Casspi or Greene to start? (split from starting 5 thread)
- Thread starter smokey
- Start date
casspion
G-League
Again, Ginobili delivered in the crunch time of the NBA season more than once. Won at every level. Nice scoring nights that don't even amount to wins in regular season games before the all star break even,are not the same. Love Omri but all the all-star/HoF talk is waaaayyy premature.
kingzallday
Starter
I know it was only 5 games, but Martin was averaging 5 rebs a game...that's what you want from a SG. I think Donte fits better because his defense offsets Martin's D. I think w'ell be ok in the rebound department with Martin out there.
Rookie
Starter
Woooo wait a mintue...you think Ginobili is HoF?
Casspi if he continue will be a more than one time all-star but that's just my prediction. But by no mean am I comparing him to any great player...yet because he still have a lot to go. I say yet because he's still only 21. I'm just saying as of right now, he has proven to be as good as Ginobili in the game of basketball in the last couple of weeks. Also as for crunch time Casspi has shown that he can get us back in the game as well when we need it, and it's not just shooting.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Casspi is a solid defender too and with Tyreke being able to switch off onto martins guy martins D wont be that big of a deal. And yes Donte has shown"potential" to be a great defender but hes still FAR away from being great. He makes highlight defensive plays but he gets burnt alot.
Casspi and Mart on the wings is so deadly its not even funny. both Can shoot 40 % plus from 3 point land and thats going to help tyreke out the most.
Casspi is much more mature then donte right now and he dosent make many mistakes. The starting spot is his.
Donte would be better served off the bench because he can play 2,3,4 and sometimes the 5. So we pretty much have a super-sub that we can bring in if any of those positions are lacking.
Omri can play the 2 and 3 but hes still pretty weak for the 4 position. Omri needs that time at the three, plus he is a much better scorer and rebounder then donte right now.
Donte is still erratic out there. If we hand him the starting spot i dont think its right, because he should have to earn it. he still is so raw that coming off the bench will inspire him to get better and tap into his full potential. Whereas right now Omri is ready to start and already tapping into his star potential.. which is incredible because its only been 34 games.
I said it from the start and i'll stick with it.
Start Omri!
I know my first post lol but... This. Anyways if Hawes continues to struggle and his minutes are being taken away from him. The more playing time for Greene until we get Okafor. I mean Okafor. I mean another big.
casspion
G-League
The HoF refered to previous thread that( i don't know why) brought that up.
Ginobili deserves a consideration when you look at his entire body of work internationally and in the NBA but he probably won't make it because he played with TD and TP.
But that wasn't my point.
Omri put some nice numbers in some regular season games in December and January. Ginobili won for the spurs games that were conference championship and NBA finals clinchers ... with due respect, the game is so different playing on a championship team in late may-june and a young team of some great potential, losing close ones to the big boys in January....
It seems that we moved from "yea he reminds me of a taller Ginobili " to "he is every bit the player Manu is and then some" pretty fast. I am just saying not that fast.
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About the Ginobili and HOF discussion, Manu lead his teams to:
1 Euroleague title (Final 4 MVP)
3 NBA titles
1 Olympic gold medal (Oly' MVP)
He is one of the only two players that won all of this 3 titles, Euroleague, NBA and Olympic gold, the only other player was Bill bradley, and he won it 45 years ago! i think that's enough to get him in the HOF..
1 Euroleague title (Final 4 MVP)
3 NBA titles
1 Olympic gold medal (Oly' MVP)
He is one of the only two players that won all of this 3 titles, Euroleague, NBA and Olympic gold, the only other player was Bill bradley, and he won it 45 years ago! i think that's enough to get him in the HOF..
