Breton: Kings in trouble before Martin's return

[6th]

houston without yao and denver without melo...and that hornets game, they played without CP3. the thing is half the people here dont look that deep into it, someone posts something and others blindly follow. they just want to blame somebody even if theres reasoning why someone shouldnt be blamed. i just wish i was on the forum before adelman got fired, to see if it's the same people with the torches and pitchforks

Of those who were on the forum then, yes, that's pretty much it. I call it the impatient, quick fix, crowd.

 

[bajaden]

First off, I wonder what people expected when the season started? There were predictions from the same 17 games all the way up to winning 40 games by some real optimistic fans. I think I predicted somewhere around 32 or 33 wins. It seemed reasonable to me. So lets say its 32. That means were still going to lose 50 games. So are we going to go through this hand wringing, fire the coach, fire the GM, trade Martin, bench Thompson and Hawes, and start Beno everytime we lose a game.

Isn't this what we expected? If we end up winning 32 games, shouldn't we be happy about it? I guess not! I guess were supossed to go from 17 wins to the conference championships in one season. I know its not easy. The team teases us with close games and a competitivness that surprises us. It apparently surprised a lot of other teams as well. Thus we snuck up on the league. Were sneaking up on no one now. Portland did this to a greater extent a couple of yeas ago when the got off to a great start and looked like a lock for the playoffs. But when the league started taking them serious it got a lot harder for them and they fell off at the end.

But back to the Martin thing. There is a problem there. I don't know what it is, but Martin doesn't look like the Martin I remember, and the team doesn't look like the team that was playing before Martin returned. Even Tyreke has made a couple of tactfull statements along the lines of, " I'm not sure where Martin is right now." Something isn't jelling. I don't know why. Martin looks uncomfortable out there, and seems to be trying to prove he can play without the ball and that he's a good passer. All well and good, but he also needs to be the proficient scorer that we remember. I don't know if this is going to work. I stated before that I like Martin, but that my gut tells me it won't work.

I certainly wouldn't trade Martin just to trade him. But if the right deal comes along, then you do the deal. If it doesn't, then you wait till the offseason and see what you can do then. Nocioni I would trade for a bag of chips and a years supply of toilet paper. Just kidding, just kidding. Maybe two years supply..

 

[Smills91]

I am certainly not intimidated by Marcus Breton's basketball acumen, or lack thereof. And even those cherry picked quotes are easy to counter 1) Spencer has been a wuss all year, yet we won despite his wussiness for a while 2) Jason hasn't had control of his emotions since we got him yet we won depsite it for a while 3) guys missing their shots started right about the time that Kevin came back and disrutped the minutes/rotations/roles.

I thnk we were downward trending at the point Kevin returned, and it was absolutely the worst time for it. A young team needing to be focused, to regather and go out and try to correct the road thing, was suddenly hit by a giant monkey wrench and seems to have collapsed in confusion. Furthermore as the ranking vet, I think it make sit hard for the kids to reclaim the team and provide leadership. If Kevin were a vocal guy, or a guy wiht a history of winning to give him legitimacy, he might be able to step in as leader. But he's not, and the team seems to have one eye on reke, one on Kevin, waiting for a cue.

We won? Really? We hit .500 once or twice I believe. Have we ever been over .500 for more than a couple days the past two years?

The man has a point. We're just not that good yet, the future is definitely bright, but the here and now is NOT Martin's fault. It has more to do with schedule and the fact that our young players aren't performing the same way they did earlier in the season(I call that rookie wall, i.e. Omri Casspi) and to a certain extent both Thompson and Hawes have been off and on all season long, and right now they're OFF.

We're not winning or losing because of Martin, because as of right now, this is a TEAM that wins and loses TOGETHER, not because of any one individual.

 

[Smills91]

do u know what else started right when martin came back? our longest road trip. against philly who was .500 in their last 10 games, wash who we barely beat at home, a bobcats team who won 7 of their last 8 before us and were like 18-4 at home (including wins over the cavs, rockets, spurs and suns), atlanta and orlando, u know, the top 2 teams in the southeast conference, one of which is the defending eastern conf champs?

THIS. This is why you can NEVER judge off a 10 game sample size, EVER! Let the law of averages settle out the highs and lows before basing your judgements.

 

[Smills91]

I keep on seeing inferences to Hawes and this supposed lack of work ethic, and I don't know where it's coming from.

His play has been beyond disappointing this year, and I think fans want to point to work-ethic as a reason for it. The problem is that everything coming out of the Kings organization seems to say the opposite. That he's working hard to try to improve himself and his game.

