Carmichael Dave Show on the Game

[TehSwimGuy]

Jason is an idiot. The fans making Tyreke a target? No. He paints the examples of how they've done that, including C-Webb. Webber got that label because at the end of his career in Sac he started ballhogging. As much as I love the guy. And he says all the Kings are guilty? Thornton, yes, Salmons yes. But he labels Jimmer to some extent too? I see Jimmer being the passer, only drawing people to him and then passing off to draw the extra man.

Some of these radio people need to be a little more critical. Yes, too early to press the panic button. And at the least, Westphal was at least critical of his team. I'm hoping that pays off and they know what they need to work on.

I'll be the first to say I'm the most critical of Westphal, but I did like his comments about the team after the game.

But the sportscasters need to see that there's a reason Tyreke is being painted with that label.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Boozer's comment to the post game interview:

Wow. That team has a lot of talent. They have a lot of 1v1 talent.

 

[Bricklayer]

But the sportscasters need to see that there's a reason Tyreke is being painted with that label.

Do they?

Sacramento fans embarrassed themselves with the Webber debacle, and in a lot of ways you guys have never recovered. You rather consistently look for scapegoats, elevate the wrong players on pedastals, and call for the firing of anybody and everybody anymore. And hey, that flies in Philly or New York, because they are Philly and New York. But smaller cities need their innocence, otherwise why on earth would a player want to put up with the same ole crap ina city with half the amenities?

 

[Section 101]

Do they?

Sacramento fans embarrassed themselves with the Webber debacle, and in a lot of ways you guys have never recovered. You rather consistently look for scapegoats, elevate the wrong players on pedastals, and call for the firing of anybody and everybody anymore. And hey, that flies in Philly or New York, because they are Philly and New York. But smaller cities need their innocence, otherwise why on earth would a player want to put up with the same ole crap ina city with half the amenities?

I know you don't like Thorpe, but here is his first analysis on Rubio

Dec. 29: It's fair to question Rubio's talent for scoring; I, too, remain concerned that he's lost some of his ability (and confidence) to make shots and get buckets. But there is no way to question his ability to move the ball, push the pace and make astounding assists. Rubio is the definition of a point guard, as he can make people better by getting them the ball in position to make the easiest basket possible. Of all the players I watched on tape this week, I enjoyed watching him the most. And we should consider this: In the new NBA, where players feel emboldened more than ever to pick their team without considering only salary, Rubio will be a magnet for free agents.

Notice the bolded part. Now Evans on the other hand has a rep that players do not like to play with him and he's a selfish player. Now whether you agree or disagree does not matter. What matters is the preception around the league because that is the info players will base their decisions.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Do they?

Sacramento fans embarrassed themselves with the Webber debacle, and in a lot of ways you guys have never recovered. You rather consistently look for scapegoats, elevate the wrong players on pedastals, and call for the firing of anybody and everybody anymore. And hey, that flies in Philly or New York, because they are Philly and New York. But smaller cities need their innocence, otherwise why on earth would a player want to put up with the same ole crap ina city with half the amenities?

How did Sac embarrass themselves over the Webber debacle? I question your analysis. Webber people criticized when he would get 22 points on 11 for 33 shooting or some terrible shot %.

The scapegoat thing, I would more appropriately use Adelman as an example. He was scapegoated hardcore by Sac fans.

But basically, you're saying that since we're a small market team, we should let players do whatever they want and not be criticized so that they can put up with Sac...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Notice the bolded part. Now Evans on the other hand has a rep that players do not like to play with him and he's a selfish player. Now whether you agree or disagree does not matter. What matters is the preception around the league because that is the info players will base their decisions.

Cite?

 

[IfAt1st]

Kings fans (and KF's.com) have consistently scapegoated players while shielding/defending others.

Beno was scapegoated for YEARS, and blamed for every defensive woe the Kings had.
Hey - how's that perimeter defense doing with Beno gone?
Nope - no opposing guards carving up the Kings with penetration and/or dishing for assists THIS year, nope!

