Boogie, Karl, etc. from an unbiased POV

Mr. S£im Citrus said:
The number is greater than zero, is the point.

I feel like people are reading my posts, and what they think I'm typing is, "DEMARCUS IS TEH SUX0RS~! WHY YOU NO MAKE PLAYOFFS?!", when all I really want to know is why the team didn't even get one win better? Look, I hear all this talk about eras, and nineteen year-olds, and whatnot, so I just did a little research, and confined my search parameters to the one-and-done era (2005-present). Since 2005, twenty-one big men have been taken Top 5 in the draft*. Some of them have had bigger roles on their respective teams than others. Some have been complete non-factors in their respective teams' success or failures. Some of them got the ball, and some didn't. Some of them went to teams that were already flush with talent, and some of them went to ****ty teams. But the following is fact: regardless of extenuating circumstances, of those twenty-one big men drafted in the Top 5 since 2005 (the one-and-done era), every single one of them, in their rookie season, made their team at least one win better than the season before... except for one.

Somebody's going to have to explain that to me.





* - I'm talking about guys that have played; I didn't count, like, Embiid.
Click to expand...
There is a very simple explanation.....
 
CuzistanKing said:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster here (hello!)

I feel like, when discussing why DMC has never gotten his teams further than he has, people are focusing on the wrong side of the court. Kings teams lost their games with defense (or lack of thereof) first and foremost. And while a great talent absolutely can single-handedly get you buckets (and there were many, many times in this past season where DMC had done just that), I simply cannot see how one can defend 1-on-5 which is exactly what happened more times than I can count in the games I watched. The incompetent FO consistently gave our superstar supporting cast that was not only bad at complementing his skills offensively, but also was completely disinterested in defending their man or helping with rotations at all. If I'm DMC, I'm not sure what else I can do beside stand there and watch as my point guard lazily hugs his screener and expects me to guard two people at once; or when my wings leave their 3-pt shooters so open they can set up their own lemonade stands. The only time when a coach was able to get the entire team to buy into the defensive mindset (and what do you know, we started winning!) and the "DMC for MVP" whispers started gaining some momentum, that coach was promptly canned because defense was considered an STD in Sactown.

Bottom line, give DMC any sort of supporting cast that is at least capable defensively, and he'll get you 10+ extra wins, easily. Otherwise, no matter how great he is, he cannot prevent all 5 of the opposing players from scoring at once.
Click to expand...

GREAT post. This guy gets it. ^
 
DMC didn't fully put it together until last season. Before that he was already a great offensive player but he didn't really affect the game defensively in any significant way. He was a one way star from year 2 to 4(started seeing some signs of defense in year 4 actually). Until year 5 and I thought the Team USA experience helped significantly, did he truly become a 2 way star. Elite offensively and one of the better rim protectors in the league. The 9-5 start was directly correlated to that. That's what makes me so excited for next season. Not only do we have a true two way star, but now he has front court help and just a better roster overall.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
This has nothing to do with splitting hairs. If we didn't even have a draft pick in 2010, that team should have won one more game than it did the year before. I'm telling you, the team we started 2010-11 with was better at every position than the team we ended 2009-10 with. We should have at least won the same number of games as the year before, even if we didn't have Cousins at all.
Click to expand...

That's true. And yet the Thunder added Westbrook to Durant, Green & company and only won three more games the next year.

Coaching change, relocating from Seattle to OKC - - both legitimate reasons why a team with a superstar talent didn't take a leap.

But I think it's also about integrating another star level talent. Westbrook wasn't ready to be a serious threat yet but with enough potential that he needed to see the floor and KD needed to learn to play with him.

Then the next year the leap came. Revisionist history might credit the arrival of Harden & Ibaka but they had good but not amazing rookie years.

Same coach, same system, same two stars, adding talent each season and the patience to let it grow were bigger factors.

Cousins never got all that.

Cousins has struggled to control his emotions, he had friction/run ins with coaches, teammates, refs, even Sean Elliot for inexplicable reasons. He was an inefficient scorer, a poor leader, sloppy with turnovers and a subpar defender. All of that was on him and made it harder for the Kings to be successful in some ways. But he's not the reason the Kings have failed to win more games. Because as the stats have shown when he is out of the lineup the Kings record is even worse.