Let's face it. His primary issue in regards to being the type of player we want him to be is his strength. If everyone knows this, then it that is the focus the organization is taking with his development.
I also want to mention that I recall it being discussed that the organization did not want him to add weight. They wanted to him him at a lighter weight while still working to gain the strength needed to work the post. So pointing to pictures as to how his body looks isn't going to do anything if the focus of his training is to gain strength while keeping his weight down.

Finally, Hawes had to sit behind Miller for a year-and-a-half. When Miller left, Hawes had a great end to his 2nd season. Knowing that this was to be the year that he'd fully establish himself as a legitimate starting Center his priority would have been to work to make that a reality. He's a very fiery competitor, so I just don't see where he has any incentive to just stop working.

Again, his play has not been good at all. But I just don't see his work ethic as being the problem here.

Actually, I agree and disagree with you here. Perception is NOT reality in Hawes case. Everyone wants him to be the "Dwight Howard" type center for the Kings and he's simply just not that player. His play has been down, definitely, but his production isn't even that far off from last year. The BIGGEST difference is there is no legit alternative to back Hawes up AND I think his role with Westphal is still a bit undefined or at least not completely grasped yet. It's interesting to me in the handful of games that Evans has missed, that Hawes, iirc, has has very good games those game.

I don't know if Hawes and Evans are the complementary pieces that we need at the 1/5, at least not yet. Both players are under 22 years old, so I'd error on the side of caution before dealing them. You look like an a$$ moving such young and talented players prematurely.

We're taking our lumps now, so we don't have to later.

 

[Smills91]

Bingo !

I absolutely agree with this one.

Kevin Martin's lack of passion in his game is infectious!

I think we have to trade him ASAP before the whole team gets infected. It scares me to think that one of the best players and leader of the team may end up unintentionally leading the team to playing without passion. Since he got back, the team had slowly reverted back to playing without fire in their eyes. On the last game, the never-quit attitude of the team was gone.

PLEASE? Are you serious? Do you know anything about the game of basketball, Kevin Martin or the Kings organization? You can't be serious. Tell me that you're being sarcastic here.

Passion and work ethic are nearly synonymous with K$. He wouldn't work so hard in the off-season if he wasn't passionate. He would have slacked once he earned his 'contract'. Your statement is so factually off-base and ignorant I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day to correct you. But, I guess I can count that as my compassionate service for the day. Informing the misinformed.

Kevin Martin is easily one of the most passionate basketball players IN THE LEAGUE. The fact that he's not demonstrative on the court, doesn't mean he's not passionate.

 

[Bricklayer]

PLEASE? Are you serious? Do you know anything about the game of basketball, Kevin Martin or the Kings organization? You can't be serious. Tell me that you're being sarcastic here.

Passion and work ethic are nearly synonymous with K$. He wouldn't work so hard in the off-season if he wasn't passionate. He would have slacked once he earned his 'contract'. Your statement is so factually off-base and ignorant I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day to correct you. But, I guess I can count that as my compassionate service for the day. Informing the misinformed.

Kevin Martin is easily one of the most passionate basketball players IN THE LEAGUE. The fact that he's not demonstrative on the court, doesn't mean he's not passionate.

It doesn't take a genious to figure out that he is talking about a whiole different thing -- passion, enthusiasm ON the court. Not hard work or professionalism off of it. Kevin has been like substituting a golf crowd at a football game. Both types of fans may have "passion" for their games, but one would suck the life right out of a stadium.

 

[pshn80]

We really don't have a new problem. We have been losing easily for some time. It hasn't changed with Martin's return. Our guys, as good as they appear they can be, are not ready for prime time. Substitute Kobe for Martin right now and we would be losing. We just don't have enough experienced talent to consistently be in games. Like many have said we caught the league napping several times at the beginning of the season but they now have a better idea of how to play us. Hawes and Thompson have shown flashes of talent but more flashes of sorry a** play. Guys that have played most of the SF minutes, especially the young guys, Donte and Omri, are unfortunately much like Hawes and Thompson - flashes of talent, scoring and defense, and more flashes of rookie experience. We have Tyreke and Kevin and that's it that you can take to the bank now. We will get better this season but no miracles. They have to find some quality pieces - at least one - over the summer and I think they will. In the meantime as always I have and will enjoy watching them play. Even though I have to turn the TV off once in a while.

 

[FaStRmAn]

Nice article by Breton, which continues the sudden apparent change in tone from the Bee...

Breton: Kings were in trouble before Martin's return



And...



And one more...



I haven't often agreed with Marcos Breton but I think he's got a view well worth reading. I'm glad he wrote it...