Kenny Thomas was scapegoated out of town, even when he was putting up double-doubles. (Of course, by the end of his interminable stint here, he deserved the scorn)

Carl Landry was equally scapegoated (most significantly by Bricklayer himself) even when he scored needed points at a high %.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Kings fans (and KF's.com) have consistently scapegoated players while shielding/defending others.

Beno was scapegoated for YEARS, and blamed for every defensive woe the Kings had.
Hey - how's that perimeter defense doing with Beno gone?
Nope - no opposing guards carving up the Kings with penetration and/or dishing for assists THIS year, nope!

Kenny Thomas was scapegoated out of town, even when he was putting up double-doubles. (Of course, by the end of his interminable stint here, he deserved the scorn)

Carl Landry was equally scapegoated (most significantly by Bricklayer himself) even when he scored needed points at a high %.

I mean, it's not exactly limited to Sac. It's like that in every market. I have yet to see a team where the fans aren't critical of the team.

For instance, I know the Lakers are a bigger market, but the fans were scapegoating Kobe, Pau Gasol (since last year), and on and on.

 

[IfAt1st]

I mean, it's not exactly limited to Sac. It's like that in every market. I have yet to see a team where the fans aren't critical of the team.

I'm not talking about being critical.
I'm talking about scapegoating - blaming most of the woes of the team on one or 2 people.

Being critical means to analyze the play on the court and point out when players (or coaches) are making mistakes.
Many Kings fans are critical - that's fine and dandy - you shouldn't sugar-coat crap, and make believe mistakes aren't made.

The problem has been when Kings fans ignore some players mistakes, and pile on hate on the pointed-to player for the year.

Actually, that's an interesting question - with the team so far this year, who's going to be the player who is shoved on the Pedestal Of Scapegoating?
That would make an interesting poll.
Obviously it will be Paul Westphal first - but after that, who will absorb the fans' ire?

 

[TehSwimGuy]

I'm not talking about being critical.
I'm talking about scapegoating - blaming most of the woes of the team on one or 2 people.

Being critical means to analyze the play on the court and point out when players (or coaches) are making mistakes.
Many Kings fans are critical - that's fine and dandy - you shouldn't sugar-coat crap, and make believe mistakes aren't made.

The problem has been when Kings fans ignore some players mistakes, and pile on hate on the pointed-to player for the year.

Actually, that's an interesting question - with the team so far this year, who's going to be the player who is shoved on the Pedestal Of Scapegoating?
That would make an interesting poll.
Obviously it will be Paul Westphal first - but after that, who will absorb the fans' ire?

Honestly, I feel like the "Scapegoating" has been more apparent in recent years. People will call players on repeated mistakes. I mean, when Beno or Landry or whomever else would make mistakes, I would never call for them to go. Everyone is accountable for their own mistakes.

Webber was a bad example. People got ticked off when he would hoist up terrible %s in FG in the twilight of his career after his injury. At least IMO, the coach has been consistently scapegoated. From Adelman to Musselman to those other interim coaches, etc.

I always thought Adelman was unfairly scapegoated by the media and fans. They called for his head because he didn't win them a championship, even with >.500 and consistent playoff appearances. They wanted more, and personally I felt that it was terrible how the Magoofs treated Adelman and went behind his back.

How's that working out...yeah.

I actually have consistently thought that the buck stops at the Magoofs. Generally I think of them and their cheapness as the reason for having this product.

Getting rid of Adelman, his coaching staff (does Carrill even help with the Kings still?), and not having a set, proven coaching staff before cycling through all these different rotations and team changes.

 

[Mad D]

does Carrill even help with the Kings still?

He was there Tyreke's rookie season.

 

[Glenn]

Scapegoating is irrational and criticizing is rational. There is nothing wrong with criticizing although I would like to see a compliment every now and then. We tend to focus on one or two guys as the cause of all our problems and nothing is as simple as that. For instance, why no threads about JJ Hickson? This guy was a starter last year and played almost 30 minutes a game. Now what is he contributing? We'd rather point our fingers at Salmons.

