kb02
All-Star
Yea, you're right. I should've said soft and/or horrible at basketball.
CLE/SAC Trade
- Thread starter Camino
- Start date
Yea, you're right. I should've said soft and/or horrible at basketball.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Dave Joerger had some of the best defensive squads in the league over in Memphis. Obviously the players themselves had a lot to do with that but aren't there reports out there that our players didn't like playing for him? He's got the resume to back up what he says. That's not a good sign if our players tuned him out then went on to new heights of defensive ineptitude in his absence. Besides, these guys aren't adolescents. Most of them played for highly respected college coaches. The scheme we're playing this year is definitely a problem but there's nothing more fundamental than contesting the ball in the paint and we're not even doing that reliably. If we were getting killed by 3pt shooting because everyone is sucked into the middle of the floor I'd agree that the scheme is more to blame than the players but we're also giving up more points in the paint than anyone.
I realize some of you really want Bagley to be successful but this is what I see... he shrinks from contact on almost every play. This is his third season in the league. There's a point at which you just are who you are. He started off the season showing me that he could be active in rotations which was encouraging but being in the right place really does you no good if you're just going to stand there and let the other player go around you once you get there. Maybe Whiteside got into him and he stepped it up for a week or two but I don't think he wants to be a defensive player. I think he wants to get his points and he's content to let everyone else do the dirty work. He probably will average 20 and 10 once he fills out and learns the league better since he's very talented as a scorer but I don't think that's what this team needs in a big man. Not when we we have two guards who can break down defenders and get into the paint and/or create shots almost at will.
I realize some of you really want Bagley to be successful but this is what I see... he shrinks from contact on almost every play. This is his third season in the league. There's a point at which you just are who you are. He started off the season showing me that he could be active in rotations which was encouraging but being in the right place really does you no good if you're just going to stand there and let the other player go around you once you get there. Maybe Whiteside got into him and he stepped it up for a week or two but I don't think he wants to be a defensive player. I think he wants to get his points and he's content to let everyone else do the dirty work. He probably will average 20 and 10 once he fills out and learns the league better since he's very talented as a scorer but I don't think that's what this team needs in a big man. Not when we we have two guards who can break down defenders and get into the paint and/or create shots almost at will.
While I appreciate your perspective, I’m going defend Bags (again). He is a valuable player for the Kings. The teams lack of defensive identity is not on him alone, and, I think the forum needs to be careful about these ongoing witch hunts.
On Marvin’s defence:
- Defence was listed as a weakness when he entered the NBA, he doesn’t look like a good defender, and statistically, he isn’t. It is unlikely he will ever be a leading defensive player. This does not mean he has not improved on that side of the ball and will not continue to improve. He does make defensive plays (e.g., he leads the team in charges taken - link), he leaves his feet less often when challenging shots, and is getting into foul trouble less. It may also be worth highlighting the defence of other bigs drafted alongside MBIII (link - scroll down a little).
- I also don’t completely buy that it is his defence that the forum dislikes. Harry was awful defensively, but half the posters here were ready to get down on their knees after every social media post he made.
- The team is poor defensively regardless of MBIII’s presence. When Marvin missed two games earlier, the defence did not improve. The team’s defence was poor for most of last year – despite MBIII being out. It was poor under Dave when MBIII only had a bench role as a rookie. The team is not set up to be a good defensive team. Fox, Buddy, Harrison, Cojo, Tyrese, and Belly all have a negative defensive impact worse than MBIII's (link). In contrast, Baze, who we let walk in free agency, may be an All-Defensive team candidate this year according to several statistical metrics (link). If the team had better perimeter defenders, some decisions would be easier for MBIII. Not saying his hands are clean, but if you want a witch hunt you may need to burn most of the village.
