Bucks offering MCW for Ben Mclemore
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Honestly I'd rather have Temple than Carter-Williams. Much less ball dominant, better defender, better shooter and a role player who plays within himself. And as a bonus he's reportedly a great locker room presence. If the Kings chemistry is much improved this season I'll be looking at the Tolliver and Temple signings as a big reason why.
Carter-Williams still has talent and could ideally one day be a Shaun Livingston type player but (1) he's not there yet and (2) his terrible outside shooting would be a poor fit for this Kings team as constructed.
Carter-Williams still has talent and could ideally one day be a Shaun Livingston type player but (1) he's not there yet and (2) his terrible outside shooting would be a poor fit for this Kings team as constructed.
I could see why the Kings would say no.
Maybe they don't like MCW as both a short-term and long-term option. Short term, we already have DC and Lawson. MCW adds his own dynamic as a better defender, but you lose a lot on offense. He's a nice playmaker(not great), but can be prone to turnovers way too often. His shooting is definitely the worst part of his game. Long-term, he doesn't fit anywhere near Cousins.
The Kings might have some type of confidence in McLemore. Or at least, more confidence in McLemore becoming a solid 3&D player rather than MCW learning to shoot. MCW is currently better than McLemore, but he's just all types of horrible for scheme and personnel fit.
I could also see why the Kings should say yes.
I don't even know if Ben is in the Kings' long-term plans. We drafted Richardson, and traded for Bogdanovic. Will we even extend his QO? Will we even try to retain him? Will we even match any offers for him? Do the Kings even see him as part of our future? If the answers to any one of these Qs is no, then we should definitely just trade him. Our current team has enough depth at SG as it currently stands. Afflalo and Temple, with Casspi and Barnes who can play stints at SG. Not to mention Richardson who will probably be in the DL though.
If these reports are true, at the very least, we know that Vlade and the coaching staff do have some type of confidence in Ben.
Maybe they don't like MCW as both a short-term and long-term option. Short term, we already have DC and Lawson. MCW adds his own dynamic as a better defender, but you lose a lot on offense. He's a nice playmaker(not great), but can be prone to turnovers way too often. His shooting is definitely the worst part of his game. Long-term, he doesn't fit anywhere near Cousins.
The Kings might have some type of confidence in McLemore. Or at least, more confidence in McLemore becoming a solid 3&D player rather than MCW learning to shoot. MCW is currently better than McLemore, but he's just all types of horrible for scheme and personnel fit.
I could also see why the Kings should say yes.
I don't even know if Ben is in the Kings' long-term plans. We drafted Richardson, and traded for Bogdanovic. Will we even extend his QO? Will we even try to retain him? Will we even match any offers for him? Do the Kings even see him as part of our future? If the answers to any one of these Qs is no, then we should definitely just trade him. Our current team has enough depth at SG as it currently stands. Afflalo and Temple, with Casspi and Barnes who can play stints at SG. Not to mention Richardson who will probably be in the DL though.
If these reports are true, at the very least, we know that Vlade and the coaching staff do have some type of confidence in Ben.
I think it comes down to already having Lawson as the waterbug, scoring/playmaking backup PG and Temple as the big, defensive, shooting/glue guy backup PG. There's no need for MCW. And so Ben is free to battle it out with Temple and Richardson for backup SG minutes. If he wins out and develops, awesome. A piece that fits that might not be too tough to re-sign if they want. If he doesn't, then he's gone anyway.
MCW is not a great short term or long term fit so I think he's definitely gone at the end of the year. At least Ben offers a small chance of still developing into a useful piece.
MCW is not a great short term or long term fit so I think he's definitely gone at the end of the year. At least Ben offers a small chance of still developing into a useful piece.
MCW fits nothing for us. While he might be a slight talent upgrade overall, we would be in the same boat as Ben where unless he took a huge leap he is not going to be a piece moving forward. That trade doesn't make any sense for us.
EDIT: Both will need a QO this year or become RFA. I don't think either of them will get their QO amount for 3-4 years, so they will either come to terms with the team that holds them or hit the open market.
EDIT: Both will need a QO this year or become RFA. I don't think either of them will get their QO amount for 3-4 years, so they will either come to terms with the team that holds them or hit the open market.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...r-Of-Michael-Carter-Williams-For-Ben-McLemore
I'm glad they rejected it. Not because I think McLemore is worth a lot more. I just don't want Michael Carter Williams anywhere near this team. He's not a very good player and if you read about him from the Bucks writers, he's not really a consistent defender either.
I'm glad they rejected it. Not because I think McLemore is worth a lot more. I just don't want Michael Carter Williams anywhere near this team. He's not a very good player and if you read about him from the Bucks writers, he's not really a consistent defender either.