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
Casspi should probably start for now. How often do you see a super skilled rookie like that who not only shoot the ball but also is tough as nails? Casspi is not only a shooter too--not only does he want to attack the basket, he finishes well, gets to the line and optimizes that by showing great willingness and touch on floaters. I don't think he'll shoot 47.1% from threes consistently, but even if that's merely in the low 40s he's valuable as an all-around offensive roleplayer. Offensively he's just highly intelligent, picks his spots well, reads defenses, and just about the only qualm is his decent rebounding and meh passing ability, and the latter isn't really a flaw because he's unselfish. And that's just the cusp of it...I know we're not blowing anyone away on defense, but Casspi deserves credit--he's shown himself to be a good individual defender, especially against SGs where he plays excellent contain defense, holding down their FG%, scoring rates, and rebounding rates while rarely gambling for steals. He's hard working and just shows good fundamentals. He's still decent against SFs, where he play him most of the time, and usually outplays is matchup by holding down their FG%. At this point, for future reference, the only slight concern might be a lack of super upside--he appears more to be glue-guy (albeit a very good one) than star, as he low turnover rate rooks don't improve as much in subsequent years, plays more spot-up than most other SFs, and doesn't show exquisite ballhandling ability. But Casspi plays on both ends of the court, and mixes a combination of an all-around offense, hustle/grit and basketball IQ, which definitely bodes well for his future as a very, very good roleplayer. He deserves the start.
Greene showed great improvement from his last season and established himself as a rotation player, really becoming more mature, and for that alone deserves credit. But I still think he should see 20-25 minutes off the bench, because he's not quite ready, although his talent is blatantly obvious. But there's just massive potential brimming on many different levels with this kid--and we'll start with his versatility. For starters, Westphal already gives him ample playing time at three different positions for us--SG, SF and PF. Offensively, he's shown some ability to carry a load and score, but he suffers from consistency in his longer range game, so he's not the most reliable offensive player (so far). But again, the potential (we'll be saying this a lot with this kid) is obvious--the guy can finish, hit floaters, and in general shoots well from 15' in, again illustrating his athleticism as well as his touch around the basket. But he needs to improve his long range game--he virtually takes all his three as spot-up shots and doesn't shoot that well, although with his shooting touch that should definitely improve. He's mostly a spot-up guy with us, but doesn't show much of a mid-range game, maybe explaining why he's not a good free throw shooter so far. So offensively there's potential with both his ability to finish and ability to hone his touch from the outside, but so far he's merely just an average offensive player, and he hasn't really helped our team offensively overall. But as Brick said, where the guy shows the most potential is in his defense--he's long, athletic, mobile and uses it to the best is ability, amassing a slew of steals, blocks, and even drawing charges, in his 20 mpg (he ranks #1 among SFs when combining all three, and scaling it per 40 minutes--that's how good he is). Epitomizing this potentially good individual defense is his ability to hold down the FG%'s of SGs (remember his defense of Kobe and LeBron?) as well as PFs. He's still quite green in this area and not an excellent individual defender by any stretch, as he has trouble containing the scoring rates of all three positions he guards, but he's so young you'd think he'll eventually reach that stage. His versatility in defense just makes things all the merrier, and he also plays good team defense as well (in fact one of the better ones on our team). It's hard to ooze any further about his defense--he really can be great here. One thing to note however is he's a very poor rebounder for someone of his size and gifts, and while that may be an issue if he assumes a larger role down the road, it's not that bad if his defense can be very good. Overall his potential also oozes out in other areas--aside from his strong finishing ability/touch around the basket, his versatility, and his potentially suffocating defense, he's turnover prone, and young turnover prone players tend to improve a lot in further seasons as well. This guy is a solid roleplayer but with Casspi on deck we can afford him as a "future" player--let him learn the ropes for now by giving him decent enough playing time, and hopefully enhance his all-around offense and improve on his high-ceiling defense.
