Clippers Reportedly Pursue Abdur-Rahim

[Bricklayer]

My thoughts exactly, Bricklayer. That's the advantage of getting Shareef Abdur-Rahim this offseason. In the scenarios where we get him we're not giving up one of our core guys to get a 20/10 power forward, we don't have to change our offense and we get markedly better. Would I trade Peja or Miller or Bibby for Rahim? Not in a million years. But adding him without giving up one of those three? Sign me up.

Adding Shareef isn't going to get us where we theoretically want to go either. There is a gulf between Shareef's "20-10" (which he did all of one year) and Brand's rugged 20-10-2+blks. One is a soft player who puts up pretty numbers but doesn't do the dirty work. The other is a serious banger inside. One is also middle-aged in basketball terms and has to be able to win in the next 3-4 years, while the other is still only 26 and just entering his prime years -- gives you a few more years to play with to try to get it right.

If you add Shareef the only way to even realistically squint at contention is if you then turn around and trade one of the core guys away. Reef's not adding any toughness or defense. So if you bring him in, you have to sacrifice somebody else to get those all-critical traits. Signing Reef and then trading one of the core guys to get Brand would be interesting.

 

[nbrans]

Adding Shareef isn't going to get us where we theoretically want to go either. There is a gulf between Shareef's "20-10" (which he did all of one year) and Brand's rugged 20-10-2+blks. One is a soft player who puts up pretty numbers but doesn't do the dirty work. The other is a serious banger inside. One is also middle-aged in basketball terms and has to be able to win in the next 3-4 years, while the other is still only 26 and just entering his prime years -- gives you a few more years to play with to try to get it right.

If you add Shareef the only way to even realistically squint at contention is if you then turn around and trade one of the core guys away. Reef's not adding any toughness or defense. So if you bring him in, you have to sacrifice somebody else to get those all-critical traits. Signing Reef and then trading one of the core guys to get Brand would be interesting.

Bricklayer, only you could take issue with a post that says signing Shareef without giving up any of our core players would make the team better. I admire your ability to be contrarian.

I don't think the "gulf" between Shareef and Brand is as wide as you say. It's not like either one has made their teams a whole lot better. They're both solid second-tier borderline all-star power forwards But hey, I at least agree that Brand is a better defender. But Shareef is a much more versatile player, and he's not far behind Brand on the glass.

But if you're talking about trading Peja for Brand and trying to play Shareef at the 3, well then I think you've made the team worse than when you started. Do you really believe that a frontline of Shareef-Brand-Miller is markedly better than a frontline of Peja-Shareef-Miller? And don't give me the defense argument, whatever defense you're gaining by having Brand at the 4 you're then losing by having Shareef play out of position at the 3. And Peja's not a bad defender. Meanwhile, the team is worse on offense.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Peja/Brand/Miller is the right recipe for what it is worth. Shooter/Banger/Passer. Yes! Geez, I'd say with Wells and Bibby we could then even contend for something beyond the 5 or six spot (if everyone plays nice w/each other).

sorry, but all my solutions include losing Thomas/Williamson/Skinner.

 

[nbrans]

Peja/Brand/Miller is the right recipe for what it is worth. Shooter/Banger/Passer. Yes! Geez, I'd say with Wells and Bibby we could then even contend for something beyond the 5 or six spot (if everyone plays nice w/each other).

sorry, but all my solutions include losing Thomas/Williamson/Skinner.

I agree, LA King Fan, that would be ideal. Sadly I don't see how we could get Brand without losing Peja or Brad.

 

[John Galt]

If the Kings could get Brand for scrubs they would certainly be back in "contenderville". But come on.... it's just not realistic.

 

[Bricklayer]

Bricklayer, only you could take issue with a post that says signing Shareef without giving up any of our core players would make the team better. I admire your ability to be contrarian.

I don't think the "gulf" between Shareef and Brand is as wide as you say. It's not like either one has made their teams a whole lot better. They're both solid second-tier borderline all-star power forwards But hey, I at least agree that Brand is a better defender. But Shareef is a much more versatile player, and he's not far behind Brand on the glass.

But if you're talking about trading Peja for Brand and trying to play Shareef at the 3, well then I think you've made the team worse than when you started. Do you really believe that a frontline of Shareef-Brand-Miller is markedly better than a frontline of Peja-Shareef-Miller? And don't give me the defense argument, whatever defense you're gaining by having Brand at the 4 you're then losing by having Shareef play out of position at the 3. And Peja's not a bad defender. Meanwhile, the team is worse on offense.