I lay a lot more of the blame at the feet of the Kings ownership and front office than at Cousins not being good enough.
 
Npliam said:
There is a very simple explanation.....
Click to expand...

Tyreke Evans got hurt and was never himself?

I agree.

It didn't help that our SFs cratered out the same year, but it was largely the Tyreke factor.

In 2009-10 Tyreke led the team with an 18.2 PER, the only truly exceptional PER (and still not dominant) on the team. The second highest was Kevin Martin's 17.0 before he left. The third highest was Carl Landry's 16.0 after he replaced Kevin. So basically whatever success we did have in 09-10 was the direct result of the single above average player we had on the roster.

In 2010-11 Tyreke never showed up. He played 500 less minutes on the season, and in those minutes accumulated a 14.4 PER. We lost the only reason we were doing anything the year before. In fact until we traded for Marcus Thornton at the deadline our highest PER on the team was Beno at 15.7, the same he had the year before. Now those last 28 games with Thornton felt hopeful again that season precisely because Thornton arrived and played himself into some money in those 28 games putting up exactly the same 18.2 PER Reke had the previous season for 72 games.

No huge mystery to it. We had one exceptional player that game us any hope. He got hurt. The next season we were almost able to make up for it with a little more depth. But unfortunately until the Thornton trade, with Reke struggling all of our decent depth played 2 positions. Our SF got worse, our PG got worse, and critically we effectively lost our leader at the same time an extremely immature young big was joining the team. This by the way was also the first year if I recall correctly of relocation gate.
 
We will also never know how many wins everything would have translated to last season had that very unfortunate bout of meningitis not derailed what was a VERY strong start. You do remember that DMC was out for nearly a month. We couldn't win a game to save our lives during that time (hmmm, kind of gives you an indication of the level of talent surrounding him and just how crucial he is to even any modicum of success we managed to eek out last year) 2 weeks of bed rest plays havoc on your conditioning as a pro athlete, as does a week of only being able to do stationary shooting drills after. He still played like a freak when he returned, but I would venture to say he didn't hit anywhere back to the condition he was in until about a month later. Of course, by then, the season had been blown up by front office ineptitude and things were in disarray.
 
funkykingston said:
That's true. And yet the Thunder added Westbrook to Durant, Green & company and only won three more games the next year.

Coaching change, relocating from Seattle to OKC - - both legitimate reasons why a team with a superstar talent didn't take a leap.

But I think it's also about integrating another star level talent. Westbrook wasn't ready to be a serious threat yet but with enough potential that he needed to see the floor and KD needed to learn to play with him.

Then the next year the leap came. Revisionist history might credit the arrival of Harden & Ibaka but they had good but not amazing rookie years.

Same coach, same system, same two stars, adding talent each season and the patience to let it grow were bigger factors.

Cousins never got all that.

Cousins has struggled to control his emotions, he had friction/run ins with coaches, teammates, refs, even Sean Elliot for inexplicable reasons. He was an inefficient scorer, a poor leader, sloppy with turnovers and a subpar defender. All of that was on him and made it harder for the Kings to be successful in some ways. But he's not the reason the Kings have failed to win more games. Because as the stats have shown when he is out of the lineup the Kings record is even worse.

I lay a lot more of the blame at the feet of the Kings ownership and front office than at Cousins not being good enough.
Click to expand...
That's all true, but "only three more" is still three more.
 
Bricklayer said:
Tyreke Evans got hurt and was never himself?

I agree.

It didn't help that our SFs cratered out the same year, but it was largely the Tyreke factor.

In 2009-10 Tyreke led the team with an 18.2 PER, the only truly exceptional PER (and still not dominant) on the team. The second highest was Kevin Martin's 17.0 before he left. The third highest was Carl Landry's 16.0 after he replaced Kevin. So basically whatever success we did have in 09-10 was the direct result of the single above average player we had on the roster.