Greene showed great improvement from his last season and established himself as a rotation player, really becoming more mature, and for that alone deserves credit. But I still think he should see 20-25 minutes off the bench, because he's not quite ready, although his talent is blatantly obvious. But there's just massive potential brimming on many different levels with this kid--and we'll start with his versatility. For starters, Westphal already gives him ample playing time at three different positions for us--SG, SF and PF. Offensively, he's shown some ability to carry a load and score, but he suffers from consistency in his longer range game, so he's not the most reliable offensive player (so far). But again, the potential (we'll be saying this a lot with this kid) is obvious--the guy can finish, hit floaters, and in general shoots well from 15' in, again illustrating his athleticism as well as his touch around the basket. But he needs to improve his long range game--he virtually takes all his three as spot-up shots and doesn't shoot that well, although with his shooting touch that should definitely improve. He's mostly a spot-up guy with us, but doesn't show much of a mid-range game, maybe explaining why he's not a good free throw shooter so far. So offensively there's potential with both his ability to finish and ability to hone his touch from the outside, but so far he's merely just an average offensive player, and he hasn't really helped our team offensively overall. But as Brick said, where the guy shows the most potential is in his defense--he's long, athletic, mobile and uses it to the best is ability, amassing a slew of steals, blocks, and even drawing charges, in his 20 mpg (he ranks #1 among SFs when combining all three, and scaling it per 40 minutes--that's how good he is). Epitomizing this potentially good individual defense is his ability to hold down the FG%'s of SGs (remember his defense of Kobe and LeBron?) as well as PFs. He's still quite green in this area and not an excellent individual defender by any stretch, as he has trouble containing the scoring rates of all three positions he guards, but he's so young you'd think he'll eventually reach that stage. His versatility in defense just makes things all the merrier, and he also plays good team defense as well (in fact one of the better ones on our team). It's hard to ooze any further about his defense--he really can be great here. One thing to note however is he's a very poor rebounder for someone of his size and gifts, and while that may be an issue if he assumes a larger role down the road, it's not that bad if his defense can be very good. Overall his potential also oozes out in other areas--aside from his strong finishing ability/touch around the basket, his versatility, and his potentially suffocating defense, he's turnover prone, and young turnover prone players tend to improve a lot in further seasons as well. This guy is a solid roleplayer but with Casspi on deck we can afford him as a "future" player--let him learn the ropes for now by giving him decent enough playing time, and hopefully enhance his all-around offense and improve on his high-ceiling defense.
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Well I've already stated my preference is to move KMart and leave both as starters. If Kmart reclaims the 2 spot though I would prefer Greene as the starter but getting smaller minutes than Casspi. Greene is the better defender and can wear down other teams a bit with Tyreke giving us two very good perimeter defenders in the starting lineup (plus the size to better handle a 3/4 switch on a screen). Let Casspi come in and shake things up like Manu does. With Kevin starting you have more than enough offense in the lineup. Go with the better defender and use Omri as an off the bench assassin (high minutes).
Of course this line of thinking leaves no minutes for Noc/Cisco. There's really no way around it, one or two guys have to be moved we have too much wing talent and not enough minutes. It would be pretty harmful to the rebuild for Greene or Casspi to lose a ton of minutes.
Of course this line of thinking leaves no minutes for Noc/Cisco. There's really no way around it, one or two guys have to be moved we have too much wing talent and not enough minutes. It would be pretty harmful to the rebuild for Greene or Casspi to lose a ton of minutes.
Ed2009
Bench
As to this topic i posted in a different thread-but i think its more suitable over here:
I really think that we need to wait and see how KMart will adjust himself to the new situation in the organisation.
He for sure didnt expect the team to develop so well and grow together.
If he still thinks he needs to take every night 30 shots than i´d rather trade him and let the young guys (Reke, Green, Casspi etc.) develop.
On the other side he is a real scorer, which means that many teams will concentrate on guarding him and will automatically open some space for other players to score easily and get open shots.
The question is if he really understood and accepts that basketball is a team sport and not an individual statistic center.
He should also understand that by becoming a better team player his value in the NBA will rise.
I´d rather have him making 20 ppg and pass the ball more often since we have some good guys that can also score-if not CIAO BELLA!
Dont want to see the type of Bball we saw last year again.
Reke
KMart
Casspi
JT
Hawes
I really think that we need to wait and see how KMart will adjust himself to the new situation in the organisation.
He for sure didnt expect the team to develop so well and grow together.
If he still thinks he needs to take every night 30 shots than i´d rather trade him and let the young guys (Reke, Green, Casspi etc.) develop.
On the other side he is a real scorer, which means that many teams will concentrate on guarding him and will automatically open some space for other players to score easily and get open shots.