You remain fasinating in your abiltiy to assign bad defense to Shareef at the 3 (his NATURAL position for most of his career) and then somehow magically ignore the issue once he gets to the 4. That's ridiculous. Brand is a better defender at the 4 than Peja is at the 3, and critically is a MUCH better help defender (in that he actually does). And Shareef is certainly no worse at the 3 than he is at the 4. Meanwhile our rebounding (also a part of defense) gets DRAMATICALLY better. We also gain multiple post weapons at their natural post positions (Reef has better luck posting smaller/weaker SFs than he does PFs). Not sure what your fascination with softness is, but its roughly the worst trait you can have in any sport. Means you're a chump, not a champ. You can practically smell it, and it reeks.

 

[DocHolliday]

Don't know if anyone has already said this, but yesterday at that celebrity golf tournament Jason Kidd told a crowd member when asked about Abdur-Rahim, "He's already locked up with us.".

Grant seemed to think that he would be a credible source, if he said it it's most likely true is what Grant thought.

 

[Kev.in]

I've been hearing Shareef to NJ for a while, from several places. Hopefully he agrees and signs with them ASAP, I'm getting tired of The Daily Abdur-Rahim Report.

 

[whozit]

What was the context of "us?" Was Kidd talking locked up with "us" as in the Kings or was he talking of "us" in terms of his team the Nets?

 

[Bricklayer]

Don't know if anyone has already said this, but yesterday at that celebrity golf tournament Jason Kidd told a crowd member when asked about Abdur-Rahim, "He's already locked up with us.".

Grant seemed to think that he would be a credible source, if he said it it's most likely true is what Grant thought.

I think they may well THINK they have him wrapped up -- at least what reports out here make it sound like. Problem is that they and Portland are dickering over the price tag (Portland wants NO players, but a trade exemption and a pick), and NJ is not willing to give up even a single first rounder to get Reef (kind of shows you how far he has fallen). So they may have the inside track, but if they keep on dickering around I think its still well within the realm of possibility for him to end up elsewhere.

From NJs perspective I think they'd be far better off with Swift anyway. Kidd/Carter/Jefferson/Swift = off to the races once more.

 

[nbrans]

You remain fasinating in your abiltiy to assign bad defense to Shareef at the 3 (his NATURAL position for most of his career) and then somehow magically ignore the issue once he gets to the 4. That's ridiculous. Brand is a better defender at the 4 than Peja is at the 3, and critically is a MUCH better help defender (in that he actually does). And Shareef is certainly no worse at the 3 than he is at the 4. Meanwhile our rebounding (also a part of defense) gets DRAMATICALLY better. We also gain multiple post weapons at their natural post positions (Reef has better luck posting smaller/weaker SFs than he does PFs). Not sure what your fascination with softness is, but its roughly the worst trait you can have in any sport. Means you're a chump, not a champ. You can practically smell it, and it reeks.

Just stay with me here a moment. You're not going to agree with me because, hey, you don't ever agree with me, but let me break down the potential front lines.

Peja - solid defender
Shareef - not a great defender. See! I'm saying he's not a good defender!! At the 4!!! Did I mention he's not a good defender??? Solid rebounder
Miller - solid one on one defender, not the best help defender.

Advantages - you have a solid perimeter defender in Peja, a decent-but-not-great defender at the 4 in Shareef (but no worse than, say, a Chris Webber) and a solid defender in Miller. Meanwhile, this is an incredibly potent inside-outside offensive frontline.

Now your lineup:

Shareef - he is WORSE at the 3 on the defensive end than he is on the 4. The reason he is a power forward is that he's not quick enough to guard 3's. He's not going to be a good perimeter defender. Yes, Bricklayer, he's not a good defender at the 4, but he's worse at the 3 because he can't keep up with quick perimeter players
Brand - Solid defender, if a bit undersized
Miller - solid one on one defender, not the best help defender

So basically, you're giving up soild perimeter defense in Peja for better interior defense in Brand. I'd say it's a wash. I'll even give your lineup a slight defensive edge, because your lineup is a better rebounding team, and hey, I CONCEDE POINTS to people.

But meanwhile, you have three low post players and no inside-outside versatility on offense. You have one passer. You've wrecked the Kings' system.

I don't have a fascination with softness, I have a fascination with versatility. It means you can beat different teams in more than one way. It makes you more difficult to stop. This current Kings team can do all the things you want in a team (good defense, show toughness, rebound) if they put their mind to it. It takes five players, Bricklayer....

 

[Bricklayer]

This current Kings team can do all the things you want in a team (good defense, show toughness, rebound) if they put their mind to it. It takes five players, Bricklayer....

