Bucks offering MCW for Ben Mclemore
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I thought Ben was "out of the rotation"? And if you are wrong, hardly a shocker, and he is included in the rotation, Ben shows more potential as a defender than MCW. And your last sentence "a defacto litmus test that everybody else has to space above all else" is drivel to convey a sense of insight that amounts to smoke and mirrors. Let me bottomline this for you and those seeking clarification: B-Mac as a King is not dead. Reports of his imminent demise are premature, I said so before training camp and adhere to that sentiment with more conviction than ever.
There are pretenders in the know and contenders who know. Astute readers know the difference. There is reason Joerger instituted a high post offense featuring Boogie, and it is consistent with what I have been saying about his skill set for 2-3 years. Other fans have to alter their assessment of Boogie as a low post player and classic big to save face vs. swallowing their pride. NO shame in being wrong but I have more respect for the fan who admits to inaccuracy vs. continued pretense or shifting the goalposts.
For example I think I misjudged Papa. I am NOT afraid to say so. I thought if he dropped weight we would see a more active and reactive player. Combined with a 7'1" frame, I envisioned an imposing force who would challenge or block shots, not a guy who would be 0.5 to one step slow to challenge shots or secure position down low. We have a limited sample size so far but it hasn't been pretty, and I am not hesitant to tell you what I see so far contradicts what I expected to see. I expected more.
This why you can count on the Blob. I am not out to defend my positions. I am out to seek truth, and the truth among other truths is Ben on the RISE. Papa is in holding pattern, not a bust yet, but in definitive need to justify his draft position, to give a glimmer of hope and optimism to fans who demand and expect more than a mechanical slug.
There are pretenders in the know and contenders who know. Astute readers know the difference. There is reason Joerger instituted a high post offense featuring Boogie, and it is consistent with what I have been saying about his skill set for 2-3 years. Other fans have to alter their assessment of Boogie as a low post player and classic big to save face vs. swallowing their pride. NO shame in being wrong but I have more respect for the fan who admits to inaccuracy vs. continued pretense or shifting the goalposts.
For example I think I misjudged Papa. I am NOT afraid to say so. I thought if he dropped weight we would see a more active and reactive player. Combined with a 7'1" frame, I envisioned an imposing force who would challenge or block shots, not a guy who would be 0.5 to one step slow to challenge shots or secure position down low. We have a limited sample size so far but it hasn't been pretty, and I am not hesitant to tell you what I see so far contradicts what I expected to see. I expected more.
This why you can count on the Blob. I am not out to defend my positions. I am out to seek truth, and the truth among other truths is Ben on the RISE. Papa is in holding pattern, not a bust yet, but in definitive need to justify his draft position, to give a glimmer of hope and optimism to fans who demand and expect more than a mechanical slug.
Something smells fishy. Not that I doubt the offer per se... but there must be something they see or know about MCW that makes them think he's not what everyone else thinks he is... almost too good to be true.
On the other hand... this is what being patient in the trade market gets you... other teams targeting specific pieces you have.
On the other hand... this is what being patient in the trade market gets you... other teams targeting specific pieces you have.
Well, MCW would be restricted, so we would very likely be able to keep him if we wanted him, but all the rest seems to be the case. If you are calling MCW a PG, then he falls into a similar category as Rondo...and that likely put the lie to any rumors of us being after Rubio too. And while there was assumption that having a passing SG might be part of the plan, both to run a motion offense, and to recreate Christie, early returns suggest that may not be a factor at all in what we are doing. That we are content having only so so assists from our PG, and then letting the frontline do most of the remaining handling while the SGs just provide spacing. Hence the idea of MCW taking over as a SG also does not seem to fit.
There are hazards to drawing too many early conclusions, but Vlade has shown himself a bit of a chameleon trying to get pieces according to his coaches, and there seem to be a lot of dos and don'ts to Joerger's system that we are learning as we go here. And maybe you have to begin to pay a lot of attention to Joerger's SGs in Memphis -- who didn't handle at all, and were just outlets for the frontline who would give a solid effort on the other end. Joerger's Memphis teams were perfectly content to get 7-8 total assists out of their entire starting backcourt. If that indeed is the extent of the qualifications, then guys with talent with the ball in their hands, which is often kind of the break between stars and roleplayers, may simply not be welcome here. We'd take James Harden of course, but he could completely violate what we seem to be doing. As would Dwayne Wade. Ghost of Manu/Joe Johnson. And yes, Tyreke. Our own tree of possibilities might legitimately start with Klay Thompson, then head toward JJ Reddick, then finally end up with Afflalo and the roleplayers like Lee or Danny Green. Guard your man, shoot, leave the ballhandling to your betters.
