Well obviously if they never improve we are screwed. But from looking at the history of the league, guys like Tyreke tend to fill in the holes in their games at some point. Not always, but more often than not they do. With the right role players (Beno), Tyreke does not need to run the point. And a jump shot is one of the only things you can add to your game. Reke has the physical size, strength, and speed to be a dominant guard on both offense and defense. It is possible that he will never get any better than he is right now but from my perspective their is no reason to think that is going to be the case. If he hasn't improved by the end of next season, then we start getting worried. If Thornton can get back to the level he was at the end of last year, he never really needs to get much better than that. 20 ppg, a few boards and a few assists. Our future as a team rests more so on Reke and Cousins.
Comparing the Kings big 3 to the big 3s of good teams
- Thread starter RookieOfTheDay
- Start date
Well obviously if they never improve we are screwed. But from looking at the history of the league, guys like Tyreke tend to fill in the holes in their games at some point. Not always, but more often than not they do. With the right role players (Beno), Tyreke does not need to run the point. And a jump shot is one of the only things you can add to your game. Reke has the physical size, strength, and speed to be a dominant guard on both offense and defense. It is possible that he will never get any better than he is right now but from my perspective their is no reason to think that is going to be the case. If he hasn't improved by the end of next season, then we start getting worried. If Thornton can get back to the level he was at the end of last year, he never really needs to get much better than that. 20 ppg, a few boards and a few assists. Our future as a team rests more so on Reke and Cousins.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
End of next season? That's four years. Way too long to waste on player that isn't improving in my opinion. Especially when he's supposed to be one of your franchise guys. Usually the third season is the make or break season for guys in Tyreke's position. If you aren't on the right path by then, odds are you never will be. I say if he hasn't improved by the end of this year it's time to write him off as a bust and trade him for what you can get. I understand that he hasn't been coached properly, but that doesn't account for the way he disappears in games. He has one or two great games then falls off the face of the earth for three or four games. That type of of inconsistency from a third year player is daunting.
Last edited:
Larry David
Starter
I think Evans can be a very good player in this league. To me, the best way to do that is to get a good traditional point guard that can shoot and move Evans to shooting guard.
That's not going to happen until Petrie goes, because he's tied to Thornton and Jimmer.
That's not going to happen until Petrie goes, because he's tied to Thornton and Jimmer.
The thing is though that his rookie year he was much more consistent. So he has been that guy before. I don't know if it is because of the other players on the team, coaching, some undisclosed injury, or the league just adjusting to his game but it's not like he has never been consistent. It is very interesting that literally across the board our draft picks over the last 4 years have only gotten worse the longer they played. JT, Donte, and Reke. All of them had decent 1st years or 2nd years and then largely regressed last season and to start this season. He will probably end up being the 2nd or 3rd best player in his draft class. To get someone equal in trade you either need a couple of 1st round draft picks or another young star. And who would you be willing to trade Reke for in the last 3 classes? I mean I could see Wall, Curry, Jennings, Irving, Rubio, Blake obviously but he is untradeable. I would argue that Reke is not definitely worse overall(offense and defense) than any of those guys. You have to replace Reke with someone who has a higher upside or you will be in perpetual rebuild.
Last edited:
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Based on how Tyreke has played this year and last year, I’d trade him for any of these guys from the last three drafts...
Blake Griffin
James Harden
Ricky Rubio
Stephen Curry
Brandon Jennings
John Wall
It’s to early to say but I wouldn’t be surprised if I’d ad these players to that list soon as well...
Derrick Williams
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
You didn't have to, you just completely ignored it. There are ebbs and flows to a youth movement, it's not always up. Sometimes the steps back can be harsh and considering the coaching situation to begin the year it was almost unavoidable. I want to see this team with some practice time, some home games, and a system. Then I'll make solidify my opinion. Hopefully this string of embarrassing losses inspires not necessarily to just work harder on the court, but in attempting to play as a team and in practice. That is the only way they will fix this. I personally believe this team has plenty of talent and if they didn't you wouldn't see the things you do when allowed from some of the members of this team. There might be a time where not all that talent is a perfect match but talent is talent and there is a big difference between absolute failure from an individual standpoint in contrast to a team one.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
I didn't ignore it. I just didn't mention it because A, everyone already knows it's the case and B, it had absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. I don't agree that this team has plenty of talent, either. Forget about mix, fit, etc. just based on paper talent alone they're in the bottom 1/3 on the NBA.
See that is where I get lost. I don't buy the the grass is always greener. With the exception of Griffin, none of them have proven to be any better than Reke. Most of them play for losing teams, and on those teams they are the 2nd or 3rd best guy.
Harden = 3rd best guy on a playoff team.
Rubio = 3rd best guy on a below average team.
Curry = 2nd best guy on a below average team.
Jennings = 2nd best guy on a below average team.
Wall = Best guy on a team worse than us.
