses - and hope that they do something other than pass it straight back.

Why pass? If Chris had the ability to float above the court, I guarantee you his FG% would skyrocket.

 

[VF21]

AND no more annoying traveling calls!