 

[SacTownKid]

Kings fans (and KF's.com) have consistently scapegoated players while shielding/defending others.

Beno was scapegoated for YEARS, and blamed for every defensive woe the Kings had.
Hey - how's that perimeter defense doing with Beno gone?
Nope - no opposing guards carving up the Kings with penetration and/or dishing for assists THIS year, nope!

Kenny Thomas was scapegoated out of town, even when he was putting up double-doubles. (Of course, by the end of his interminable stint here, he deserved the scorn)

Carl Landry was equally scapegoated (most significantly by Bricklayer himself) even when he scored needed points at a high %.

Do you really need to ask that? Now it at least can stay on the same planet as the opposing wing group.

Put Beno out there and Rose goes for 99 and doesn't have to use the pick and roll to get just about every basket he has.

Players are scapegoated for good reasons, of course, sometimes it's exaggerated, but it's not people making it up. If someone wants to look the other way when Reke is being super linear and selfish in his play, well go ahead, but a duck is a duck. However it's not all his fault sometimes. The team just needs to get some more time to learn their system and eachother.

It's crazy, the Kings are the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, and Hayes, Salmons, and Garcia are the ones bringing the average up! 3 weeks of training camp, guys in and out for most of it, and almost an entirely new roster and there are problems!?!? no way!! It doesn't excuse selfish play nor does it excuse screwy rotations, but Westphal did much better with that last night and kept a solid rotation going after halftime.

 

[D13]

He was there Tyreke's rookie season.

Pete Carrill was here last year helping also... IMO it'd be a good idea to get him back in here quick. If anything to help work on those freethrow percentages... and I'd love him to be part of mentoring Jimmer into things..

 

[Section 101]

Cite?

Just look over the national articles the past 2 years. There was the incident with Noc it was mentioned.

 

[mac]

Kings fans (and KF's.com) have consistently scapegoated players while shielding/defending others.

Beno was scapegoated for YEARS, and blamed for every defensive woe the Kings had.
Hey - how's that perimeter defense doing with Beno gone?
Nope - no opposing guards carving up the Kings with penetration and/or dishing for assists THIS year, nope!

Kenny Thomas was scapegoated out of town, even when he was putting up double-doubles. (Of course, by the end of his interminable stint here, he deserved the scorn)

Carl Landry was equally scapegoated (most significantly by Bricklayer himself) even when he scored needed points at a high %.

Was Beno really blamed for every defensive woe? Really? If I recall loads of people stuck up for Beno saying that the quicker guards in the NBA would just blow by anyone guarding them. I also recall people praising him for putting in effort on the defensive end last year.

As to your question about perimeter defense, I actually think that nobody not named Derrick Rose has been carving up the Kings with penetration and dishing for assists. If you're going to base our entire perimeter defense on how we guarded Derrick F-ing Rose I have nothing to say. Did the Lakers carve us up and dish for lots of assists? Did the Blazers? I seem to recall Gerald Wallace getting lots of his points off back cuts and just overpowering his defender to the rim from the post area. Oh and of course the transition baskets.

You're a very knowledgeable fan who understands the game, and you have my utmost respect for that. I know you're not some troll who just spouts nonsense. I only saw you turn up last season and basically defend Beno every game though, and I was an advocate for what Beno brought on the offensive end myself. I always said that we would be an excellent guy to bring off the bench when we were good. That said, I sometimes wonder whether you have a bit of a vendetta against anyone who ever criticized Beno, and a lot of said frustration seems to be taken out on Tyreke. It's not that he doesn't make loads of mistakes, I just think you're being unjustifiably critical of the whole team at times, and especially of Tyreke. I only hope that you do this out of a desire to see the Kings really mature and win games, and not just because you don't like Tyreke Evans.

 

[Tetsujin]

Carl Landry was equally scapegoated (most significantly by Bricklayer himself) even when he scored needed points at a high %.