That still doesn't address the lingering concern though that in order to execute this plan we are basically intentionally turning away talent to put together an untalented but tailored to the coach roster of players. Joerger really has to make this work, and Boogie really really has to remain healthy. Because the roster isn't going to have much value to anybody but them. If you want to try to trade Rudy, a Rudy/MCW represents a pair of significant players in a deal. A Rudy/Ben pairing is almost just Rudy and a throw in.
There are hazards to drawing too many early conclusions, but Vlade has shown himself a bit of a chameleon trying to get pieces according to his coaches, and there seem to be a lot of dos and don'ts to Joerger's system that we are learning as we go here. And maybe you have to begin to pay a lot of attention to Joerger's SGs in Memphis -- who didn't handle at all, and were just outlets for the frontline who would give a solid effort on the other end. Joerger's Memphis teams were perfectly content to get 7-8 total assists out of their entire starting backcourt. If that indeed is the extent of the qualifications, then guys with talent with the ball in their hands, which is often kind of the break between stars and roleplayers, may simply not be welcome here. We'd take James Harden of course, but he could completely violate what we seem to be doing. As would Dwayne Wade. Ghost of Manu/Joe Johnson. And yes, Tyreke. Our own tree of possibilities might legitimately start with Klay Thompson, then head toward JJ Reddick, then finally end up with Afflalo and the roleplayers like Lee or Danny Green. Guard your man, shoot, leave the ballhandling to your betters.
That still doesn't address the lingering concern though that in order to execute this plan we are basically intentionally turning away talent to put together an untalented but tailored to the coach roster of players. Joerger really has to make this work, and Boogie really really has to remain healthy. Because the roster isn't going to have much value to anybody but them. If you want to try to trade Rudy, a Rudy/MCW represents a pair of significant players in a deal. A Rudy/Ben pairing is almost just Rudy and a throw in.
I am not at all sure we really want to move him. Its possible Vlade, like last year, has settled in and will just hold the line while Joerger works with what he has. certainly based on the way the offense is going, getting points out of that position could be important. The PGs aren't going to dominate the ball or shots. Having a real SG will help, but starting a low skill/pts roleplayer next to Cuz will hurt. I posted some stats on what Ewing's first year with Riley looked like, and we could be headed toward that theory. Cuz in the mid 20s, and only Rudy averaging more than 15 in support. Take that away and in a system like this it could be full on Cuz 24pts Collison 12 Afflalo 12 Omri 12 Koufos 6, with maybe 10 off the bench from Lawson
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Ben's value is as low as it will ever get. I doubt there is anything he does this season that could make his value worse, but if we are lucky, he could increase his value by playing well (let us hope). I think that's what Vlade is waiting/hoping for so that way, he could potentially pair Ben with someone else and get more out of that particular trade.
I sincerely doubt that either Joerger or Vlade would turn away talent in order to have 13 scrappy role-players on the roster. However, I do think they will be selective about which talent to sign/trade for. There are also a lot of unknowns with this entire team (chemistry, can they defend, are they willing to sacrifice for a teammate) that they are taking a wait and see approach. I suspect the more games we play, the easier it will be to identify our major weaknesses, though I still think we lack a real #2 option.
Just look at the Grizzlies under Joerger, they had a significant amount of talent in Conley, Z-Bo, and Gasol and later added a bunch of mid-level role-players. Even last year when Joerger had no one of significance playing due to injuries, he adjusted a lot of his offense on the fly. IIRC, they also had Lance creating for them with solid results, even in the playoffs. Joerger isn't afraid to shake things up, but the absolute one thing that the organization wanted to change immediately was the culture, so they made sure to sign only vets with good histories and good work ethics and hope it brushes off on everyone else.