That's the great silly and sloppy myth. It has NEVER been true. It takes one or two to lead, and then it takes a bunch of others with a proclivity for whatever they are being led in. 5 offensive players don't suddenly get together and say "ok guys, today let's play defense!". Its never happened. Certainly isn't going to start with out guys, who are not only offensive minded, but riddled with soft traits and athletic deficiencies.


And no, Shareef is NOT worse at SF than he at PF on defense. He's outquicked, but never overpwowered and bothers people with his size and strength. Soft, but against softies (most SFs) not as big a deal. Now inside he is a complete revolving door -- you know those. Waht we have right now. The next time he comes over to help and/or lays somebody on his *** will be the first time. Kenny is likely a tougher defender in there -- at least he tries.

And Brand may not be better than Peja as a man defender, but there is absolutley no comparison whatsoever as a help defender, which is, dramatic pause....by FAR the most important thing you can get out of an interior defender. A good shotblocker/help defender in there makes EVERYBODY better on defense. Allows them to play closer to their man, turns opponents into jumpshooters rahter than drivers, and makes it easier to contest those jumpshots. There is a reason EVERY champsionship team since...well, just about ever, has had a major defensive force on the inside.

P.S. BTW, not sure who our third post player is susposed to be. Wells? Not here yet. In any case, Peja is the most one-dimsensional scoring star int he game. More so Brand, who is mostly an inside guy. Reef beats you inside and out. In fact a Bibby/Miller tandem with Reef/Brand wouold be about as balanced a team as you could get between shooting and sincde work. Throw in either a driver at OG (Martin) or a shooter (Cisco) and you would have just about every offensive trait presnet and accounted for, but not OVERLY accounted for.

 

[nbrans]

That's the great silly and sloppy myth. It has NEVER been true. It takes one or two to lead, and then it takes a bunch of others with a proclivity for whatever they are being led in. 5 offensive players don't suddenly get together and say "ok guys, today let's play defense!". Its never happened. Certainly isn't going to start with out guys, who are not only offensive minded, but riddled with soft traits and athletic deficiencies.


And no, Shareef is NOT worse at SF than he at PF on defense. He's outquicked, but never overpwowered and bothers people with his size and strength. Soft, but against softies (most SFs) not as big a deal. Now inside he is a complete revolving door -- you know those. Waht we have right now. The next time he comes over to help and/or lays somebody on his *** will be the first time. Kenny is likely a tougher defender in there -- at least he tries.

And Brand may not be better than Peja as a man defender, but there is absolutley no comparison whatsoever as a help defender, which is, dramatic pause....by FAR the most important thing you can get out of an interior defender. A good shotblocker/help defender in there makes EVERYBODY better on defense. Allows them to play closer to their man, turns opponents into jumpshooters rahter than drivers, and makes it easier to contest those jumpshots. There is a reason EVERY champsionship team since...well, just about ever, has had a major defensive force on the inside.

P.S. BTW, not sure who our third post player is susposed to be. Wells? Not here yet. In any case, Peja is the most one-dimsensional scoring star int he game. More so Brand, who is mostly an inside guy. Reef beats you inside and out. In fact a Bibby/Miller tandem with Reef/Brand wouold be about as balanced a team as you could get between shooting and sincde work. Throw in either a driver at OG (Martin) or a shooter (Cisco) and you would have just about every offensive trait presnet and accounted for, but not OVERLY accounted for.

Never been true that a team can change into a better defensive team with the right mindset? It was true when the Kings turned themselves into a good defensive team with Bibby, Christie, Peja, Webber and Divac a few years back. I don't care who was coming off the bench, those were the guys playing the minutes and they all decided to play some D.

I agree with some of your points. A good interior defender can make everyone better. But don't underestimate perimeter defense. If guards and small forwards constantly blow by our defenders and the bigs have to help all the time it opens up easy offensive opportunities for the other team. The two go hand in hand.

But seriously Bricklayer, it's pointless arguing with you when you can't even concede a single, measly point that you didn't think of yourself. You cannot... CANNOT tell me that having a Shareef/Brand/Miller frontline would be more offensively versatile than a Peja/Shareef/Miller frontline. If you can't even concede that I don't even know why I bother having discussions with you.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Miller is a horrible help defender. So is Peja. So is Bibby. Vlade was a huge body that was help in itself. Webber was another big body who coud still move then.

There will be no defense until some big defensive bodies arrive. Miller and Peja are horrible horrible help defenders. As is Bibby. Personally, I think Garcia can become Christie, but Peja and Miller without someone very strong on defense will continue to suck.

I do think that Shareef/Brand/Miller would not pose a threat beyond fifteen feet offensively. Miller gets wide open looks now because of attention to Peja and with him gone it wouldn't be so easy. Him going to the basket could cause severe neck injury from being stuffed by longer, more athletic biggies. Wish we had one. Why didn't Keon Clark take steroids, I wonder.