In 2010-11 Tyreke never showed up. He played 500 less minutes on the season, and in those minutes accumulated a 14.4 PER. We lost the only reason we were doing anything the year before. In fact until we traded for Marcus Thornton at the deadline our highest PER on the team was Beno at 15.7, the same he had the year before. Now those last 28 games with Thornton felt hopeful again that season precisely because Thornton arrived and played himself into some money in those 28 games putting up exactly the same 18.2 PER Reke had the previous season for 72 games.

No huge mystery to it. We had one exceptional player that game us any hope. He got hurt. The next season we were almost able to make up for it with a little more depth. But unfortunately until the Thornton trade, with Reke struggling all of our decent depth played 2 positions. Our SF got worse, our PG got worse, and critically we effectively lost our leader at the same time an extremely immature young big was joining the team. This by the way was also the first year if I recall correctly of relocation gate.
Click to expand...
So, basically, you're saying that Evans/Udrih/Greene/Thompson/Hawes > Udrih/Thornton/Casspi/Cousins/Dalembert? Because I wouldn't have had Evans as that important, and I like Evans way more than I like Cousins.
 
Kingsgurl said:
We will also never know how many wins everything would have translated to last season had that very unfortunate bout of meningitis not derailed what was a VERY strong start. You do remember that DMC was out for nearly a month. We couldn't win a game to save our lives during that time (hmmm, kind of gives you an indication of the level of talent surrounding him and just how crucial he is to even any modicum of success we managed to eek out last year) 2 weeks of bed rest plays havoc on your conditioning as a pro athlete, as does a week of only being able to do stationary shooting drills after. He still played like a freak when he returned, but I would venture to say he didn't hit anywhere back to the condition he was in until about a month later. Of course, by then, the season had been blown up by front office ineptitude and things were in disarray.
Click to expand...

Not to mention, the illness that you've been fighting through was just used as an excuse to can the only coach that ever "got him". I think Cuz still blames himself for giving the weasel FO an opportunity to dismiss Malone. People like to act as if these 24-year old kids are robots that are supposed to just be professional through everything and maintain the same level of focus and determination, no matter how much doo-doo the higher-ups are shoveling on top of you (and have been for years).
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
So, basically, you're saying that Evans/Udrih/Greene/Thompson/Hawes > Udrih/Thornton/Casspi/Cousins/Dalembert? Because I wouldn't have had Evans as that important, and I like Evans way more than I like Cousins.
Click to expand...

Marcus Thornton played in 28 games for a total of 1030 minutes. The previous season Tyreke had given us 2677.
 
Bricklayer said:
Tyreke Evans got hurt and was never himself?

I agree.

It didn't help that our SFs cratered out the same year, but it was largely the Tyreke factor.

In 2009-10 Tyreke led the team with an 18.2 PER, the only truly exceptional PER (and still not dominant) on the team. The second highest was Kevin Martin's 17.0 before he left. The third highest was Carl Landry's 16.0 after he replaced Kevin. So basically whatever success we did have in 09-10 was the direct result of the single above average player we had on the roster.

In 2010-11 Tyreke never showed up. He played 500 less minutes on the season, and in those minutes accumulated a 14.4 PER. We lost the only reason we were doing anything the year before. In fact until we traded for Marcus Thornton at the deadline our highest PER on the team was Beno at 15.7, the same he had the year before. Now those last 28 games with Thornton felt hopeful again that season precisely because Thornton arrived and played himself into some money in those 28 games putting up exactly the same 18.2 PER Reke had the previous season for 72 games.

No huge mystery to it. We had one exceptional player that game us any hope. He got hurt. The next season we were almost able to make up for it with a little more depth. But unfortunately until the Thornton trade, with Reke struggling all of our decent depth played 2 positions. Our SF got worse, our PG got worse, and critically we effectively lost our leader at the same time an extremely immature young big was joining the team. This by the way was also the first year if I recall correctly of relocation gate.
Click to expand...
No, that isn't it.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Check yourself, Cube. I may be playing the role tonight, but I still ride with my team, and this message board.

Just remember who's cookout you're at.
Click to expand...
I will be fine. I have no ill will. I do have my opinion.