But I don't think we can get anything that does "make sense" for Ben and I think it's a pretty good get.
It's hard to argue that Ben is the better player now and I think that MCW is also better in terms of upside (his defense his over-rated right now since he gambles a lot, but the potential is there).
He doesn't fill a need in this roster, but what need does Ben fill?
We have AA starting at SG, Temple can be a good backup there, we just drafted Richardson and Bogdanovic is probavly coming next year- we can handle losing Ben without acquiring another SG.
I would take a chance on him personally.
It's hard to argue that Ben is the better player now and I think that MCW is also better in terms of upside (his defense his over-rated right now since he gambles a lot, but the potential is there).
He doesn't fill a need in this roster, but what need does Ben fill?
We have AA starting at SG, Temple can be a good backup there, we just drafted Richardson and Bogdanovic is probavly coming next year- we can handle losing Ben without acquiring another SG.
I would take a chance on him personally.
I can understand a fit issue, and maybe it trumped.
On the other hand over the years I think we have passed up on acquiring a lot of talented players for Ben, and he has rewarded us with nothing at all. In fact really as much as people like to say oh poor Ben has had so much inconsistency (hint: so has everybody else yet the good ones are productive anyway), I think you could argue that the inconsistency has really been Ben's savior, at least vis a vis Sacramento.. If we had had stability, one coach, one front office, one system, and a player continued to show nothing year after year, he would have been dumped. Its only because every year its a new coach and new system that each one of them says "wow! look at the shooting form! wow...look at the hops!" and we go through the same thing again.
So maybe MCW is not a great fit, but then again, he's big enough to play some SG (bigger than Ben actually), has defensive potential, and both our PGs are free agents after this season. And this might be the last best chance you have to salvage some value from the Ben pick. If you don't like MCW, give Detroit a call about a three way deal and see what they say. They are rumored to be in the PG market after losing Reggie Jackson. But then again, maybe we have already done that.
On the other hand over the years I think we have passed up on acquiring a lot of talented players for Ben, and he has rewarded us with nothing at all. In fact really as much as people like to say oh poor Ben has had so much inconsistency (hint: so has everybody else yet the good ones are productive anyway), I think you could argue that the inconsistency has really been Ben's savior, at least vis a vis Sacramento.. If we had had stability, one coach, one front office, one system, and a player continued to show nothing year after year, he would have been dumped. Its only because every year its a new coach and new system that each one of them says "wow! look at the shooting form! wow...look at the hops!" and we go through the same thing again.
So maybe MCW is not a great fit, but then again, he's big enough to play some SG (bigger than Ben actually), has defensive potential, and both our PGs are free agents after this season. And this might be the last best chance you have to salvage some value from the Ben pick. If you don't like MCW, give Detroit a call about a three way deal and see what they say. They are rumored to be in the PG market after losing Reggie Jackson. But then again, maybe we have already done that.
Hey if we don't want MCW, maybe the Bucks want to make a trade for Ben using Greg Monroe?
Can't do it until December but how about Ben+Tolliver+Papa for Greg? Works on realgm http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6721403
Edit: I think this is lop-sided in our favor, but reports are that Charlotte rejected a Monroe for Jeremy Lam and Soggy Waffles trade. So, who knows? Maybe the market is really bad for Monroe.
Wouldn't mind starting a tandem of Greg and DMC.
Can't do it until December but how about Ben+Tolliver+Papa for Greg? Works on realgm http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6721403
Edit: I think this is lop-sided in our favor, but reports are that Charlotte rejected a Monroe for Jeremy Lam and Soggy Waffles trade. So, who knows? Maybe the market is really bad for Monroe.
Wouldn't mind starting a tandem of Greg and DMC.
To be fair to Ben, he was 20/21 when he came into the league. Throughout his first 3 years, there's been turmoil and dysfunction up high, and down to the coaching staff. I think it's the consensus that Ben was a raw prospect coming into the season. It's really hard for a younger, especially mentally fragile player to do well in this situation. Not all of it is on the Kings, but a lot of it is. The only players who's been able to succeed through all this adversity is Cousins and IT. With Cousins, he's a superstar. Only superstar 19/20yearolds would be able to come in and turn out great. With IT, he was already 23 and was a lot more mature than your average rookie.
Ben hasn't shown us much in his first 3 years. He's taunted us with his potential, but has never put it together. You have to give him some slack for the Kings' own instability all around.
In regards to MCW, both him and McLemore expire this year. Maybe they feel like they're more probable in extending a player like McLemore (3&D??) than a non-shooting PG like MCW. MCW adds a lot of problems to the team. More on offense than defense. If Cousins remains a long-term plan, I'd feel a lot better going forward with DC for 2-3 more years than MCW for the next 4.
