Brawl Perspective from a fan who was at the scene!

P

PacMan

Bench
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I was at the game and I am a season-ticket holder. My seat is on the first row behind the media table, very close to where it all got out of control... And after being home for a couple of hours and watching the ESPN analysts' comments/response, I am actually VERY disappointed! Jim Gray, Tim Legler and everyone there kept making reference to how Ron was "removing himself from the altercation, and preventing an escalation" by laying on the scorer's table... My apologies, but that is total BS![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I don't know if that is how it was perceived from the camera angles, but I was there. And no, I am not excusing the fans that were throwing stuff, but what Ron was doing was plain and simple – TAUNTING.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He committed an uncalled- or hard foul with 45 seconds left and the game in the bag. The incident got a bit out of hand with the players, and once Ron "stirred the pot" – sort of speak – his actions where as if saying: "Oh, my. Look at what I did. Let them fight it out while I admire my work."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If during regular game-play, players get technical fouls for taunting – as Memo did vs. Prince last week – how can Ron's actions not be viewed as taunting?[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In addition, I have no problem with players attempting to remove Ron from the stands, but what Stephen Jackson
did was inexcusable. He just arrived and started swinging! Same goes for Jermaine![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I understand the argument of self-defense when there is the perception of bodily harm. But, when you run into the fans like that, you are not doing anything to downgrade the situation. Ron was not injured, he got wet. So what? He had about 6-8 feet between himself and the fans, what kind of bodily harm threat was there?[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As for the fans that were punched on the floor in front of the Pacers bench, they were fans that had floor seats. The man did not attack Ron, he heckled. No physical attack, no threat. The guy was all but 5-foot-6. Ron should have just walked away. Anthony Johnson hitting the man while he was on the floor, that was uncalled for. And then Jermaine, sucker-punching him while he is being helped up by security? Criminal!

Now, in terms of what the repercussions will be for fans... All I know is that I will probably lose all my season-ticket holder privileges for something I personally had nothing to do with. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I've been hearing the ESPN crew saying that the first few rows should be pushed back, that there needs to be more distance between fans and players, that contact with players should be eliminated. I think that is a bunch of
BS! As loyal fans, we pay a fortune to get as close to the action as possible. 99.9 percent of the time, there are positive experiences. As a basketball fan, there is no equivalent to sitting courtside.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There will always be hecklers – in every arena, in every sport. As a matter of fact, I was threatened by a Nets fan in New Jersey during Game 3 of the Pistons-Nets series in the last playoffs, for what he referred as "cheering
too loudly for the Pistons" after I made the trip to support my favorite team! But as an overpaid professional athlete, they should just walk away![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]– Rocio Acosta
Detroit, Michigan[/font]

http://www.hoopshype.com/fan_mail/brawl.htm
 
Biased all.

I was going to quote and respond to particular parts of it, and then I realised it was an article and not your own commentary.
 
Since93 said:
30 seconds of my life got wasted.
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Ditto.

Actually, the only good part of the riot at the Palace was seeing the fat, belligerent, Detroit fan get clocked by Germaine O'Neil.
 
Uh hello, the guy is absolutely right, Artest was taunting. If you watched the video closely at all, you'd notice that Artest mockingly puts on headphones as he sits at the scorers table. Reggie Miller swipes them off him, knowing full well that he's not supposed to taunt. Then he lies on the scorers table on his back and crosses his legs, again in a taunting manner.

Actually review the game tape before calling this perspective biased. It's absolutely true.
 
KA_2 said:
Uh hello, the guy is absolutely right, Artest was taunting. If you watched the video closely at all, you'd notice that Artest mockingly puts on headphones as he sits at the scorers table. Reggie Miller swipes them off him, knowing full well that he's not supposed to taunt. Then he lies on the scorers table on his back and crosses his legs, again in a taunting manner.

Actually review the game tape before calling this perspective biased. It's absolutely true.
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Excuse me?? The perspective is biased because it comes from a Piston fan who was practically in the middle of the action....and for no other reason. Notice that everything the Pacers did was wrong and nothing that the Pistons did was wrong. That is a biased report.

And, for you to insinuate that no one here reviewed the tape is pure crap. We have probably all seen it many many times. I know I have.

This is one person's perspective.....you used the word perspective yourself. That means: as that person sees it. Well, other's may have a different "perspective" of what they see. All of our own biases enter into it. Impossible not to.
 
Dan Wetzel puts Anthony, Smith, Legler in their place

Dan Wetzel, in a Yahoo! sports column makes some good commentary about those espn fools who tried to justify artest's insanity.

"By now, any athlete who still thinks the proper response to getting hit by a cup of ice is to charge into the stands and start randomly attacking innocent people (Artest's primary offense) has a room-temperature IQ. The good news is, he probably has a future as an ESPN analyst/apologist. "
 
6th said:
Excuse me?? The perspective is biased because it comes from a Piston fan who was practically in the middle of the action....and for no other reason. Notice that everything the Pacers did was wrong and nothing that the Pistons did was wrong. That is a biased report.

And, for you to insinuate that no one here reviewed the tape is pure crap. We have probably all seen it many many times. I know I have.