I could not agree more. Martin isn't the problem. Now that he is active, he is PART of the problem, but he also could become part of the solution too!

The KINGS were a 17 win team last year. The worst in the NBA by some reckoning. They had a good draft by one of the best draft day GURU's around in Geoff Petrie. The fact is that ALL 3 of Petrie's draft day selections have at some point started games for the Kings this year! That speaks not only to how Great Petrie is, but to how BAD the shape of the team was/is in.

The Kings are still without a Center despite our best efforts to prop up Hawes in the middle and tell everyone he is 7 feet tall so he must be a center. Despite the fact that we started Sean May (last seen on a Milk Carton at a breakfast table near you) to open the season. Despite the fact that we HAD to start 6'7" John Brockman over Hawes because Brockman plays bigger than 6'7" (like 6'10" maybe) and unfortunately Hawes plays smaller than the 7'1" he actually is (like 6'3" approximately give or take an inch...) Until the Kings front office can deliver us a Center, the Kings are going to be playing uphill every game they play! Hawes is not a NBA Quality starter at center at this point in his career (lets leave the discussion of whether he will EVER be a center in the NBA to a different thread).

So what Petrie and Westphal are trying to do is patch up the middle of our defense by playing a LOT of ZONE, using constant double teams, and using players who ARE strong enough to PUSH opposing NBA centers out from directly under the basket so that they dont just catch the ball, turn slightly, and put it in the bucket every time down the floor. But Playing so much ZONE and double teaming makes for a lot of wide open shots for the other team. NBA players dont last very long in the NBA if they can't make 80-85% of Wide Open Shots. This is the main reason IMHO that the Kings are losing so many games. Teams are exploiting the Kings and the Kings record reflects that.

Jason Thompson is 6'11" and he plays about that height. But as a second year player, he is going through what some may call the sophomore slump. Teams have had a chance to see what JT is about and are prepared to defend him effectively now. So in effect, The Kings have NO POST GAME to speak of. The only reason we have so many points in the paint are due to the fact that we DO have some VERY productive backcourt players that can get in the paint and score over other teams centers. That is good but lately it has not been enough.

I believe that Geoff Petrie is looking for help for the Kings in the post. It would be great if he could find a way to parley some of the great wing players we have into one solid NBA center who can defend other NBA Centers without the constant need for double teaming . A center that can rebound defensively. I believe that before the Feb 19th trade deadline the Kings will have a new post player that will be able to do what we need in the short term. Play defense at center, grab rebounds, and not have to have double team help EVERY single time the other team's center gets the ball in the post! That kind of player would really help the Kings.

I think the situation being what it is, Paul Westphal has done an AMAZING job when you consider the team he inherited and where the Kings are right now! He has got this young bunch of players playing with heart, and playing hard even when the score is lopsided. The young players like Tyreke and Casspi are getting valuable experience. JT and even Hawes are getting minutes to help improve their games. Remember, this was a 17 win team last year. And barring injury or some unforeseen calamity, they are going to exceed that win total this year.

I think Petrie believes Hawes will improve as he grows into his 21 year old body and gets stronger. Right now he is TOO THIN to WIN! He will fill out over the next year or 2 and when his lower body gets strong enough to hold his ground in the paint he will become an effective post player. That doesn't happen overnight though so Petrie will find a player who is a defensive minded player to help Hawes in the interim. Lets look at all the positives and not dwell on all the negatives. This team is better than a 17 win team! The have gone through a really tough stretch of games but they have played DIVISION leading teams tough and they beat Denver TWICE!

My fear is that the losing will cause our young players to lose focus and confidence. I think JT is suffering from that a little bit, We need to support our team more than ever now and make sure they are still having fun! The Kings are not a playoff team, but at times they can be fun to watch! Evans is gonna be a bona fide star in this league over time. Lets root for this team because they are TRYING! The team last year kinda went in the tank a bit because of the losing and the fan support dried up. If the fans keep supporting this team, and Petrie works a deal or 2 at the deadline to get the Kings a Real NBA quality big man to help on defense, the Kings are going to be fun to watch all year! Heck, they already ARE fun to watch! In fact, I am gonna go watch the game right now! GO KINGS !!!

 

[nc916]

It's obvious that Martin hasn't been very intense on the defensive end throughout his career, but at least this season he is trying harder. He is averaging 1.4 steals per game, which could mean he is just gambling more but I have noticed he is trying to stay in front of his man more. To back this up, I found that he has drawn 5 offensive fouls in 10 games including two in his first game back against the hawks. Btw one offensive foul every two games would be one of the higher rates in the league.