Even if you are correct Brick, the Grizzlies under Joerger went to the Western Conference Finals and put a scare into the Warriors (should have won, but they couldn't shoot to save their lives) while also being in the playoffs essentially every year that he has been there. That's a lot more than the Kings can say in the same time span.
Just look at the Grizzlies under Joerger, they had a significant amount of talent in Conley, Z-Bo, and Gasol and later added a bunch of mid-level role-players. Even last year when Joerger had no one of significance playing due to injuries, he adjusted a lot of his offense on the fly. IIRC, they also had Lance creating for them with solid results, even in the playoffs. Joerger isn't afraid to shake things up, but the absolute one thing that the organization wanted to change immediately was the culture, so they made sure to sign only vets with good histories and good work ethics and hope it brushes off on everyone else.
Even if you are correct Brick, the Grizzlies under Joerger went to the Western Conference Finals and put a scare into the Warriors (should have won, but they couldn't shoot to save their lives) while also being in the playoffs essentially every year that he has been there. That's a lot more than the Kings can say in the same time span.
ROY?
In any case... I say we hold. I want to see what Ben can do in a structured offense. I still see high level role player potential. Especially after what is reported to be a very hard working offseason (we all saw the vid).
To me it's not worth the risk of losing out on a potential very good role player. His ceiling is higher than MCW. MCW type players are actually fairly easy to get. MCW got ROY for being the greatest player on team on epic, half decade tank mode.
We STILL haven't had a functional team in about a decade. Certain stars can do good in that environment (see Cuz), but the guys like McLemore, WCS... they need, get this, a healthy environment to thrive. Shocking right?
Functionality is on the horizon and approaching fast, and it's going to seem like the Resurrection.
A good example is the Giants (baseball). Great, and underrated farm system. Guys like Gillaspie, Blach, Panik, Strickland, even Crawford... those are all guys that needed that farm system and a great team culture to thrive and grow. Posey is the exception. You can't win without being able to nurture homegrown talent. See: Spurs.
In any case... I say we hold. I want to see what Ben can do in a structured offense. I still see high level role player potential. Especially after what is reported to be a very hard working offseason (we all saw the vid).
To me it's not worth the risk of losing out on a potential very good role player. His ceiling is higher than MCW. MCW type players are actually fairly easy to get. MCW got ROY for being the greatest player on team on epic, half decade tank mode.
We STILL haven't had a functional team in about a decade. Certain stars can do good in that environment (see Cuz), but the guys like McLemore, WCS... they need, get this, a healthy environment to thrive. Shocking right?
Functionality is on the horizon and approaching fast, and it's going to seem like the Resurrection.
A good example is the Giants (baseball). Great, and underrated farm system. Guys like Gillaspie, Blach, Panik, Strickland, even Crawford... those are all guys that needed that farm system and a great team culture to thrive and grow. Posey is the exception. You can't win without being able to nurture homegrown talent. See: Spurs.
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This is true. And that is the hope. Elite contending teams do this all the time -- San Antonio doesn't pick up random talent. It picks up scrubs and aging vets that "fit". You get a coach, a system, and you pick pieces that fit that coach/system and gain a bunch of wins out of synergy. Move the same roster to a different city, under a different coach with a different system, start slapping on talented random players, and it badly underperforms.
Which is why I say this has to work. Its been my hope since this summer when I saw the sort of roleplayers we were after in free agency. Its why I think expecting a .500+ year is entirely reasonable. We are the sort of team that ignorant national types who aren't paying attention could easily underestimate, because its not there on paper. Its not there on talent. Half our players are scrubs. Ben included btw. But the winning will come the same way many of Duncan's early teams won, or Ewing's teams won. Synergy. Coach-star-roleplayers, all on one system, with no competing agendas or egos. That's one advantage of having little talent -- fewer egos. And as the contending teams often demonstrate, as the Joerger Grizzlies themselves demonstrated, that can absolutely work. You can gain more from coach/system/star/roleplayer synergy than you ever can from random stacks of talent.