This is one person's perspective.....you used the word perspective yourself. That means: as that person sees it. Well, other's may have a different "perspective" of what they see. All of our own biases enter into it. Impossible not to.
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It's pretty cut and dry based on what the tape shows. I don't agree with his thoughts about the fan coming onto the court and not being a threat, I believe Ron was justified in hitting that fan. But Artest was indeed taunting, and it's pretty much fact.
 
Vlad said:
Dan Wetzel, in a Yahoo! sports column makes some good commentary about those espn fools who tried to justify artest's insanity.

"By now, any athlete who still thinks the proper response to getting hit by a cup of ice is to charge into the stands and start randomly attacking innocent people (Artest's primary offense) has a room-temperature IQ. The good news is, he probably has a future as an ESPN analyst/apologist. "
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That was great, thanks.

I was thorougly disappointed by the ESPN panel's comments at justifying the players' end of it, and appeared to single out the blame against the fans. Spoken like true corporate soldiers completely out of touch with the consumer.
 
KA_2 said:
It's pretty cut and dry based on what the tape shows. I don't agree with his thoughts about the fan coming onto the court and not being a threat, I believe Ron was justified in hitting that fan. But Artest was indeed taunting, and it's pretty much fact.
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Let us jsut say that he was. That he was taunting, as opposed to trying to rush at Ben Walace and having to be held back by temamtes -- would that have been better? And would EITHER action even remotely have anything to do with the appropriateness of a fan beaning him with something?

If that's true, they should jsut shoot terrel Owens the next time he comes on into Texas Stadium.
 
I have been thinking about Ron Artest's actions that night in the Motor City.. I really think that he tried to avoid serious confrontations immediately after Wallace shoved him back. Artest's natural reaction ( and desire) given that circumstance would been to fight. I suspect he was mentally doing everything he could to get his emotions under control. For a person like Artest, that would be a daunting effort.

It would be interesting to have data on the testosterone levels of Ron Artest and Ben Wallace. I would venture an unsupported guess that their testosterone levels might make Peja's blood chemistry look like that of elderly woman.

Artest laid on the scorer's table, and that action might seem a bit wierd at first glance. Some have said that Artest was taunting by doing so. I think that he was simply being "cute". I don't think he intended to taunt Wallace. He was vunerable to attack. Sometimes under immense stress, lying down is a good thing to do. I think it was a natural response to extreme stress.

When a retarded Detroit Pistons fan threw a cup of ice on him, I suspect that event pushed his excitement over the threshhold. He was already on the brink of insanity. Artest's emotional state was similar to what we have observed with Rasheed Wallace for years. Artest reacted very poorly, much to the detriment of himself, the Pacers, and the NBA.

I used to feel sorry for Rasheed when he acted like a fool. He was a victim of his own metabolism and life experiences. It was nice to see that Rasheed was not involved in the action at the Palace.
 
KA_2 said:
Uh hello, the guy is absolutely right, Artest was taunting. If you watched the video closely at all, you'd notice that Artest mockingly puts on headphones as he sits at the scorers table. Reggie Miller swipes them off him, knowing full well that he's not supposed to taunt. Then he lies on the scorers table on his back and crosses his legs, again in a taunting manner.

Actually review the game tape before calling this perspective biased. It's absolutely true.
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Are you sure it was Reggie? Because from everything I've seen, he didn't even come close to leaving the bench area until later on in the brawl. While Artest was laying on the scorers table, Reggie was at least 20 feet away.
 
I heard a Detroit resident, who claimed to have been at the Palace the other night, say that the fat guy who was punched by Artest and O'Neil on the court was a 16 year-old ball-boy. Did that guy look 16 to you? He looked to be in his mid-twneties to me. If the guy was indeed 16, I suspect he learned a lesson in discretion. Stay out of situations like that which occurred.

He also claimed that Artest grabbed Wallace's huevos and called him a female dog. Does this make sense? Islamic terrorists must have poisoned the water in Detroit with mind-altering drugs or something. I don't believe it.
 
quick dog said:
When a retarded Detroit Pistons fan threw a cup of ice on him, I suspect that event pushed his excitement over the threshhold. He was already on the brink of insanity. Artest's emotional state was similar to what we have observed with Rasheed Wallace for years. Artest reacted very poorly, much to the detriment of himself, the Pacers, and the NBA.

I used to feel sorry for Rasheed when he acted like a fool. He was a victim of his own metabolism and life experiences. It was nice to see that Rasheed was not involved in the action at the Palace.
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Rasheed Wallace never used to fight anyone. He had a temper and used to argue with the officials with abandon, but I can't ever remember him fighting another player or even getting into any confrontations with other players. This is a bad comparison, IMO.

And regardless of how mad you are, if you do something wrong, your anger level doesn't justify your actions. You did it because you were mad? Okay, your anger may have been justified; your actions most certainly were not.
 
Superman said:
Rasheed Wallace never used to fight anyone. He had a temper and used to argue with the officials with abandon, but I can't ever remember him fighting another player or even getting into any confrontations with other players. This is a bad comparison, IMO.