In my opinion all of those guys are at best a lateral move and their lack of success in the league backs me up. So why trade for one of those guys when we have our own guy that has just as much chance at improving as any of them? Except Reke is bigger and stronger than all of them and can therefore dominate in ways that none of them ever will be able too.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
True but they're no worse, either. At this point I'd trade for someone like Curry just because he's more consistent and can actually shoot, or someone like Rubio because he actually knows how to run a team.
IfAt1st
Starter
I'll tell ya this:
There's no way the Kings are going to get ANY better if they can't sign free agents that improve the team.
They can not trade and draft this team into a winner. They simply don't have enough talent to get something for nothing, especially when our "talent" doesn't have attractive contracts.
A perfect example of this is the Beno for Salmons trade.
It would have been one thing if they had signed Salmons as a strict addition to the team - then if he ends up sucking, it's just a monetary loss.
But them getting rid of a vital piece of the team, for a obviously-bad-fit was not the move of a team trying to get significantly better - that's a lateral move.
If they can't find a way to sign impact free agents, this team will not be competitive for a long time.
There's no way the Kings are going to get ANY better if they can't sign free agents that improve the team.
They can not trade and draft this team into a winner. They simply don't have enough talent to get something for nothing, especially when our "talent" doesn't have attractive contracts.
A perfect example of this is the Beno for Salmons trade.
It would have been one thing if they had signed Salmons as a strict addition to the team - then if he ends up sucking, it's just a monetary loss.
But them getting rid of a vital piece of the team, for a obviously-bad-fit was not the move of a team trying to get significantly better - that's a lateral move.
If they can't find a way to sign impact free agents, this team will not be competitive for a long time.
The thing is though that Reke has in the past been better than those guys are currently. He won ROTY for a reason. If you trade for a guy like Curry you have consistency now. But what if Reke develops a decent jumper and starts shooting 35 - 40 from 3. And then he learns to consistently finish with his left. Then we get him some teammates that can shoot 35% from 3. All of a sudden you have a 25 ppg 7 apg 5 rbg beast. Oh, and he can play lock down defense too. Meanwhile Curry is putting up 20 a game, plays no defense, and we get bounced out of the first round of the playoffs each year and we sit in wonder why we gave up on him so early. Kind of like we do now with Gerald Wallace.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
A lateral move would be one that doesn't make any significant difference one way or other. That move clearly made the team worse, making it a regressive move.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Trust me, I hear ya. I'd share those concerns as well. I'm just looking at it from this perspective. How long of Tyreke playing poorly does it take before we chalk up his rookie year as some sort of unfortunate fluke? I gotta think we're getting close to that point if he doesn't get it together soon.
Last edited:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I have no idea how Kings fans can continue to hold onto the FA fantasy. Maybe just watching the big markets having FA fun and think gee that looks fun! Let's do that too!
If you are Sacramento FA is not your friend. Sacramento would in fact be better off if they flat out got rid of the institution together. Its a huge structural problem for small market teams. the single best FA the Kings have ever signed was Vlade Divac, who was a platoon player in Charlotte at the time. What free agency represents for the Kings is not the potential to sign major players, but rather the potential to lose our hardearned players gathered from other sources. Or to have to pay them ridiculous sums to stay.
Now to a certain degree we got ourselves into this mess, or at least made it worse this summer, by trades and draft decisions. Yes we took another free agent hit when we lost Daly, but we also traded for Hickson (which is still a fine trade on talent but was never much of a fit and now his value is plummeting) and made the big Beno for Salmons so we could draft Jimmer mistake. With Sacramento's limited appeal, even if the Maloofs had the money to flash anymore, realistically we are probably going to have to clmb back out of this mess by being smarter about trades and drafts. Now actually we are kind of "stuck" drafting is this upcoming draft because we have made our pick conditional -- we owe it unless we end up in the lottery, and I don't think yo can trade the conditional remainder of the pick that we currently possess there. Its a good draft to be forced to draft in, but at this point we have to turn away from the draft. Jimmer has found his stroke and looks like there may be something he can do at this level, but trading Beno so we could draft him still set us back. Future kids will be no different. We have our kids. We now need to start moving the second tier ones to bring in quality veteran support. Can we sign a little of that in FA? Maybe. Hopefully. Just a veteran roleplayer or 2 would do. But I doubt we can even convince AK47 to come, let alone anybody bigger. So a lot of our work is going to be about finding a way to clear all the too young/too old/incompetent debris off the team and stripping us down to a 3-4 top kids, and 3-4 strong roleplayers core. And trades are going to have to be a big part of that if its going to happen. Smart trades. Trades for complimentary pieces.
Last edited:
Well with the way we are playing we should get another solid draft pick this year in what sounds like a pretty deep draft so we may be able to draft a back up plan. I say we give Reke one more normal season before we stick a fork in him. If he is still playing at this level by the end of next season, we have to come up with a plan B and get a new number 1/2 option. The reality is that he was injured most of last year and this is just not a normal year due to the lockout plus early coaching change. Even in the worst case I think Reke's floor is about Andre Iguodala. And with someone like that as your 3rd guy, you will win some games.