The question is if he really understood and accepts that basketball is a team sport and not an individual statistic center.
He should also understand that by becoming a better team player his value in the NBA will rise.
I´d rather have him making 20 ppg and pass the ball more often since we have some good guys that can also score-if not CIAO BELLA!
Dont want to see the type of Bball we saw last year again.
Reke
KMart
Casspi
JT
Hawes
Again with the notion that KMart doesn't appreciate the team game concept???? I am totally flummoxed. Kevin is a total team player; always has been. It is NOT his fault by any remote stretch of the imagination that he didn't have much of a team around him...
He isn't a ballhog by choice at all; he has shown time after time a desire to get teammates into games, even passing up shots of his own to try and help get someone else on the board.
This thread, though, isn't about Kevin Martin. It's about Omri Casspi and Donte Greene...
Ed2009
Bench
I see it differently but wish and hope that ur right and that we will see what you´ve just decribed when he´s back!
If this will really happen-lord oh lord..
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I think that a lot of the newer fans simply look at the stats and assume that Martin is a ball dominator, having not watched when Kevin was at his best 2 or three years ago when he was a second or third option.
All of this debate will only be stopped when K-Mart finally comes back to the court.
Rookie
Starter
If you just talking about success...you're correct. Omri still have a lot to do. His career just started...while Ginobili is nearing the end. As far we all could tell Lebron hasn't accomplish anything. Does that mean he's not considered a great player?
As of right now I'm only looking at how well they play and not at accomplishment. How I do that is by stats because there's no other way to compare. Base on the last few weeks of Omri stats vs ginobili career stats, Omri is right there with him. Can he continue..I don't know but one thing is he could be as good as Ginobili but he can also be better. His ceiling is not limited to Ginobili..and that's my point.
casspion
G-League
Thast exactly what I was thinking. That would be an excellent way to do it. I think Omri as the offensive leader of the second unit will be great.
Normally i would agree,you need a good balance between the starting line-up and bench contribution.
However,Casspi's ability to create and stir up the defense isn't that good right now,so i dont think he can spear point any offense.
Further more,i think with such good penetraters like Tyreke and KMart in the line up,Casspi would be left wide open much much more.
If the man burries 47% while many of his shots are contested,he could be a freak if left open.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
When Kevin comes back, Reke may be adversely affected, but that is somewhat up to him. The ball is his to do with as he pleases. But Casspi will certianly be a shots casualty unless you move him out of the way. Casspi's been coring 20pts a game here these last few weeks. That is not going to happen with Tyreke and Kevin both scoring 20ppg as well. The third wing guy is going to have to be able to survive on peanuts. Bringing him off the bench, where he's done quite well this year and can come in at several positions, is one way to try to assure he gets to be a primary weapon during at least some of his time out there.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
There is more to being a team player than just not dribbling much. A team player would play defense, rebound, pass, play through injuries, lead to the degree they can lead, or at least willingly follow, put his body on the line for the team, and THEN we can finally get to the offense. While I am fundamentally not interested in opening up an Omri vs. Kevin front in these scrimmages, Omri is showing what a team player looks like who also happens to shoot. So are Tyreke and Donte for that matter.
Meanwhile Kevin last year was NOT a team oriented player. He did absolutely nothing that did not result in numbers for himself. Numbers of only one kind. Which is cool because it gets you $$ and attention. But which is also loser basketball. And Kevin has indeed lost at a pace that would make Shareef blush.
Now my hope, and despite appearances I do have a vague hope, is that whatever selfishness there is in Kevin's game may be precisely that -- a selfish game developed over years of enablement where it was never demanded that he do anything but score. That's a hope, because it absolves Kevin himself from some of the blame. A selfish player in our situation case is no hope, a cancer needing to be cut out before it spreads. A player with a selfish one dimensional game on the other hand...well, where there is a will there is away right? Maybe. And this goes back to my other longstanding point on this. Not all players can do all things. If Kevin's head is in the wrong place, no hope, and I'd rather banish him then let him screw us up. But even IF his head is not the problem, that does not automatically mean that Kevin as all around player, hustler, defender, rebounder, passer, play through pain guy is even possible. But at least it could in some ideal world. You are asking a guy to foreswear everything he's been.