1)Cousins had potential to be a beast.
2)He wasn't for the first couple of years.
3)He is becoming the beast he had the potential to be.

I think it is #2 that throws people.
 
funkykingston said:
Hard to argue that math.

To me it says Kevin Durant is a bigger talent than Boogie. Or at the very least he was his first couple years.
Click to expand...

Big men take a longer time to develop compared to guards or forwards that are good at shooting and/or scoring coming out of college.
 
CuzistanKing said:
Not to mention, the illness that you've been fighting through was just used as an excuse to can the only coach that ever "got him". I think Cuz still blames himself for giving the weasel FO an opportunity to dismiss Malone. People like to act as if these 24-year old kids are robots that are supposed to just be professional through everything and maintain the same level of focus and determination, no matter how much doo-doo the higher-ups are shoveling on top of you (and have been for years).
Click to expand...

The force is strong in this one.

Welcome to Kingsfans.com!!
 
CuzistanKing said:
Not to mention, the illness that you've been fighting through was just used as an excuse to can the only coach that ever "got him". I think Cuz still blames himself for giving the weasel FO an opportunity to dismiss Malone. People like to act as if these 24-year old kids are robots that are supposed to just be professional through everything and maintain the same level of focus and determination, no matter how much doo-doo the higher-ups are shoveling on top of you (and have been for years).
Click to expand...

Great post.

And the best username award goes too...... (!!!)
 
Bricklayer said:
Wasn't sure where else to put this, didn't want to clutter the board with another thread on the same topic, but new column/story on nba.com:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2015/07/10/karl-cousins-remain-work-in-progress/?ls=iref:nbahpts
Click to expand...

Good read. Here's the most important part to me - Karl saying “I’m not authorized to speak about that,” when talking about his relationship with Cuz. I guess when Vlade tells you to STFU, you listen, even if you're a 64-year old HOF coach.

I have more hope now in Cuz/Karl actually working out because: Cuz knows he has that one person that he can trust (for the first time since Malone was fired) and Karl knows that Vlade will not tolerate any more shenanigans. As long as both of them focus on winning games, we'll be okay. My main fear is actually Karl's ability to utilize the team to its potential defensively, to play big and grind other pansy teams to dust.
 
While I am not the most knowledgeable about Kings basketball I do watch a lot of NBA. Correct me if i am wrong but I just want to point out a few factors which could explain why the Kings "lost more game when Dcuz was drafted"

1. You were terrible at defense (I'll get to why)
2. You had a VERY VERY young team. I believe all starters except one were in their first 4 years of the league?
3. You had no TRUE PG. Tyreke wasn't the skilled distributor he is now and thornton was more of an undersized 2 and Garcia well he's garcia...
4. D Cuz was VERY Immature, foul prone and not developed.
5. Finally, once again, you were terrible at defense. ( I can't really speak to coaching, because I didn't follow closely enough).

Does this sound about right? Now you have........

a. Better coach
b. Experience
c. Defensive Players
d. A true PG
e. An experienced Dcuz

Also, I love Vlade. He used to be the man when he played, and I think he has a lot of balls to make the moves he did and keep Dcuz from flipping out.
 
CuzistanKing said:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster here (hello!)

I feel like, when discussing why DMC has never gotten his teams further than he has, people are focusing on the wrong side of the court. Kings teams lost their games with defense (or lack of thereof) first and foremost. And while a great talent absolutely can single-handedly get you buckets (and there were many, many times in this past season where DMC had done just that), I simply cannot see how one can defend 1-on-5 which is exactly what happened more times than I can count in the games I watched. The incompetent FO consistently gave our superstar supporting cast that was not only bad at complementing his skills offensively, but also was completely disinterested in defending their man or helping with rotations at all. If I'm DMC, I'm not sure what else I can do beside stand there and watch as my point guard lazily hugs his screener and expects me to guard two people at once; or when my wings leave their 3-pt shooters so open they can set up their own lemonade stands. The only time when a coach was able to get the entire team to buy into the defensive mindset (and what do you know, we started winning!) and the "DMC for MVP" whispers started gaining some momentum, that coach was promptly canned because defense was considered an STD in Sactown.