Carl Landry was "scapegoated" because he was essentially the Kevin Martin of big men. If he played defense like Chuck Hayes that would be one thing but unfortunately he played defense like a curtain blowing in the breeze, that is essentially none at all. Combine that with the fact that he took away shots from Cousins and generally could not rebound to save his life and he was pretty much doomed from the start.

 

[Tetsujin]

But he labels Jimmer to some extent too? I see Jimmer being the passer, only drawing people to him and then passing off to draw the extra man.

I'm sorry but you lost me here. Jimmer was just as guilty of stupidness as the rest of our guards last night.

 

[mac]

I'm sorry but you lost me here. Jimmer was just as guilty of stupidness as the rest of our guards last night.

Agreed, more so in the second half. And I'm only referring to the bulls game. Against the Blazers and Lakers Jimmer looked pretty fine on the offensive end, slightly hesitant but overall performing well for a rookie. Against the Bulls he repeatedly took the ball into the paint and got trapped.

IMO against the Bulls:
Tyreke was stupid for gambling for so many steals
Marcus was stupid for trying to play hero and forcing
Jimmer for the above mentioned reason

 

[TehSwimGuy]

I'm sorry but you lost me here. Jimmer was just as guilty of stupidness as the rest of our guards last night.

Sorry, I'll clarify:

Jimmer definitely had some stupid moments. But the way it was painted on the CD show today, the commentator was saying, "If you're going to paint Tyreke as a ballhog, then Thornton, Jimmer, blah blah, are just as guilty".

He was guilty of bonehead moves here or there, but certainly not being a ballhog.

 

[IfAt1st]

mac - I could respond to every point in your post, but it veers dangerously into being about me territory.

Kings fans scapegoating players for years is not about me.

Heck, I remember when Peja was being pilloried for his "terrible defense" and "terrible rebounding". Yes, I've been reading KF's since..... around 2004, IIRC.

And to be clear - I desperately hope that Tyreke gets significantly better and the Kings become a competitive team again, instead of the joke amongst the league they've been for 5 years. He has nothing to do with Beno, BTW, and I'm critical of Tyreke because very few KF's have been for over 2 years.

But again, this isn't about me. Please return to non ad-hominem discussion.

 

[Bricklayer]

mac - I could respond to every point in your post, but it veers dangerously into being about me territory.

Kings fans scapegoating players for years is not about me.

Heck, I remember when Peja was being pilloried for his "terrible defense" and "terrible rebounding". Yes, I've been reading KF's since..... around 2004, IIRC.

And to be clear - I desperately hope that Tyreke gets significantly better and the Kings become a competitive team again, instead of the joke amongst the league they've been for 5 years. He has nothing to do with Beno, BTW, and I'm critical of Tyreke because very few KF's have been for over 2 years.

But again, this isn't about me. Please return to non ad-hominem discussion.

Oh of course its about you. You are one of a handful of posters who spend a good 80% of their posts talking about one player's deficiencies. And since I am always here I can ever trace the genesis of it for most of you. There were the Rubio people, still butthurt to this day that we did not take their boy wiht that pick. There were the Kevin people, upset that Reke's emergence spelled the end of the Kevin era. There were the people who reacted against the 20-5-5 hype the same way there ar peole that instinctively react against any hype. Now there are Jimmer people in a pattern that goes way way back for me. I can remember this all the way back to my early days on the board, with the relentless Peja and even Hedo fans lookig for the spotlight for their guy, not the team. everybody has their reasons for being irrational. You are fairly unique. I think the one and only Benoist to resent the shadow Reke cast on your guy.

But regardless, peeps are so singleminded, so neurotically hung up on a certain player and the certain storyline they have for him, that you are easy to track. Most posters can pop up almost anywhere talking about anything. Every poster has their hangups, but there is this healthy subset of posters who's lone contribution and apparent great pleasure in life is in being relentlessly negative toward a single player, finding ways to interpret anything and everything regarding that player in the absolute most negative light possible. It would be amusing if it were not so problematic. We used to get posters coming through with stuff like this all the time back in the golden days of the team. They were called trolling Lakers fans.