Now this all relates back to the topic at hand this way -- there are no teams with three 20pt scorers. And in recent weeks it has been amazing to discover that we just might have two consistent 20pt scoring rookies. Which is just..that's all time stuff there. Well, when Kevin returns, a Reke/Kevin/Casspi trio on the positive side = gives Reke two great pick your poison kickout options for the three. On the negative side gives him no help at all with the ballhandling. And on the Omri side means that those shots are going to get drained away. If Reke scores 20, and Kevin scores 20, Omri is NOT going to score 20. Even 15 is asking a lot. And if Kevin returns not as an all around basketball player, but just expecting to get his cutomary load of shots/possessions, that crunch gets even worse. Furthermore if Kevin returns as a scorer rather than a basketball player it opens up a new gaping chest wound in our defense that is not there with Omri and Donte paired. You could put Donte in in that situation and let him play defensive roleplayer without needing many shots, and then have Omri come off the bench where we would have more freedom as a top option. In any case Kevin's deportment upon return matters greatly not only to Reke, but certainly to the young wings as well. If he takes all the shots, they will be the first ones to lose them. If he plays no defense they will have to cover for him. He is already taking minutes so that now they are largely going to be a platoon at SF...before even taking into account Noc. It all matters.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I still start Greene when Martin comes back.
Evans
Martin
Greene
Thompson
Hawes
I love Casspi, and he is more consistent than Greene offensively, which IMO is better to have off the bench. This starting lineup can score whether Greene is playing well or not, It would seem to me like Casspi starting with these guys would be a waste of his production.
A Bench of
Udrih
Udoka
Casspi
Nocioni
Brockman
Looks good on offense and defense, where if Greene was in there instead of Casspi I would worry about our bench scoring with Udrih being the only real threat.
Evans
Martin
Greene
Thompson
Hawes
I love Casspi, and he is more consistent than Greene offensively, which IMO is better to have off the bench. This starting lineup can score whether Greene is playing well or not, It would seem to me like Casspi starting with these guys would be a waste of his production.
A Bench of
Udrih
Udoka
Casspi
Nocioni
Brockman
Looks good on offense and defense, where if Greene was in there instead of Casspi I would worry about our bench scoring with Udrih being the only real threat.
If Martin was, in fact, selfish it's because of the situation he's been put into the past couple of years. Kevin Martin is not a selfish player, never has been. He's pretty much done exactly what the coaching staff has asked of him, even when it made no sense whatsoever.
You keep throwing around terms like "selfish player" and "cancer" as though it's a well-known fact that Martin is both of these, or at least liable to become them. We'll all know soon enough, and if you end up being right, I will say so. I hope the reverse will also hold true.
The word around the ol' water cooler, is that the locker room is fun and that all our young players (and that includes Martin and Cisco) are really looking forward to the time when they'll all be suited up and ready to play some Kings basketball.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
There is not a coaching staff in history that said "ok guys, we want you to go out there and not defend, pass or rebound, oh and if you can take a little extra time to come back from your injuries that would be the cherry on top." That's not situational.
Selfishness isn't just about scoring -- it would be an obvious disaster if Kevin came back trying to be superchucker like he was to start this season, but you won't find me predicting that he will because that I DO think was at least partially coaching related. The rest...that's just basketball. In fact all of sports. Prima donna syndrome is always about putting up the pretty numbers without getting the uni dirty or a hair out of place. Kevin's been the wide receiver who wouldn't go over the middle or throw a block.
And again, Kevin's demeanor is such that maybe he really didn't want to be that way. But he lost his way and became that way anyway, not least because he got surrounded by worshippers and a desperate franchise who would tell him he could do no wrong. Entirely possible. But its come time to repent for those sins and become a true team player now, because nobody with the possible exception of Spencer plays that way on this new team. (and I guess that's the closet I can do to bringing this one back aorund to the Omri/Donte question).
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