Carmichael Dave vs. Jay Bilas

Double-K

Double-K

Starter
#31
#31
Honestly, it's quite silly. These pundits, as I have always say, have the best job in the world. Because if they say something wrong 90% of the time, it's their opinion. It's a prediction; but once they say one thing right, now they are the prophets (or worse, you can claim to have intimate knowledge with the players for the rest of your career... ala Stephen A Smith).

They always need materials to talk about, they do research just like we do research. They might get a little bit more of an exposure to the actual front offices of these professional sports teams. But when you are out of touch of said franchise, when you are facing a deadline trying to come up with something to say about it because the worst teams are going up for a draft annually, you gotta do your research.

If you don't do your research, then you ask yourself, what was the last narrative I used? What was the last thing I can latch on? For the Kings, they had a record of being dysfunctional. They were quite a laughing stock when they had their owner and this analytics front office. Oh, what about trading their franchise big for a bag of chips? If I just say those things, I bet no one will really notice. And if whoever in Sacramento comes out and challenges me, I'll just make it a spectacle and it'll appear to the general audience that they are desperate!

If I have any kids, and they are failing in school, I'm going to suggest a sports pundit career.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#32
#32
Double-K said:
Well, I understand why you'd discourage a listen, but, hear me out here, the fact that Jay Bilas just on national radio admitted that Mike Krzyzewski ran a "dysfunctional locker room" SOLELY to build on his own wrong interpretation of the word "Dysfunctional" is quite a satisfaction.
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A solid, solid point that I did not explore.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#34
#34
Bilas is right and this makes Sacramento look smalltime.

The function of a NBA team is to win. The Kings do not win. They are dysfunctional.

"but they get along" I've heard this line before. The function of the company is to win games. They do not function. The concern over Bilas saying so is ridiculous. Be concerned at how awful the organization is rather than what some reporter says about the locker room.
 
Dime Dropper

Dime Dropper

All-Star
#35
#35
swisshh said:
Bilas is right and this makes Sacramento look smalltime.

The function of a NBA team is to win. The Kings do not win. They are dysfunctional.

"but they get along" I've heard this line before. The function of the company is to win games. They do not function. The concern over Bilas saying so is ridiculous. Be concerned at how awful the organization is rather than what some reporter says about the locker room.
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Not the salient point. If he had said "dysfunctional franchise" he would have been right. "Dysfunctional locker room" has an entirely different meaning which I'm sure you're aware of, and I'm even more sure Bilas is aware of.

Not a huge deal, but he was wrong.
 
Hoovtrain

Hoovtrain

All-Star
#36
#36
swisshh said:
Bilas is right and this makes Sacramento look smalltime.

The function of a NBA team is to win. The Kings do not win. They are dysfunctional.

"but they get along" I've heard this line before. The function of the company is to win games. They do not function. The concern over Bilas saying so is ridiculous. Be concerned at how awful the organization is rather than what some reporter says about the locker room.
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I gave him the benefit of the doubt since technically that is a correct meaning of the word. However, it didn’t really seem to make sense when applied towards the locker room. It does make me believe that he was specially referencing internal issues within the locker room. It’s too bad he didn’t elaborate on it when he initially said it.
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#37
#37
The reason the Bilas team at Duke went from a losing season to 23 and 24 wins in the following seasons is because they had a functional locker room. The prelude to winning is having a group of guys committed to being the best, supporting each other, defining their roles, etc as indicative of a harmonious locker room regardless of wins and losses . Even though he won the debate this was the checkmate point Carmichael Dave could have made but missed. The other point he missed is acknowledging the basis of the accurate perception the Kings had a dysfunctional locker room was Boogie. I don't listen to his show but I know Carmichael Dave lips were firmly planted on Cousins backside during his tenure. To use the "SAT word" it would be disingenuous as a Kings fan not to acknowledge the Cousins locker room was dysfunctional. The guy was a moody hothead who blasted teammates, coaches and reporters when losses mounted. I don't think Carmichael Dave wanted to go there as a Boogie sycophant. It is simple. When Cousins was here, our locker room was dysfunctional. Karl, Rondo, Barnes contributed to the tension, but Cousins was the center of the storm. You destroy Bilas by drawing this distinction. When Cousins was here, dysfunction was rampant. The decision to trade Cousins was largely an admission of the dysfunction he caused. Since then the Kings have made it a theme to add high character guys (Vince, Temple, Hill, Justin Jackson, etc). Bilas is ignorant of these facts and Carmichael Dave was remiss not to raise this obvious point.
 