 

[Section 101]

Oh of course its about you. You are one of a handful of posters who spend a good 80% of their posts talking about one player's deficiencies. And since I am always here I can ever trace the genesis of it for most of you. There were the Rubio people, still butthurt to this day that we did not take their boy wiht that pick. There were the Kevin people, upset that Reke's emergence spelled the end of the Kevin era. There were the people who reacted against the 20-5-5 hype the same way there ar peole that instinctively react against any hype. Now there are Jimmer people in a pattern that goes way way back for me. I can remember this all the way back to my early days on the board, with the relentless Peja and even Hedo fans lookig for the spotlight for their guy, not the team. everybody has their reasons for being irrational. You are fairly unique. I think the one and only Benoist to resent the shadow Reke cast on your guy.

But regardless, peeps are so singleminded, so neurotically hung up on a certain player and the certain storyline they have for him, that you are easy to track. Most posters can pop up almost anywhere talking about anything. Every poster has their hangups, but there is this healthy subset of posters who's lone contribution and apparent great pleasure in life is in being relentlessly negative toward a single player, finding ways to interpret anything and everything regarding that player in the absolute most negative light possible. It would be amusing if it were not so problematic. We used to get posters coming through with stuff like this all the time back in the golden days of the team. They were called trolling Lakers fans.

The same could be said of the Evans people who think he's an all star/super star.

 

[Bricklayer]

The same could be said of the Evans people who think he's an all star/super star.

No the same could not. I do not know of one Evans jocker on here who wastes his/her time in every single post and every single thread touting Reke as the answer to everything. There are many peole who realize he's quite good. Few if any who would spend half the time they do explaining how good he is were it not for the constant spurious attacks from the people who have let their dislike of Reke dominate their entire posting behavior.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

No the same could not. I do not know of one Evans jocker on here who wastes his/her time in every single post and every single thread touting Reke as the answer to everything. There are many peole who realize he's quite good. Few if any who would spend half the time they do explaining how good he is were it not for the constant spurious attacks from the people who have let their dislike of Reke dominate their entire posting behavior.

Alright, since I've lost my post twice I'm going to make this short. No need to turn this into a personal attack. Calling posters' claims "spurious" and associating them with "trolling Laker fans" is much less than I'd expect from a longstanding forum member and moderator, to boot. Mac kept his reply very very respectful. No need for you to go and turn it into ad hominem attacks up the wazoo.

Back to Discussion:

Like some perpetuated stereotypes (i.e for example, Asians and driving), these many seemingly unfounded and "spurious" attacks have some slight grains of truth here or there. So yes, there might be excessive posting about Evans, or there might be things you don't like to read about--but that's a nature of a Sports forum. People will write in to complain or criticize, but such as the case for review sites, much less inclined to discuss more when everything is done right. But anyways, sure, he's good, but he's no All Star. Not yet.

And also,

Quote Originally Posted by Bricklayer View Post
Do they?

Sacramento fans embarrassed themselves with the Webber debacle, and in a lot of ways you guys have never recovered. You rather consistently look for scapegoats, elevate the wrong players on pedastals, and call for the firing of anybody and everybody anymore. And hey, that flies in Philly or New York, because they are Philly and New York. But smaller cities need their innocence, otherwise why on earth would a player want to put up with the same ole crap ina city with half the amenities?

1) How did Sac fans embarrass themselves? Webb was in the twilight of his career and hoisting ridiculous 10-33 numbers. I was sad to see him go, but I don't see reasons that criticizing him would be bad...Maybe you feel they did, but I have yet to see some widespread opinion on that matter. Clarification would be great, since explanation has been absent since you posted that.

2) Your last statement is illogical. Smaller cities, innocence, and players wanting to play there? Please. They go for money, championship potential, and playoff potential. In that order. Players don't exactly give a flying crap what the fans talk about on forum boards.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Cite?