- Last year, fans ragged on MBIII because he wasn’t playing. This year, he is playing. Fans whinged he couldn’t hit a three consistently (one fan– who is consistently negative about MBIII – took delight at counting his visible misses in the back corner of short team practice videos). He now hits the corner three consistently. He scores in a variety of ways – in the post, off offensive boards, in the pick and role, from the corner, and on the break. None of these require him to have the ball in his hands for more than a couple of seconds. This season – MBIII’s PER is in the top 90 of all players. His overall impact, according to BBall index, is in the top half of all players, which earns him a ‘starter’ level rating, despite his minutes being in the bottom half of the league (link). He is 21 and his trajectory is up. So let's not spend so much time talking about what Marvin is not we miss out on what he is.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Preach!
Most of what you're talking about here has nothing to do with what I wrote. I'm not talking about how fans feel on social media or the Harry Giles cult following. I'm not laying the entirety of our poor defense at Marvin's feet. I'm not running some kind of crusade to get him kicked off the team because he irks me. All I'm doing is reporting on what I see when I watch the games. I realize we'd be trading him for 10 cents on the dollar right now and I'm not going to argue that losing him is addition by subtraction either because I think he contributes enough positives to the team to be worth keeping in some circumstances. I don't even care that he's trying to build a rap career on the side. I appreciate when athletes challenge the stereotype that they can't be well-rounded interesting people outside of whatever sport they excel at.
So what am I arguing then?
I guess I'm just saying that I'd be surprised if the light bulb goes on for him. Aside from about 3 weeks at the start of this season he's been incredibly consistent in his defensive deficiencies. Willie Cauley-Stein had the same brief tease in the second half of his rookie season where I started to think maybe my analysis on him was wrong but then he never really showed that spark again. I don't want to say he lacks effort because he's clearly shown us effort this season. But even when he does make smart rotations and slide his feet to stay in front of his man he doesn't know how to use his body to alter their shot. He doesn't box out to control rebounds. He gets his body between the basket and the ball, which is good, but he doesn't seem to understand how to use angles and momentum to build leverage so his being there is mostly ineffective. And that's just the stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. A guy with his size and athletic gifts should not be averaging a mere 0.6 blocks per 36 minutes. And that's especially sad this season because weakside shot-blocking is probably the only aspect of defense where he's shown any aptitude in the past.
I know this is hard to hear and maybe it will be another 2-3 years before you accept it but let me try to spell it out as simply as I can. The clearest path forward for this team involves Bagley growing into a player worthy of a top 5 selection but simply wanting that to happen is not going to make it true. And as bad as we are, we're not going to add one top 5 player to our starting lineup (even a Cade Cunningham or Evan Mobley) and then reinvent ourselves as a playoff team next year. I'm sorry for anyone who still thinks that's happening this season but you're dreaming. I suppose we could in that it's not logically impossible but it's unlikely. Here's a more practical assessment of our situation: the young players on this team right now who could be considered important parts of our core are Fox, Haliburton, and Bagley. If we're feeling extra charitable we can add to that list Woodard and maybe Metu. Pick 2 of them. That's your core. The rest maybe can be rotation players getting 20ish minutes a game here and there but we do not have anything more than 15% of a winning team with the kind of performances we've been turning in for the last month.
Hi. In response to your point re that I am not replying to what you have said. I will agree that my post was as much a response to some of the broader critiques of MBIII as it was to your specific post. But I disagree that it did not address what I took as the crux of your message. You have argued that MBIII is not that good and has little promise. The lightbulb will not go off. I have argued otherwise. But rather than addressing these details further I am going to direct my protest elsewhere. In your reply, you write:
I find your tone here quite patronising. I do not require you to spell anything out for me and you should not assume that since my view is different to yours there is some error in my thinking. I also reject how you have framed my support of Marvin as simply ‘wanting’ him to get better. Yes, as a fan of the Kings I have enjoyed his improvement and would like to see continued growth. But nothing I have written would suggest that I believe my wishing to the stars is going to have greater effect than MBIII turning up to work. Further, nowhere did I comment on the way forward for the Kings or the impact a draft choice might have. You should not get upset about people not responding to the exact content of your posts when it is unclear whether you are capable of any better.