C

carmichaeldave

Bench
#38
#38
You should talk to him next time Blob. I’d pay good money to see if your amazing writing skills transferred to your live debating skills.

And I’ve never made secret my affection for DMC and his camp, much like my relationship with Ron Artest I’m drawn to those that I think have more beneath the surface, that people have a tough time getting to. I tend to believe in many cases if you take the time to scratch through the surface, you can find some pretty interesting things.

That being said, perhaps you’d take the time to read this link. I highly doubt you will, but it explains the dynamic with DMC a little better.




https://www.google.com/amp/sacramen...dave-the-end-of-the-demarcus-cousins-era/amp/
 
B

BeerNerd916

Bench
#39
#39
carmichaeldave said:
You should talk to him next time Blob. I’d pay good money to see if your amazing writing skills transferred to your live debating skills.

And I’ve never made secret my affection for DMC and his camp, much like my relationship with Ron Artest I’m drawn to those that I think have more beneath the surface, that people have a tough time getting to. I tend to believe in many cases if you take the time to scratch through the surface, you can find some pretty interesting things.

That being said, perhaps you’d take the time to read this link. I highly doubt you will, but it explains the dynamic with DMC a little better.




https://www.google.com/amp/sacramen...dave-the-end-of-the-demarcus-cousins-era/amp/
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Dave I think you did a good job rapping. Dude was being an ass and he knew it. Not much you could really do in the moment if he wasnt willing to look at it from a different perspective. He said the locker room, and just using semantics here but it isnt the locker room, it's the franchise. It has been dysfunctional for years albeit on a better path than before currently. Not that he gives a flying.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#40
#40
Dime Dropper said:
Not the salient point. If he had said "dysfunctional franchise" he would have been right. "Dysfunctional locker room" has an entirely different meaning which I'm sure you're aware of, and I'm even more sure Bilas is aware of.

Not a huge deal, but he was wrong.
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Sorry, but this is what's entirely wrong with part of the Kings fan base. You think the locker room is to get along and some of that mentality comes from the attention spent on blaming things on Cousins.

The function of the team is to win. Nothing about the locker room lead to wins. Was the focus of the locker room winning? Dave's best point was the mentoring by vets, but the vets are only there for that. There's been no example of what winning looks like in that locker room for over a decade. One guy can't set that up. One vet can't make that happen.

The locker room is an extension of everything else going on. It is not immune from the losing and incompetent culture at the top. When there is no skin in the game up top then there is no skin in the game in the locker room.

Hell, to his credit, the one thing Cousins did was not accept losing. He hated it. And if your locker room is chill after losing 7/10 games then its a bad sign.
 
Dime Dropper

Dime Dropper

All-Star
#41
#41
swisshh said:
Sorry, but this is what's entirely wrong with part of the Kings fan base. You think the locker room is to get along and some of that mentality comes from the attention spent on blaming things on Cousins.

The function of the team is to win. Nothing about the locker room lead to wins. Was the focus of the locker room winning? Dave's best point was the mentoring by vets, but the vets are only there for that. There's been no example of what winning looks like in that locker room for over a decade. One guy can't set that up. One vet can't make that happen.

The locker room is an extension of everything else going on. It is not immune from the losing and incompetent culture at the top. When there is no skin in the game up top then there is no skin in the game in the locker room.

Hell, to his credit, the one thing Cousins did was not accept losing. He hated it. And if your locker room is chill after losing 7/10 games then its a bad sign.
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You'll have to try again. I'm probably the biggest Cousins defender left on this forum. You are looking too far into it. "Dysfunctional locker room" has a very clear meaning in NBA terms. It's that simple.

The rest of your post is a completely different argument that I don't necessarily disagree with. But doesn't have any relation to an incorrect statement though - those are external factors. Again, I'm not saying this is a huge deal. But there is a right and a wrong side. That's all.
 
parker

parker

Bench
#42
#42
I really don't want to listen to the interview (sounds like a train wreck), but am curious what happened. I gather that Bilas said the Kings had a dsyfunctional locker room last year. Dave disputed that. Bilas re-defined dsyfunctional, which was followed by 18 minutes of a dsyfunctional back and forth/interview?
 