BUT, the question very much remains if this roster is ready for that yet. If we have enough base talent to be able to curl into a roleplayer centric hole. Because we're largely just still Cuz and the Cuzateers. Now they are welcome to try...or scratch that, they are welcome to SUCCEED with what they are doing. I know history well enough to know it can happen, and bring it on. Shut the naysayers the hell up. But this roster...if its not ready for that treatment, and if we turn down opportunities to turn crap assets into more talented ones, then we are going to be really screwed. If we can't win the undertalented way, we aren't going to have the pieces to get better players into town, and Vlade will be left next summer again trying to make the Kings in free agency thing work, which it just doesn't without a bunch of wins to back it.
Which is why I say this has to work. Its been my hope since this summer when I saw the sort of roleplayers we were after in free agency. Its why I think expecting a .500+ year is entirely reasonable. We are the sort of team that ignorant national types who aren't paying attention could easily underestimate, because its not there on paper. Its not there on talent. Half our players are scrubs. Ben included btw. But the winning will come the same way many of Duncan's early teams won, or Ewing's teams won. Synergy. Coach-star-roleplayers, all on one system, with no competing agendas or egos. That's one advantage of having little talent -- fewer egos. And as the contending teams often demonstrate, as the Joerger Grizzlies themselves demonstrated, that can absolutely work. You can gain more from coach/system/star/roleplayer synergy than you ever can from random stacks of talent.
BUT, the question very much remains if this roster is ready for that yet. If we have enough base talent to be able to curl into a roleplayer centric hole. Because we're largely just still Cuz and the Cuzateers. Now they are welcome to try...or scratch that, they are welcome to SUCCEED with what they are doing. I know history well enough to know it can happen, and bring it on. Shut the naysayers the hell up. But this roster...if its not ready for that treatment, and if we turn down opportunities to turn crap assets into more talented ones, then we are going to be really screwed. If we can't win the undertalented way, we aren't going to have the pieces to get better players into town, and Vlade will be left next summer again trying to make the Kings in free agency thing work, which it just doesn't without a bunch of wins to back it.
All fair points, but I don't share the same fear as you do, at least not to that extent. Vlade did go after a higher tier of talent in this year's free agency (Ryno, Lee), but failed to lure them here. It might not be the Durant type level of talent, but we never have a prayer of getting those anyway. This past year's free agency class was somewhat weak in the positions we needed most (especially since most of the big names were never an option for us) and rather than significantly overpay for a player that was only slightly more talented than the next tier down, we saved money by going with the less talented option until we saw how things worked out. Thus the 1 year deals with a team/player option or extremely team friendly deals.
At this point no one knows how this will work, even the front office. It's all in the hands of Joerger and in all honesty, Cousins. This is his prime time opportunity to shine in an area other than stats -- leadership. Can he stop getting in his own way so he can show and help others? By this I mean the "on the court" stuff that we are all familiar with. He has his coach (one that he respects) and he probably has the best or 2nd best roster he's ever had while in the NBA, which I know is not saying much. I think Vlade is content to see how this goes and is probably expecting losses in the beginning of the season, but by December, we should be hitting a good stride as a team (hopefully) and I am sure he plans on plugging as many holes as he can through trades.
It's no coincidence we went after the players we did; you have said the same thing repeatedly and I agree. We brought players in that are respected, that have a good history, and are tough and we did that in order to change the culture of the team to a defensive one. We may not have went for the hail mary touchdown, but we did go for the first down and I think we got it. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised and I think Cousins is going to take it one step further this season and finally lead the team to a respectable level.
At this point no one knows how this will work, even the front office. It's all in the hands of Joerger and in all honesty, Cousins. This is his prime time opportunity to shine in an area other than stats -- leadership. Can he stop getting in his own way so he can show and help others? By this I mean the "on the court" stuff that we are all familiar with. He has his coach (one that he respects) and he probably has the best or 2nd best roster he's ever had while in the NBA, which I know is not saying much. I think Vlade is content to see how this goes and is probably expecting losses in the beginning of the season, but by December, we should be hitting a good stride as a team (hopefully) and I am sure he plans on plugging as many holes as he can through trades.
It's no coincidence we went after the players we did; you have said the same thing repeatedly and I agree. We brought players in that are respected, that have a good history, and are tough and we did that in order to change the culture of the team to a defensive one. We may not have went for the hail mary touchdown, but we did go for the first down and I think we got it. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised and I think Cousins is going to take it one step further this season and finally lead the team to a respectable level.