Just look over the national articles the past 2 years. There was the incident with Noc it was mentioned.

I'm afraid that "Just look over the national articles" is a little vague. I can, however, vouch that I have not seen anything resembling what you allege in USA Today, or seen or heard any publication or sports program here in the Mid-Atlantic (or the Mid-South, where I also spend considerable time) say anything like what you allege, in any shape, form or fashion. What "national articles" would you be referring to?

I certainly believe that Nocioni would complain about playing with Evans but, given Nocioni's tenure in Sacramento, and how he came off as a general malcontent, unless there are other players who will corroborate what he says, I'm not prepared to find his claims credible.

 

[swisshh]

Oh of course its about you. You are one of a handful of posters who spend a good 80% of their posts talking about one player's deficiencies. And since I am always here I can ever trace the genesis of it for most of you. There were the Rubio people, still butthurt to this day that we did not take their boy wiht that pick. There were the Kevin people, upset that Reke's emergence spelled the end of the Kevin era. There were the people who reacted against the 20-5-5 hype the same way there ar peole that instinctively react against any hype. Now there are Jimmer people in a pattern that goes way way back for me. I can remember this all the way back to my early days on the board, with the relentless Peja and even Hedo fans lookig for the spotlight for their guy, not the team. everybody has their reasons for being irrational. You are fairly unique. I think the one and only Benoist to resent the shadow Reke cast on your guy.

But regardless, peeps are so singleminded, so neurotically hung up on a certain player and the certain storyline they have for him, that you are easy to track. Most posters can pop up almost anywhere talking about anything. Every poster has their hangups, but there is this healthy subset of posters who's lone contribution and apparent great pleasure in life is in being relentlessly negative toward a single player, finding ways to interpret anything and everything regarding that player in the absolute most negative light possible. It would be amusing if it were not so problematic. We used to get posters coming through with stuff like this all the time back in the golden days of the team. They were called trolling Lakers fans.

Address his points brick or stop posting. Nobody cares if you're a mod. This is a discussion. People dislike things for valid reasons. They state so and give their reasons. You are stuck on haters gonna hate like my little nephew posting on a Justin Bieber board.

You're a grown up, act like one.

 

[slugking50]

Pete Carrill was here last year helping also... IMO it'd be a good idea to get him back in here quick. If anything to help work on those freethrow percentages... and I'd love him to be part of mentoring Jimmer into things..

Coachie will be in town a few times during the season to help out with players. I believe the 9 game home stand is one.

 

[Bricklayer]

Address his points brick or stop posting. Nobody cares if you're a mod. This is a discussion. People dislike things for valid reasons. They state so and give their reasons. You are stuck on haters gonna hate like my little nephew posting on a Justin Bieber board.

You're a grown up, act like one.

Oh, you really should care that I am a mod. I may rarely use those powers, but relentless and singleminded venom spewed on the board toward a major player is clearly within my purview as it seeps out and degrades the experience for everyone.

And apparently there is more wisdom to be found on Justin Bieber boards than I thought there was. That irrational flash of anger when the guy you don't like gets credited with anything, when the announcers talk him up. The quick scurry out onto the net to try to find a way to chop that down. The smirk when the guy stumbles and quick run out to pile on and say I told you so. These are unfortunately very universal human responses. And very problematic.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

I'm afraid that "Just look over the national articles" is a little vague. I can, however, vouch that I have not seen anything resembling what you allege in USA Today, or seen or heard any publication or sports program here in the Mid-Atlantic (or the Mid-South, where I also spend considerable time) say anything like what you allege, in any shape, form or fashion. What "national articles" would you be referring to?

I certainly believe that Nocioni would complain about playing with Evans but, given Nocioni's tenure in Sacramento, and how he came off as a general malcontent, unless there are other players who will corroborate what he says, I'm not prepared to find his claims credible.

Agreed, I can't find that article either. I know Evans rightfully called him out on poor shot taking...but I haven't seen anything that was a complaint about playing with Evans. I'll have to look around a little more.