Dime Dropper

Dime Dropper

All-Star
#43
#43
parker said:
I really don't want to listen to the interview (sounds like a train wreck), but am curious what happened. I gather that Bilas said the Kings had a dsyfunctional locker room last year. Dave disputed that. Bilas re-defined dsyfunctional, which was followed by 18 minutes of a dsyfunctional back and forth/interview?
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In a nuthell, yes.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#44
#44
parker said:
I really don't want to listen to the interview (sounds like a train wreck), but am curious what happened. I gather that Bilas said the Kings had a dsyfunctional locker room last year. Dave disputed that. Bilas re-defined dsyfunctional, which was followed by 18 minutes of a dsyfunctional back and forth/interview?
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Basically he was just being lazy and going off the old narrative of the Kings by saying they had a dysfunctional locker room. When he got called out, instead of just admitting he was wrong or changing his statement so it made sense, he brought out the dictionary and doubled down on his mistake. He then used the most literal definition possible to re-define the term "dysfunctional locker room". He's not wrong from a scholarly standpoint but he's wrong as far as communicating with other humans goes because I've probably heard the term ten thousand times before but I've never heard anyone other than Jay Bilas use it in the context that dysfunctional locker room means that a team has more losses than wins.

Really it's not even a big deal at all but it's kind of amusing to see how far some people will go to not admit that they misspoke.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#46
#46
swisshh said:
Bilas is right and this makes Sacramento look smalltime.

The function of a NBA team is to win. The Kings do not win. They are dysfunctional.

"but they get along" I've heard this line before. The function of the company is to win games. They do not function. The concern over Bilas saying so is ridiculous. Be concerned at how awful the organization is rather than what some reporter says about the locker room.
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Are you certain that the Kings' primary goal last season was to have a winning record? I don't think it was.

In what way did the locker room contribute to losing last year? Is there any evidence that something from the locker room was causing the Kings to lose or was hindering Fox's development. I haven't heard or read anything from anyone with access to that locker room that something was happening?
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#48
#48
swisshh said:
Bilas is right and this makes Sacramento look smalltime.

The function of a NBA team is to win. The Kings do not win. They are dysfunctional.

"but they get along" I've heard this line before. The function of the company is to win games. They do not function. The concern over Bilas saying so is ridiculous. Be concerned at how awful the organization is rather than what some reporter says about the locker room.
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Nope. Wrong.

The locker room is not dysfunctional. The purpose of the locker room is not to win or lose. The purpose of the locker room is to be a place where the team dresses, meets at half-time, showers, meets the press, etc. It functions best when the players on the team get along.

Bilas didn't check his facts. He thought there was still dissension in our locker room. He had to double and triple down on his error for the simple reason if he backpedaled he would have been exposed for making a comment based on out-of-date information.

Had he said the team was dysfunctional (which is what you just said above) we wouldn't be having this discussion to this extent. Words matter. Bilas made a big deal out of that, and he was wrong. Lawyers do not admit their own fallacies. He, much like Fonzie on Happy Days, could not let that one 5-letter word pass his lips. He most likely cannot even fathom it as a possibility.

I WILL be concerned when someone with the gravitas of Jay Bilas makes a patently absurd statement about the Kings. It's not right, it's not fair and it's not professional.

To add to the ridiculous nature of Bilas' stance, he even ridiculed Dave on Twitter post-interview. He was caught in a trap - acknowledge your mistake OR hang on to it until the bitter end. Unfortunately for Bilas (at least in the eyes of a lot of Kings fans), he lost a lot of credibility as far as his reporting on the Kings go, because we know much better than he the state of the team, the front office, the locker room, the new food vendors in the new arena, etc. I also seriously doubt his veracity in his statement that he didn't even know Grant Napear was part of the broadcast team for the Kings.

Face it. Jay Bilas faked indignation because he hadn't done his homework and, as Double-K also mentioned, he didn't think anybody would notice.
 
Hoovtrain

Hoovtrain

All-Star
#49
#49
VF21 said:
Nope. Wrong.

The locker room is not dysfunctional. The purpose of the locker room is not to win or lose. The purpose of the locker room is to be a place where the team dresses, meets at half-time, showers, meets the press, etc. It functions best when the players on the team get along.

Bilas didn't check his facts. He thought there was still dissension in our locker room. He had to double and triple down on his error for the simple reason if he backpedaled he would have been exposed for making a comment based on out-of-date information.

Had he said the team was dysfunctional (which is what you just said above) we wouldn't be having this discussion to this extent. Words matter. Bilas made a big deal out of that, and he was wrong. Lawyers do not admit their own fallacies. He, much like Fonzie on Happy Days, could not let that one 5-letter word pass his lips. He most likely cannot even fathom it as a possibility.

