Boogie and the League's Other Pure Centers

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
So, consensus, and I think accurate consensus, is that Boogie has gotten off to a rough start this season. Not at all up to his potential.

Now consider this:

2012-12 Top 6 Pure Centers* stats per 36:
Br. Lopez 22.4pts (.534 .638) 8.2reb 1.0ast 0.6stl 3.0blk 2.1TO 3.1Fl
DCousins 19.8pts (.424 .741) 12.0reb 2.5ast 1.7stl 0.8blk 3.1TO 3.8Fl
Jefferson 18.8pts (.484 .803) 11.5reb 2.1ast 1.2stl 1.2blk 1.6TO 2.9Fl
DHoward 18.7pts (.590 .477) 11.5reb 1.8ast 1.1stl 2.7blk 3.2TO 3.6Fl
GMonroe 16.8pts (.458 .703) 10.3pts 3.8ast 1.7stl 0.8blk 3.6TO 2.8Fl
MarGasol 15.6pts (.505 .908) 7.4reb 4.4ast 0.7stl 1.4blk 1.6TO 3.3Fl

*i.e. leaving off Garnett/Horford as PFs
 
Why do you think p/36 holds value? Legitimately curious as I've seen you use it on multiple occasions when it's a fairly worthless stat in reality.

However, the point is still valid. I don't think anyone would say Boogie was playing fully up to his potential the past 3 games and he put up top 3 C numbers in the game.
 
I really wish he could get that FG% up to roughly 45-47%, I don't mind it being below 50% since he has to create for himself more than any of those other big men mentioned. WIth Demarcus when hes at his best for that game I would take him over any big man but the problem is hes not at his best all the time and the difference between his best and worest is far greater than the other centres on the list.

Those stats tell us what we already know the dude can play but hes not consistant enough yet for my taste
 
Reke 13 Havoc said:
i think it shows the players real production. especially in the case of DeMarcus where foul trouble and a stupid coach have severely hurt his Per Game averages
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But see that's just it. Foul trouble. One of his glaring weaknesses is that most of the time he's not able to keep himself on the floor as much as he should be because he commits too many fouls (and many of them totally unnecessary). The per/36 does not capture this flaw. It also doesn't capture the negative affect he has on the organization when he starts acting childish on and off the court.

I will, however, give him some credit. The past few games he seems to be more focused and is obviously trying to eliminate some of his bad habits. Who knew that all it would take would be an *** chewing from Grant Napier to get him motivated!
 
LWP777 said:
But see that's just it. Foul trouble. One of his glaring weaknesses is that most of the time he's not able to keep himself on the floor as much as he should be because he commits too many fouls (and many of them totally unnecessary).
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but see, fixing his foul problem is very possible(getting him to stop reaching for steals in the back court would immediately help a lot)

meanwhile, giving other big men in the league the skills that DeMarcus possesses, not such an easy task
 
Reke 13 Havoc said:
i think it shows the players real production. especially in the case of DeMarcus where foul trouble and a stupid coach have severely hurt his Per Game averages
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It shows the exact opposite of a player's real production. All p/36 does is extrapolate your current mpg averages over a 36 minute scale. P/36 is a purely hypothetical stat without any science or statistical backing behind the stat to make it worth anything. There are far too many variables that come into play that p/36 does not account for in the minutes it tries to account for.

For instance, if p/36 tells us that Jimmer would be a top 10 scorer in the NBA while maintaining staggering efficiency while doing so. All we would need to do is give him those 36 minutes and he'd be scoring 22 PPG on .610 TS%. I think we could all agree that Jimmer is not a top 10 offensive player.
 
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The_Jamal said:
It shows the exact opposite of a player's real production. All p/36 does is extrapolate your current mpg averages over a 36 minute scale. P/36 is a purely hypothetical stat without any science or statistical backing behind the stat to make it worth anything. There are far too many variables that come into play that p/36 does not account for in the minutes it tries to account for.

For instance, if p/36 tells us that Jimmer would be a top 10 scorer in the NBA while maintaining staggering efficiency while doing so. All we would need to do is give him those 36 minutes and he'd be scoring 22 PPG on .610 TS%. I think we could all agree that Jimmer is not a top 10 offensive player.
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Per/36 is the most accurate way to compare players who play similar minutes and roles. I.e. starters vs. starters or 6th men vs. 6th men. It cuts through the chafe of different coaching styles, one guy having better backups, or another guy playing on a team that always blows people out and so having his minutes limited by garabgetime. You turn on a game and watch 10 minutes of action with Player A vs. Player B, per36 will tell you who is likely to get the better of those minutes.