Of course all of these statistics are using too small of a sample size, but drawing evidence from 10 games hasn't stopped some people on here.

 

[JeffZX]

I agree that Martin is not the problem. However, I do disagree with the writer's contention that Webber was not a problem when he returned from his injury. Others?

 

[gunks]

Cant blame Martin,

But Mr. Emptypoints is no longer needed here, and is also our best trade chip.

As long as GP doesnt do something fool like trade him to the Mavs for Howard, I say ship him out.

 

[sono]

The kings are begging for a trade the way they've been playing lately except Martin perhaps.

 

[Kingsroots]

PLEASE? Are you serious? Do you know anything about the game of basketball, Kevin Martin or the Kings organization? You can't be serious. Tell me that you're being sarcastic here.

Passion and work ethic are nearly synonymous with K$. He wouldn't work so hard in the off-season if he wasn't passionate. He would have slacked once he earned his 'contract'. Your statement is so factually off-base and ignorant I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day to correct you. But, I guess I can count that as my compassionate service for the day. Informing the misinformed.

Kevin Martin is easily one of the most passionate basketball players IN THE LEAGUE. The fact that he's not demonstrative on the court, doesn't mean he's not passionate.

Wrong! I think it's hilarious that you would take soo much of your time to "correct" someone on his/her opinion. Ok, so Kevin works hard in the offseason. So do a lot of players. Tell me this, Since 2004 when we drafted him, what has he gotten better at? Offense maybe? He was drafted because of his offensive abilities already. His defense is atrocious though, and has not gotten better at all. So he works hard in the offseason staying in shape. Big deal. What I am more interested in is the passion to do what it takes to win games, and no matter what other people might say, I don't think he has that.

Also, on a side, the excuse that the games they were winning when Martin was hurt don't count for anything because they were playing bad teams doesn't hold up. We have played a few bad teams WITH Kevin that we looked terrible. Again, this season, wins and losses are not what I am looking at. I am looking at overall play, enthusiasm, hustle, fire, and improvement. We didn't have it with Kev to start the season, had it for a while when he was hurt, and now don't have it again. Don't forget last season the whole team had no passion.(I know different circumstances). At the very least, Kevin is not and will never be a real leader.

 

[slugking50]

Kevin is what Kevin is. Hes a great scorer. That's what he is.


Just because he doesn't act out, jumping around like a banshee doesn't mean he is any less "passionate" on the court. Excuse my language but its a bunch of (bleep). Was John Stockton "passionate" then?!

 

[Bricklayer]

Kevin is what Kevin is. Hes a great scorer. That's what he is.


Just because he doesn't act out, jumping around like a banshee doesn't mean he is any less "passionate" on the court. Excuse my language but its a bunch of (bleep). Was John Stockton "passionate" then?!

John Stockton would have torn Kevin's still beating heart out and eaten it on the court to win a game. And you could feel that, and you could see that. His quiet was the intense quiet of an assassin plotting your demise. He was often the toughest and meanest guy on the court. And if you can't feel the vast gulf between that kind of quiet and Kevin's passive kind of quiet...I'm sorry. Stockton's teammates sure as hell could. In sports nice guys do truly finish last, and Stockton wasn't.

 

[Aenadin]

John Stockton would have torn Kevin's still beating heart out and eaten it on the court to win a game. And you could feel that, and you could see that. His quiet was the intense quiet of an assassin plotting your demise. He was often the toughest and meanest guy on the court. And if you can't feel the vast gulf between that kind of quiet and Kevin's passive kind of quiet...I'm sorry. Stockton's teammates sure as hell could. In sports nice guys do truly finish last, and Stockton wasn't.

when stockton played the team got better.... and when he spoke the team listens

I remember stockton being a tough guy even with his quiet demeanor. Even though he was not garnet like in intensity there was that passion undeniable.

agree with you on all that statements.

btw those who compared stock to martin whoa lets not even go there

 

[slugking50]

John Stockton would have torn Kevin's still beating heart out and eaten it on the court to win a game. And you could feel that, and you could see that. His quiet was the intense quiet of an assassin plotting your demise. He was often the toughest and meanest guy on the court. And if you can't feel the vast gulf between that kind of quiet and Kevin's passive kind of quiet...I'm sorry. Stockton's teammates sure as hell could. In sports nice guys do truly finish last, and Stockton wasn't.

Im aware of that. JS was probably one of the most dirty players ever. I was a bad example I know.. I blame it on the lack of sleep.

 

[VF21]

Closed to avoid duplication with current discussion of Voisin's article...