I actually really like this PG FA class. Realistic targets:
George Hill
Jrue Holiday
Jeff Teague??
Patty Mills
Shelvin Mack
Shaun Livingston
Darren Collison
Ben hasn't shown us much in his first 3 years. He's taunted us with his potential, but has never put it together. You have to give him some slack for the Kings' own instability all around.
In regards to MCW, both him and McLemore expire this year. Maybe they feel like they're more probable in extending a player like McLemore (3&D??) than a non-shooting PG like MCW. MCW adds a lot of problems to the team. More on offense than defense. If Cousins remains a long-term plan, I'd feel a lot better going forward with DC for 2-3 more years than MCW for the next 4.
I actually really like this PG FA class. Realistic targets:
George Hill
Jrue Holiday
Jeff Teague??
Patty Mills
Shelvin Mack
Shaun Livingston
Darren Collison
What's the use of MCW here when the Kings have Collison & Lawson...albeit on short contracts. With that being said, as awful as Ben has been, I'm glad the Kings passed this one up. I'd like to see Ben get one last shot, and with a legit head coach to see if he has anything to offer. I'm willing to be patient with Ben this last time.
Ben is hardly a world beater, but we already know what MCW is. He is (was) an early bloomer and frequent bricklayer. Ben may be a late bloomer at 23 years old. And this is because his physical and emotional immaturity when he entered the league was behind the curve AND his work ethic to improve his strength and skill set was prevalent amidst prolonged struggle and sub-10 PER. This is what Vlade saw when he picked up to QO a year ago.
Keep hope alive! Or see the thread, Don't Give Up on B-Mac Yet...by yours truly, the prophetic Kings Fan you can trust where others will mislead and distort and confuse. There are a lot of takes on this board that are pure guesswork and backward rationalizations. Then there is me
Regardless let's clarify because there are lot of wishy washy on-the-fence takes amongst my brethren, fans who are back-and-forth and out to lunch and in need of guidance.
This is the deal:
Ben has a chance with a new and supportive coaching staff, his newfound strength combined with agility and athleticism to be a physical and defensive presence and 40% three-ball marksman where in past he was swallowed whole by an unforgiving league with whom he was unprepared to contend. It has took longer than expected, but better late than never!
Players develop at their own rate, and Ben will benefit from a coach who does not declare before the season that it is in jeopardy before it begins, and that he will not play the minutes he played the previous season. Thanks George! Instead of an anti-vote of confidence, Ben will get a vote of confidence from Coach Joerger, and when your confidence is fragile, this is much appreciated.
Then, there is this: MCW is a 47.7% TS shooter over his three seasons. Nuff said. This is Rubio level bad. His shot is broke. He compiled numbers on a terrible team with unearned usage and MPG. He has length and handles but he turns it over too willingly and has been on the trading block after being traded once. The intangible qualities are not there to merit retention and front office faith. The Bucks are a team that found a diamond in the rough in Giannis. Now they have their sights set on B-Mac. If you don't believe your own eyes, consider the prudence of their eyes!
I said previously 50/50 were the odds Ben would be a rotational player based on Joerger's feedback and team philosophy. Those odds need to be upped to 90/10 in favor of Ben getting run. I like the idea of Ben and Barnes in the second unit creating havoc and schooling opposing second unit. Ben is an athlete. He is the Gerald Wallace of this generation with a smooth three point stroke. His handles and passing are not going to impress you but within high post offense, impressiveness to this degree is unnecessary.
Ben is ready to make his mark, to survive and thrive and command minutes and have his best season ever. Its more likely than not. Let's play the odds. Let's roll. No thanks, Bucks. We're good. Keep your bricklayer. We'll roll on without his bricks and take our chances with an asset overdue to pay dividends. Time to shine, B-Mac.
Keep hope alive! Or see the thread, Don't Give Up on B-Mac Yet...by yours truly, the prophetic Kings Fan you can trust where others will mislead and distort and confuse. There are a lot of takes on this board that are pure guesswork and backward rationalizations. Then there is me
Regardless let's clarify because there are lot of wishy washy on-the-fence takes amongst my brethren, fans who are back-and-forth and out to lunch and in need of guidance.This is the deal:
Ben has a chance with a new and supportive coaching staff, his newfound strength combined with agility and athleticism to be a physical and defensive presence and 40% three-ball marksman where in past he was swallowed whole by an unforgiving league with whom he was unprepared to contend. It has took longer than expected, but better late than never!