 

[Bricklayer]

Okay, now I am wary of these stats, as I am of most +/- stuff in basketball. Nonetheless, like almost any stat, you get a large enough sample size and it should be possible to learn SOMETHING from it. Anyway, here are the defensive +/-s from last year for a number of the players in question (and the +/- here is figured out at per 100 possessions so that it balances out teams/pace etc., but obviously is not exactly the difference per game). Courtesy of 82games.com:

Defensive +/-
Brand +3.6pts
Nene +3.6pts (perhaps distorted by being injured for a large chunk fo the season)
K.Brown -1.5pts
Webber -1.7pts
Peja -2.8pts
Shareef: -3.4pts
Thomas -4.1pts
Mobley -5.3pts
Walker -5.3pts

major players + those guys played all year, so should be reasonably accurate. And if I want to get better defensively, the guy I want is Brand, paired with just whoever.

**** Nonetheless I am raising the red flag on my own stats here, because as always there are a lot of anomalies that may or may not be explainable: (get into problems with guys who only played half a year or limited minutes or whatnot, also matters who backs you up -- if Ben Wallace is your backup, you look bad, if Antoine Walker is your backup, you look great). For instance:

Miller +4.0 (all his minutes came in the better defensie half of the year)
Bibby +0.1 (no explanation excpet possibly in his backups' defense -- Bobby very good stats in short time with team (all with Doug around), House very bad stats (his fault? Seems to hustle -- maybe just the guys he was on court with?).
Skinner -3.8 (almsot all of his minutes on year with our post trade no defense twerps)

etc. etc. Anyway, perhaps the anomalies can all be explained, perhaps not. But always make me nervous about heeding to these stats too religiously.

P.S. there IS no Peja/Brand/Miller frontline. Not realistically going to happen. there could be a Peja/Brand pairing, but then there is no center. So its likely a choice between which of Brand or Peja would be better if paired with Reef and Miller (in our fantasy scenarios).

 

[Alacron]

P.S. there IS no Peja/Brand/Miller frontline. Not realistically going to happen. there could be a Peja/Brand pairing, but then there is no center. So its likely a choice between which of Brand or Peja would be better if paired with Reef and Miller (in our fantasy scenarios).

OK, so what if we kept Thomas as our starting SF?

PG- Bibby (House, Price)
SG- Martin, Garcia, (Evans, Wells)
SF- Thomas, Barnes
PF- Brand, (FA)
C- Miller, Ostertag

No more midget ball. You have to assume we'd be one of the better rebounding teams in the league. Of course 3-point shooting suffers, so with that roster Adelman would probably start Garcia at SF...
~~

 

[Bricklayer]

OK, so what if we kept Thomas as our starting SF?

PG- Bibby (House, Price)
SG- Martin, Garcia, (Evans, Wells)
SF- Thomas, Barnes
PF- Brand, (FA)
C- Miller, Ostertag

No more midget ball. You have to assume we'd be one of the better rebounding teams in the league. Of course 3-point shooting suffers, so with that roster Adelman would probably start Garcia at SF...
~~

Or might just start him at OG.

In any case, might STILL be a better shooting lineup than any of the Conference Finals team this year except Phoenix.

Thomas at SF is always interesting, but also just a big ?? Can he? Could he? Would he? Would we?

 

[KingKong]

I like this better.

PG- Bibby (House, Price)
SG- Wells, Evans, Martin Garcia
SF- Thomas, Barnes
PF- Brand, (FA)
C- Miller, Ostertag

 

[Bricklayer]

I like this better.

PG- Bibby (House, Price)
SG- Wells, Evans, Martin Garcia
SF- Thomas, Barnes
PF- Brand, (FA)
C- Miller, Ostertag

You know, maybe no real championship there, but we'd definitely be tougher. A couple of tweaks:

-- Rather than Evans, sign Jaric
-- Wells for Corliss/Bobby
-- Brand for Peja/Tag (ending contracts! = Sterling pherenomes)
-- keep Skinner

PG -- Bibby, Jaric
OG -- Wells, Martin, Garcia
SF -- Thomas, Barnes
PF -- Brand, Skinner
C -- Miller + ??

Just a modified version of your lineup. Pretty good size and toughness and maybe enough shooting. STILL no title in sight there I think -- just not enough starpower and mediocre size/athleticism across the frontline. But tough, should win the battle of the boards and be much improved defensively. No more talented than this year's lineup, but tougher.

(With that said other than the ending contract idea I really have no idea why the Clips would trade Brand for Peja given the Mobley deal. But anyway, just doodling).