I find your tone here quite patronising. I do not require you to spell anything out for me and you should not assume that since my view is different to yours there is some error in my thinking. I also reject how you have framed my support of Marvin as simply ‘wanting’ him to get better. Yes, as a fan of the Kings I have enjoyed his improvement and would like to see continued growth. But nothing I have written would suggest that I believe my wishing to the stars is going to have greater effect than MBIII turning up to work. Further, nowhere did I comment on the way forward for the Kings or the impact a draft choice might have. You should not get upset about people not responding to the exact content of your posts when it is unclear whether you are capable of any better.
Gtronic
Bench
My apologies Turgenev. I can see now that I was in a bad mood yesterday and I probably should have just slept on it before responding to you. I think the tone I was aiming for was "firm but fair" and I missed the mark by several yards and wound up in a sand bunker. So again, I apologize for my tone. I didn't mean to give you the impression that I don't respect your point of view.
I do think you're missing my point though if your takeaway here is that I'm arguing Bagley is not very good. That's my fault I'm sure since I didn't directly address your bullet points though that's mostly because I feel like I've already addressed them elsewhere. I'll give it another shot though, hopefully with considerably less snark this time.
My problems with Bagley as a basketball player start and end with his defense. Two posts up I said that he was going to be a 20 and 10 player. The argument for trading him to Cleveland is that we have the worst defense in the league and they have the worst offense in the league. I do think Bagley could be a valuable player on a team that needs a scorer. I also think he's a liability on a team which is already poor defensively. You're right that the team is bad on defense with or without him. And I do think it's unfair when fans call him terrible or mock him when he makes mistakes. Please don't lump me in with that group. I'm sure he will continue to improve in all aspects of the game but can he improve enough to be anything other than a liability on defense? I'm skeptical.
There's a curious double standard with young players. If a player is older than his draft class he gets dismissed as near his ceiling and unlikely to improve but then when a player continues to struggle in the NBA we keep saying "oh, he's only 21 there's time" then "he's only 23" then "he's still only 25, not even in his prime". A good deal of wishful thinking goes into projecting players on a bad team especially if they are taken high in the draft. The unfortunate thing for Bagley and this whole team in general is that the franchise doesn't take defense seriously. The first time I watched him play I could see that he defends on his heels. A good coach would have seen that and put him into drills until he broke that bad habit and developed some good ones. Then when you put him into games he's getting reps playing the right way. But when you allow him to continue the same bad habits, his progression is capped. It doesn't matter how many minutes he's getting if no actual development is going on. He's going to get better regardless because he's athletically gifted but is he going to unlearn the bad habits without focused coaching? Probably not.
It's buried by now but if you could find what I wrote about Bagley before the draft there was something in there about needing the right coach to get the most out of him. If he plays for Popovich or Thibodeau or Brad Stevens he might have a shot at becoming a complete player. It's to his great misfortune that he got drafted on a team that doesn't have a long-term plan with an owner and front office who still seem to think they're going to win by running faster and throwing up more shots than everyone else. It takes a special kind of personality to step into that type of situation and become a good defender in spite of them. This organization only enables Bagley's score-first proclivities. So when I suggest that getting traded might be in Bagley's best interest as well as the team's -- that's a comment about the state of the team far more than a criticism of Bagley.
Hi. Nice reply. No need to apologise. I get tired of the negative MBIII narrative, so no doubt my post was already carrying excess. I don’t lump you into the group that are simply ‘Bags is bad’, which is why I bothered with a reply at all.
I think this is what we agree on:
- The Kings are a bad defensive team. They have been for a while. It sucks.
- MBIII is not a good defensive player. He does not improve the Kings poor defence; he makes it slightly worse.