I WILL be concerned when someone with the gravitas of Jay Bilas makes a patently absurd statement about the Kings. It's not right, it's not fair and it's not professional.

To add to the ridiculous nature of Bilas' stance, he even ridiculed Dave on Twitter post-interview. He was caught in a trap - acknowledge your mistake OR hang on to it until the bitter end. Unfortunately for Bilas (at least in the eyes of a lot of Kings fans), he lost a lot of credibility as far as his reporting on the Kings go, because we know much better than he the state of the team, the front office, the locker room, the new food vendors in the new arena, etc. I also seriously doubt his veracity in his statement that he didn't even know Grant Napear was part of the broadcast team for the Kings.

Face it. Jay Bilas faked indignation because he hadn't done his homework and, as Double-K also mentioned, he didn't think anybody would notice.
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Uh Fonzie never had to say he was sorry because Fonzie was never wrong ever!
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#50
#50
ESP47 said:
He's not wrong from a scholarly standpoint
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No. He is wrong any way you slice it. The locker room is not where a team competes. The locker room is where the team strategizes, commiserates, reviews, game plans. It is the mental emotional and interpersonal realm. It is where the team comes together or splits at the seams. There is a divisive or cohesive energy whether a team is doing well or poorly. The point that Bilas was trying to make is the locker room was dysfunctional because "losing". Winning and losing is independent of whether a locker room is rife or void of conflict. You can win and hate each other. You can lose and coexist harmoniously and conspire to reverse your fate. That is what Duke did in Bilas freshman year and what the Kings are trying to do now. Dysfunction or function in a locker room is relative to the character and personality of the involved parties to hierarchal degree. Even if he wants to resort to a literal definition of the word he cannot disassociate the adjective from the noun, the descriptor from that being described. Bilas is smart enough to know this yet he tried to use his legal background and debate tactics to weasel his way out of a weak position. What he failed to recognize or admit is he was relying on an old invalid narrative. The locker room was dysfunctional when Boogie was brooding to and fro. Not only is that old news, the new and improved locker room is a consequence of that scarring experience.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#52
#52
Blob said:
No. He is wrong any way you slice it. The locker room is not where a team competes. The locker room is where the team strategizes, commiserates, reviews, game plans. It is the mental emotional and interpersonal realm. It is where the team comes together or splits at the seams. There is a divisive or cohesive energy whether a team is doing well or poorly. The point that Bilas was trying to make is the locker room was dysfunctional because "losing". Winning and losing is independent of whether a locker room is rife or void of conflict. You can win and hate each other. You can lose and coexist harmoniously and conspire to reverse your fate. That is what Duke did in Bilas freshman year and what the Kings are trying to do now. Dysfunction or function in a locker room is relative to the character and personality of the involved parties to hierarchal degree. Even if he wants to resort to a literal definition of the word he cannot disassociate the adjective from the noun, the descriptor from that being described. Bilas is smart enough to know this yet he tried to use his legal background and debate tactics to weasel his way out of a weak position. What he failed to recognize or admit is he was relying on an old invalid narrative. The locker room was dysfunctional when Boogie was brooding to and fro. Not only is that old news, the new and improved locker room is a consequence of that scarring experience.
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Hrm. Great minds and all that... :p
 
D

DHR

Prospect
#55
#55
This whole thing reminds me so much of when Pete D went on air after the Malone debacle and just kept doubling and tripling down on his decision and lying about his role in it. That was much more disgusting for obvious reasons because Gerbil is a vile creature and set this team back years.
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#57
#57
Double-K said:
Well, I understand why you'd discourage a listen, but, hear me out here, the fact that Jay Bilas just on national radio admitted that Mike Krzyzewski ran a "dysfunctional locker room" SOLELY to build on his own wrong interpretation of the word "Dysfunctional" is quite a satisfaction.
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I couldn’t believe that either. Went as far as actually saying the locker room at Duke was disfunctional when he first got their, solely so he could be consistent with his stupid argument on his Kings statement. Once he said that, he was NEVER backing down in the argument (not that I expected him to at this point).
 
Double-K

Double-K

Starter
#58
#58
TaxMan said:
I couldn’t believe that either. Went as far as actually saying the locker room at Duke was disfunctional when he first got their, solely so he could be consistent with his stupid argument on his Kings statement. Once he said that, he was NEVER backing down in the argument (not that I expected him to at this point).
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I guess your own ego can really be your worst enemy sometimes. He could've easily just go, "hey, I said this, I was wrong, I apologise" and that would be all. I bet not many national audience even care about Dave's radio show that much anyway.
 
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