Players develop at their own rate, and Ben will benefit from a coach who does not declare before the season that it is in jeopardy before it begins, and that he will not play the minutes he played the previous season. Thanks George! Instead of an anti-vote of confidence, Ben will get a vote of confidence from Coach Joerger, and when your confidence is fragile, this is much appreciated.
Then, there is this: MCW is a 47.7% TS shooter over his three seasons. Nuff said. This is Rubio level bad. His shot is broke. He compiled numbers on a terrible team with unearned usage and MPG. He has length and handles but he turns it over too willingly and has been on the trading block after being traded once. The intangible qualities are not there to merit retention and front office faith. The Bucks are a team that found a diamond in the rough in Giannis. Now they have their sights set on B-Mac. If you don't believe your own eyes, consider the prudence of their eyes!
I said previously 50/50 were the odds Ben would be a rotational player based on Joerger's feedback and team philosophy. Those odds need to be upped to 90/10 in favor of Ben getting run. I like the idea of Ben and Barnes in the second unit creating havoc and schooling opposing second unit. Ben is an athlete. He is the Gerald Wallace of this generation with a smooth three point stroke. His handles and passing are not going to impress you but within high post offense, impressiveness to this degree is unnecessary.
Ben is ready to make his mark, to survive and thrive and command minutes and have his best season ever. Its more likely than not. Let's play the odds. Let's roll. No thanks, Bucks. We're good. Keep your bricklayer. We'll roll on without his bricks and take our chances with an asset overdue to pay dividends. Time to shine, B-Mac.
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What does the presidential election have to do with trading Ben? But look, correct me if I misinterpreted, but you already declared Ben OUT of the rotation, so why does FIT become relevant if you have already declared Ben to be an ill-fit AND irrelevant? Reports of his demise are premature. The bottom line is this: Ben has a chance to become a player in a contract year, and risk vs. reward amounts to a chance worth taking from an organizational standpoint. The Bucks know this and so do we. End. Period. No trade. Play ball.
But look, correct me if I misinterpreted, but you already declared Ben OUT of the rotation, so why does FIT become relevant if you have already declared Ben to be an ill-fit AND irrelevant? Reports of his demise are premature. The bottom line is this: Ben has a chance to become a player in a contract year, and risk vs. reward amounts to a chance worth taking from an organizational standpoint. The Bucks know this and so do we. End. Period. No trade. Play ball.
The defender is MCW.
The shooter part though may be paramount, especially when you consider we were after a mediocrity like Courtney Lee for the job. Not much spacing from our big frontline or PGs (unless Farmar makes it). Not Rudy's thing either. So there may be a defacto litmus test that everybody else has to space above all else.
The shooter part though may be paramount, especially when you consider we were after a mediocrity like Courtney Lee for the job. Not much spacing from our big frontline or PGs (unless Farmar makes it). Not Rudy's thing either. So there may be a defacto litmus test that everybody else has to space above all else.
There's a reason why MCW won rookie of the year. He's got some talent and he was on a completely awful Sixers team where someone had to put up stats.
And there's also a reason that he was dealt to Milwaukee and was back on the trading block just a few months later.
Carter-Williams is a good passer, defender and rebounder with very good size for a PG but he isn't an elite playmaker or penetrator and is an awful shooter.
What he does well just doesn't balance out with how his busted shot disrupts offensive spacing or the fact that for MCW to be effective you have to put the ball in his hands.
In short he's a poor fit for what Joerger wants to do just like Rondo was. Carter-Williams is significantly better on defense than Rajon but he doesn't have Rondo's ridiculous hoops IQ or otherworldly passing/vision.
Either way it's hard to make a case for him on the Kings when Collison and Temple are better fits and Lawson is a better wildcard to gamble on.
And of course MCW is also a FA after this season so it doesn't fix the fact that Temple is the only guy on the roster that can play some point and is under contract after this season.
And there's also a reason that he was dealt to Milwaukee and was back on the trading block just a few months later.
Carter-Williams is a good passer, defender and rebounder with very good size for a PG but he isn't an elite playmaker or penetrator and is an awful shooter.
What he does well just doesn't balance out with how his busted shot disrupts offensive spacing or the fact that for MCW to be effective you have to put the ball in his hands.
In short he's a poor fit for what Joerger wants to do just like Rondo was. Carter-Williams is significantly better on defense than Rajon but he doesn't have Rondo's ridiculous hoops IQ or otherworldly passing/vision.
Either way it's hard to make a case for him on the Kings when Collison and Temple are better fits and Lawson is a better wildcard to gamble on.
And of course MCW is also a FA after this season so it doesn't fix the fact that Temple is the only guy on the roster that can play some point and is under contract after this season.