- In addition to defensive technique, he could also use a teaspoon of cement every so often
- The Kings are decent offensively and they could ship out some of their offensive talent for some defensive talent.
- MBIII will improve all aspects of his game but believe he will always be a defensive liability. I agree in that I do not think he will ever be a defensive playmaker or have great defensive hustle stats.
- Age is valued a little bit too much and at some point a player is just a player. I agree with this is the sense that people are like ‘maybe we can get a first for HB’ forgetting HB was once a high first himself and that a pick is less of a sure thing as many young players hit a ceiling early. Or – forgetting that MBIII was a stud HS and college prospect – who broke many records as a scoring and rebounding big - and was not the kind of prospect who grows on trees.
- MBIII has improved as a defensive player this year. He has also improved offensively and showed greater durability.
- MBIII is not alone in his negative impact on our defence. We have few defensive playmakers on the squad and most of our key rotation guys have a negative defensive impact. Sometimes the others get more of a pass than MBIII.
- I think that MBIII’s role and abilities on offense suit Hali and Fox. He can now sit in the corner. He can get offensive boards. He can finish. He can score off post moves. He can run the floor. He is getting better in the pick and roll. He doesn’t need to hold the ball for all that long.
- He is 21 years old. His career is 109 games old. Given he is young, he has had limited court time, and that he has improved in several categories so far, he should continue to get better. While I imagine you agree with this, I feel there is more optimism in my view of his trajectory than yours, that’s fine.
- I feel that, when you state: ‘I do think Bagley could be a valuable player on a team that needs a scorer’ you are implying that he is not currently a valuable player. Disagree. Sure - some of the value I am placing on him is based on how I see his development. But some of my feelings about his development are based on evidence and fit.
- When you state ‘… but is he going to unlearn the bad habits without focused coaching?’ You imply that this is not a good situation for him because we cannot develop players well defensively. First – this is a criticism of the Kings and not MBIII – but if this is true – should we then not have any players that are not finished products? Second – I’m not super keen on our head coach (or assistant HC) – but there does seem to be a distinction between these coaches and the development staff – who at least come with a good reputation. So why shouldn’t he get better here? Third – repetition – but I see improvement on defence that suggests he can progress as a King.
- Perhaps I am reading between the lines, but I feel the crux of your post is that you believe that MBIII is the offensively talented player – or one of the players – that we should ship out for more defensive talent. Disagree. I feel we should treat MBIII as if he were a part of our longer-term plans. I think if he feels more supported, he will buy in and apply himself more. His trade value will also go up as we won’t be looking to sell. I think there are other players who are better candidates to ship. There are also other ways of improving defensively that the front office has not yet engaged in. That might be another conversation though.
There are two possibilities with Marvin that intrigue me and why I am not ready to move on: 1) he could become such an offensive threat with above average rebounding that it negates his defensive deficiencies. and 2) a better coach/team defensive scheme could solve his issues. We've seen him put in the work and he seems to take pride in his game and the need to meet expectations and constantly develop and evolve his game a lot more seriously than a guy like WCS did, so I think he can do it.
I really do think we've reached the point where we can definitively state he wasn't the best pick at our spot in the draft but we shouldn't allow that to color his future.
I really do think we've reached the point where we can definitively state he wasn't the best pick at our spot in the draft but we shouldn't allow that to color his future.
There are some nice and respectable back and forth posts by you 2.....more than I would be capable of as the dismissing of what Bagley has accomplished this year should be satisfying of course, some yahoos just keep moving the goal posts.
Fox, Halliburton, top draft pick coming up and then Bagley as the 4th option is pretty damn good. If the draft pick guy also can play good D and we can add a better defensive center, that is something to look forward too.
Fox, Halliburton, top draft pick coming up and then Bagley as the 4th option is pretty damn good. If the draft pick guy also can play good D and we can add a better defensive center, that is something to look forward too.