I would have done this in a second, especially with hoe volatile our pg depth is right now and mcw is a far more polished player than Ben. hes not the ROY type talent that people thought hed be, but hes still a good player who can do a lot of things. Also, kidd is a horrible coach who has totally messed up his development.
I dont get why we are ao against upgrading our pg spot. Probably have the worst rotation in the league right now.
I dont get why we are ao against upgrading our pg spot. Probably have the worst rotation in the league right now.
If Lawson is what he was, we actually are top half.
But I think the larger answer lies in the emerging realization that our offense is not PG centric at all. Neither as scorers, nro creaters Certainly not as anyone who dominates the ball, or can't shoot. While its not nearly so extreme, it may be a bit like wondering why Phil Jackson never upgraded his PGs. Just in his sytem Stockton or Kidd or Payton would have been totally wasted.
But I think the larger answer lies in the emerging realization that our offense is not PG centric at all. Neither as scorers, nro creaters Certainly not as anyone who dominates the ball, or can't shoot. While its not nearly so extreme, it may be a bit like wondering why Phil Jackson never upgraded his PGs. Just in his sytem Stockton or Kidd or Payton would have been totally wasted.
While I agree his value isn't high, if you poke around on other forums, like Cavs forum for example, it's surprising to see that fans (not necessarily front office folks) have significant interest in Ben. I think a lot of people still think he has the same potential he had coming out of college, and I believe the sense around fans is that his shortcomings are probably b/c Sac never properly developed him, with multiple coaches and front office folks coming in and out. I think we know whats up better than other fans, considering that we've watched him fail to take any steps forward despite having many opportunities, but he might still be a coveted piece that might fetch us SOMETHING of value in return. I for one will not be surprised if he's a part of a solid trade at some point next season, but i'm not ready to trade the kid for peanuts.
That's the beauty of it, we don't have to trade him right away. Even 3 more months of his "usual" self during the season won't really hurt Ben's value, BUT if he all of a sudden starts to piece things together (by some miracle) then we can use him to fetch a bigger/better haul our way. I think, either way, his career with the Kings is probably going to come to a close, barring a sudden understanding of basketball from Ben.
Looks like the Bulls are trying to trade Tony Snell for MCW.
Remember when people were upset that Malone didn't get his defensive guy in Tony Snell? Instead, we got McLemore? As bad as McLemore's career has been, Snell is a lot worse..
He's like the 6'7 SF version of McLemore who's a worse shooter, has lower bball IQ, worse handles, worse confidence, and just as bad of a rebounder.
Think about it. Snell actually had a good coaching staff and FO surrounding him. For his first 2 years he played under a great defensive minded coach in Thibbs. He could not do anything.
Interesting that MCW's value has gone this far down...... damn.
Remember when people were upset that Malone didn't get his defensive guy in Tony Snell? Instead, we got McLemore? As bad as McLemore's career has been, Snell is a lot worse..
He's like the 6'7 SF version of McLemore who's a worse shooter, has lower bball IQ, worse handles, worse confidence, and just as bad of a rebounder.
Think about it. Snell actually had a good coaching staff and FO surrounding him. For his first 2 years he played under a great defensive minded coach in Thibbs. He could not do anything.
Interesting that MCW's value has gone this far down...... damn.
From watching the Bulls last year....Snell is as good of a defender as McLemore. There are games where he flashes defensive competence, but others where he looks lost. Snell is turning 25 this year. McLemore is 23. I feel like it's an easy choice to rather stick with McLemore. Bulls fans are extremely surprised they could even get an asset for Snell. Kings fans are in the stage where a 2nd round pick is guaranteed for us.
Wow. MCW traded for Tony Snell.........................
Talk about peaking in your first 5 games!!!!
Snell is so bad..... he's really bad............ maybe he ends up as a solid 3&D player down the road...but right now, he's bad...
The game has no room for ball dominant PGs who can't shoot. A gigantic shift. MCW was just traded for literally nothing..
Talk about peaking in your first 5 games!!!!
Snell is so bad..... he's really bad............ maybe he ends up as a solid 3&D player down the road...but right now, he's bad...
The game has no room for ball dominant PGs who can't shoot. A gigantic shift. MCW was just traded for literally nothing..