And regardless of how mad you are, if you do something wrong, your anger level doesn't justify your actions. You did it because you were mad? Okay, your anger may have been justified; your actions most certainly were not.
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You missed the point.
 
By all means, help me out.

What I got is that you're saying that Ron Artest tripped out because he has high testerone levels and is easily angered.

My response is that he is still not justified.

I also disagree with your comparison between Ron Artest and Rasheed Wallace, because Rasheed never resorted to violence and never even had violent confrontations. Two hot heads, yes, but not the same kind of hot heads.
 
Superman said:
Rasheed Wallace never used to fight anyone. He had a temper and used to argue with the officials with abandon, but I can't ever remember him fighting another player or even getting into any confrontations with other players.
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What about Sabonis?
 
Didnt Sheed start the fight between the Warriors and Blazers a while back that led to Chris Mills going insane and waiting by the Blazers' bus to sabotage them?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
What about Sabonis?
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That's true. A relatively tame confrontation compared to what Artest has been involved in through the past three years. And even in light of that, Wallace was never considered a violent person. He had a temper and was a hothead, but he wasn't a flagrant fouler and he didn't get into fights. There's a difference between the two, if you ask me. That's what my point was.
 
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Yep Supe has it right. Sheed whie a nut job back in thedaywas all mouth. He got his butt suspend a few times for a a few games, but mostly hejust got Ts... Lots and lots of Ts. Seems he amtured and where ever Artest lands I hope he can straighten out him self. It is a terrible thing to see some one with so much tallent embarass him self and the sport. There was a day I would have cringed at the thought of Sheed in a Kings jersey, today if he came to Sac I'd buy his jearsy.
 
HndsmCelt said:
Yep Supe has it right. Sheed whie a nut job back in thedaywas all mouth. He got his butt suspend a few times for a a few games, but mostly hejust got Ts... Lots and lots of Ts. Seems he amtured and where ever Artest lands I hope he can straighten out him self. It is a terrible thing to see some one with so much tallent embarass him self and the sport. There was a day I would have cringed at the thought of Sheed in a Kings jersey, today if he came to Sac I'd buy his jearsy.
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Celt. Just look at your spelling and typing! Have you been turning a few horns?
 
quick dog said:
I heard a Detroit resident, who claimed to have been at the Palace the other night, say ..... He also claimed that Artest grabbed Wallace's huevos and called him a female dog. Does this make sense?
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He must have remembered watching a replay of last year's playoff series between Denver and Twolves and confused Artest with KG...oh, never mind...
:D
 
I don't feel one bit of sympathy for the players that went into the stands. If you're going to go into the stands, you better know what's coming to you...and Fred Jones, Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest sure did.

Why's everybody on the players jock ? Yeah, the fans were being idiots...but you do not jump into the stands. If Artest did this in Europe, he'd be 5 feet underground. The Detroit crowd is relatively calm compared to what would have gone on elsewhere.
 
Stojakovic said:
I don't feel one bit of sympathy for the players that went into the stands. If you're going to go into the stands, you better know what's coming to you...and Fred Jones, Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest sure did.

Why's everybody on the players jock ? Yeah, the fans were being idiots...but you do not jump into the stands. If Artest did this in Europe, he'd be 5 feet underground. The Detroit crowd is relatively calm compared to what would have gone on elsewhere.
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Because certain European venues tolerate hooliganism doesn't make it even remotely right. Hooligans = scum. I'm not intersted in siding with scum.

In any case the players did just fine once they got inot the stands if we're going to go on some sort of stupid macho scale. No surprise -- they are some of the largest most powerful men you are likely to run into. But Fred Jones wasn't doing anything to anybody. He got clobbered from behind, and the man you seem to support is going to be criminally charged with aggravated assault charges because of it. Since Jones wasn't doing anything, and since the man wasn't hit himself by anybody, he's not going to have any excuses either.
 
Bricklayer said:
Because certain European venues tolerate hooliganism doesn't make it even remotely right. Hooligans = scum. I'm not intersted in siding with scum.
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I completely agree. However, when a player does something like that (I don't care what the situation is...if he got hit by a beer cup, bottle or missile) I don't blame the fans for anything that occurs from the point the player crosses the line between the court and the fans' section.

In any case the players did just fine once they got inot the stands if we're going to go on some sort of stupid macho scale. No surprise -- they are some of the largest most powerful men you are likely to run into. But Fred Jones wasn't doing anything to anybody. He got clobbered from behind, and the man you seem to support is going to be criminally charged with aggravated assault charges because of it. Since Jones wasn't doing anything, and since the man wasn't hit himself by anybody, he's not going to have any excuses either.
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Some of them are the largest and powerful men , but did you see the crowd they were up against ? One guy was a q-tip holding a beer cup, and the others were big donuts who were easier to jump over than get around. One of those boys was 16 years old. I've seen how those large and powerful men do...especially against Ben Wallace's relative. I don't care if Fred Jones didn't do anything, he entered the stands didn't he ? He's got no business there, just like the two donuts didn't have any business being on the court...and Artest sure showed his displeasure with their presence on there.
 
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