Good post. Helpful analysis and thoughts about reality. Just heard some good callers on Napear's show. The nature of everyones questions and thinking, including yours, tells me we have reached the time when something has to and will happen concerning our personnel. Let's hope for devine guidance and 'smart trades".
Not saying I would rather have Curry over Tyreke, but there is an abundance of what-ifs in your statement. What if Curry learns to be a decent defendrr? Also, I would say that during the second half of Tyreke's rookie campaign, Curry outperformed Tyreke.
It's not fair to say Tyreke will improve while Curry stagnates.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Nellieball.
Beware small soft shooters. They make nice third or fourth weapons tops. you always take the big phsyical freak player and hope he learns how to shoot, whihc it is possible to do, over the small soft player and hope he learns how to be a tough physical freak.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Well, and some of the concerns I'm seeing with Tyreke is a contrast is style and ability that may not jive with the way this team should turn. At some point you have to pick a direction and hope to get what you need and possibly as close to a lateral trade in talent as possible. Westphal kind of had the right idea in trying to almost turn Reke into a version of Doug Christie. That would be a way underutilization of potential but it would probably make this team better in all honesty.
I know there are ways for Evans to play off of Cousins if Evans was taught and bought in. If it didn't work I'm on the horn with pocket book open to the Zen master or the next best teacher of the Triangle offense. Even if they come from Laker land I don't care, I say beat 'em at their own game!
While it is possible that Curry will improve skill wise, he will never be 6'6" 220 pounds with freakishly long arms. Physically, Reke has more tools than Curry. What Reke needs to improve on are things that players have traditionally improved on. Much like Beno will never be a lock down defender, Curry just doesn't have the physical tools to be able to do that. The upside is just not there for Curry.
People used to say the same thing about soft European power forwards who didn't play with their backs to the rim.
Using the triangle with the way our team is constructed crossed my mind. Problem is that no one except Phil Jackson will teach it and it takes years to learn.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And I'll add that you stick with it until that player is probably unlikely to become that, it's close to contract time, he doesn't really fit with your teams needs, and you have somebody else whos is worth it who needs the right running mates. Could be the eventual situation here if there is no upswing of any sort in the next few weeks and it's clear that you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Then you consider things.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
And they have all sucked or lost except one freak. Who actually had always came up short until last year's run BTW, but that's another story.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
This isn't directed at you, just at the notion in general. I'm freaking sick and tired oh hearing about upside, potential, etc. with this team. We've been living off those dreams for long enough. I don't care how good you can be in theory, I care how good you are in reality.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Well, I think the main problem many are having, and especially myself, is that there appears to be very little to build on in regards to a system and very few outward signs of recognition of how to build it. It may take years, but I'd bet with Cousins it wouldn't at all. He's built for a system like that and he proved it last year. That's when you can scour the league and find guys that understand motion and maybe have a head start in a system like that. It may take years to perfect, but success is rarely something that comes all at once for a team like this. It's all about momentum and looking back at the end of the year and saying you're better than you were at the start and you can get even more polished with hard work. Polish is what this team lacks most of all beside no real system from which to build on.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
But just because you're tired of it, doesn't mean it's not there. And we haven't been living off the dreams of Reke/Cousins/Thornton for that long at all. The losing is tiring for everyone, and while the play of those 3 has contributed without a doubt, what is contributing far more to our losing is the surrounding players who are shooting at an NBA low, and our FO collecting role players which don't fit, and/or are over the hill.
But it;s tough to say you're sick and tired of hearing about potential, if you're talking about Reke/Cousins, given they should still be in college. It's the complete lack of veterans and pieces which fit around them which is the larger issue in my mind, along with 2-3 years of wasted coaching/development.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Then you are flat out being foolish.
All those words are basically the ONLY words that matter when you are talking about youth. And the reason they have continued to apply to the Kings is because we have oddly decided to get younger and younger every single year. The decision to continue that route this year was a mistake BTW. But it doesn't change the words that go with it. Vet teams are judged by what they are because tisa all they will ever be. Young teams are judged by waht tehy can be, because growth is stil ahead of them. Its nonsensical to talk about them in any other way.
Last edited:
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
You’re flat out delusional. This is hardly the first evidence of that, though.
We’re not talking about Rookies here. We’re talking about a third year player. The “Wait and see if he meets his potential.” approach is appropriate for Jimmer, and even Cousins. It’s nearing its expiration date with Tyreke, though.
At some point you have to accept (i.e. not be delusional) that the potential just didn’t pan out, cut your losses, and move on.
Otherwise you end up wasting half a decade on a player that never took you anywhere.
Sure there’s always the chance that he blossoms somewhere else, that’s why it’s a gamble. I never claimed that this was foolproof.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You're talking about a 3rd year player who is younger than your rookies!! And a player who at various times this very month has been completely dominant. 4 games ago he just tore up the San Antonio Spurs to the tune of 23pts 11rebs and 7ast and dropped the game winning jumper on them to boot. This is hardly some flatliner.
Its tough cookies you're impateient and tired of waiting. At some point people have to suck it up and learn to hold their water. With a young team there is no other choice.