Bottom line, give DMC any sort of supporting cast that is at least capable defensively, and he'll get you 10+ extra wins, easily. Otherwise, no matter how great he is, he cannot prevent all 5 of the opposing players from scoring at once.
Click to expand...
CuzistanKing said:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster here (hello!)

I feel like, when discussing why DMC has never gotten his teams further than he has, people are focusing on the wrong side of the court. Kings teams lost their games with defense (or lack of thereof) first and foremost. And while a great talent absolutely can single-handedly get you buckets (and there were many, many times in this past season where DMC had done just that), I simply cannot see how one can defend 1-on-5 which is exactly what happened more times than I can count in the games I watched. The incompetent FO consistently gave our superstar supporting cast that was not only bad at complementing his skills offensively, but also was completely disinterested in defending their man or helping with rotations at all. If I'm DMC, I'm not sure what else I can do beside stand there and watch as my point guard lazily hugs his screener and expects me to guard two people at once; or when my wings leave their 3-pt shooters so open they can set up their own lemonade stands. The only time when a coach was able to get the entire team to buy into the defensive mindset (and what do you know, we started winning!) and the "DMC for MVP" whispers started gaining some momentum, that coach was promptly canned because defense was considered an STD in Sactown.

Bottom line, give DMC any sort of supporting cast that is at least capable defensively, and he'll get you 10+ extra wins, easily. Otherwise, no matter how great he is, he cannot prevent all 5 of the opposing players from scoring at once.
Click to expand...
You know, you're kinda smart! So you're saying that if you add a bunch of ball dominant, me first, no defense playing players, along with an inept front office and coach, you can't lay the blame at the feet of the franchise big who doesn't dictate the way the offense runs and can't defend everybody else's player also?
 
CuzistanKing said:
Good read. Here's the most important part to me - Karl saying “I’m not authorized to speak about that,” when talking about his relationship with Cuz. I guess when Vlade tells you to STFU, you listen, even if you're a 64-year old HOF coach.

I have more hope now in Cuz/Karl actually working out because: Cuz knows he has that one person that he can trust (for the first time since Malone was fired) and Karl knows that Vlade will not tolerate any more shenanigans. As long as both of them focus on winning games, we'll be okay.
Click to expand...
And now we get to the crux of Vlades comment that he 'had to do something he didn't want to do'. And the best part being? Vlade had the balls to do it. Said it before but bears repeating. The addition of Vlade will be the turning point we all look back on...
 
Kingsguy881 said:
And now we get to the crux of Vlades comment that he 'had to do something he didn't want to do'. And the best part being? Vlade had the balls to do it. Said it before but bears repeating. The addition of Vlade will be the turning point we all look back on...
Click to expand...

He's the most valuable man on our team right now...and it's not close
 
Chasing9 said:
While I am not the most knowledgeable about Kings basketball I do watch a lot of NBA. Correct me if i am wrong but I just want to point out a few factors which could explain why the Kings "lost more game when Dcuz was drafted"

1. You were terrible at defense (I'll get to why)
2. You had a VERY VERY young team. I believe all starters except one were in their first 4 years of the league?
3. You had no TRUE PG. Tyreke wasn't the skilled distributor he is now and thornton was more of an undersized 2 and Garcia well he's garcia...
4. D Cuz was VERY Immature, foul prone and not developed.
5. Finally, once again, you were terrible at defense. ( I can't really speak to coaching, because I didn't follow closely enough).

Does this sound about right? Now you have........

a. Better coach
b. Experience
c. Defensive Players
d. A true PG
e. An experienced Dcuz

Also, I love Vlade. He used to be the man when he played, and I think he has a lot of balls to make the moves he did and keep Dcuz from flipping out.
Click to expand...

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but these are all things Kings fans have discussed ad nauseum for the past four years. Believe me, there is no analysis of DMC that hasn't been made time and time again. :)
 
dude12 said:
And what did he say wrong?
Click to expand...

He needs to stop giving dumb indirect answers to ever question regarding demarcus cousins getting traded. He needs to stop talking so much. Nothing he said helped the situation at all. It just makes things worse and drags it along
 
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