BTW, regarding fouls etc., you will note that DeMarcus's foul situation is only marginally worse than several of the other centers this season, and has dropped from 5.2 fouls/36 min his rookie season, to 4.7/per 36 last year, and now down to 3.8/per 36 this season, which is reaching down within a normal range -- Dwigth Howard for instance has been at 3.4, 3.6, 3.2, 2.8, 3.6 the last 5 years.

Also note the raw minutes gap between all 6 guys only ranges from 29.7min/gm (Lopez) to 36.2 (Gasol/Howard). Trying to discredit the numbers of 6 starting centers playing within 6 1/2 minutes of each other every game by attacking per36 is silly.
 
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Bricklayer said:
Per/36 is the most accurate way to compare players who play similar minutes and roles. I.e. starters vs. starters or 6th men vs. 6th men. It cuts through the chafe of different coaching styles, one guy having better backups, or another guy playing on a team that always blows people out and so having his minutes limited by garabgetime. You turn on a game and watch 10 minutes of action with Player A vs. Player B, per36 will tell you who is likely to get the better of those minutes.

BTW, regarding fouls etc., you will note that DeMarcus's foul situation is only marginally worse than several of the other centers this season, and has dropped from 5.2 fouls/36 min his rookie season, to 4.7/per 36 last year, and now down to 3.8/per 36 this season, which is reaching down within a normal range -- Dwigth Howard for instance has been at 3.4, 3.6, 3.2, 2.8, 3.6 the last 5 years.

Also note the raw minutes gap between all 6 guys only ranges from 29.7min/gm (Lopez) to 36.2 (Gasol/Howard). Trying to discredit the numbers of 6 starting centers playing within 6 1/2 minutes of each other every game by attacking per36 is silly.
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Fouls/game alone don't tell the whole story though. A guy picking up fouls 3 and 4 in the 4th quarter is going to play a lot more than one who picks up his 3rd in the 2nd. But because the range of 29.7 - 36.2 min/game is fairly close I think it's reasonable to use extrapolation.
 
Cousins has been playing pretty well but has plenty of room to improve. The only thing holding Cousins back is himself. He must maintain his emotions to a tolerable level. He must learn the the Refs giveth and the Refs taketh away:)

He also needs to dunk more. In the words of our favorite play by play guy: "Throw it down Big Man!" LOL

I also think if the Kings would set up JT in the post and bring Cuz out to the top of the key OCCASIONALLY JT could take his man and score at a high percentage. Cousins is a good passer and this skill needs to be utilized more. This would also set Cousins up for his drive to the hoop.

KB
 
If Cousins goes from 42% to 50% and shoots a a couple more free throws a game he will be a monster. As it is now, he is a potential monster that shows flashes of greatness and flashes of being a big 12 year old in a huge body.

The biggest difference between Boogie and say Al Jefferson (I am familiar with both) is that Al is usually Al every night. He shoots a decent percentage, doesn't have a ton of turnovers and can get his shot off whenever he wants. Boogie is great some night and pretty terrible other nights. It makes it hard to win games when he is terrible. It is hard for the Jazz to win games when Al is terrible it just doesn't happen as often.
 
Npliam said:
If Cousins goes from 42% to 50% and shoots a a couple more free throws a game he will be a monster. As it is now, he is a potential monster that shows flashes of greatness and flashes of being a big 12 year old in a huge body.

The biggest difference between Boogie and say Al Jefferson (I am familiar with both) is that Al is usually Al every night. He shoots a decent percentage, doesn't have a ton of turnovers and can get his shot off whenever he wants. Boogie is great some night and pretty terrible other nights. It makes it hard to win games when he is terrible. It is hard for the Jazz to win games when Al is terrible it just doesn't happen as often.
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Yup. Would be good if Brick could include FGA and FTA as well.
 
This is a good thread. While we can debate the merits of "per/36" all day long, there is no doubt that DMC has the talent to become one of the league's best centers, if not THE best center. He just needs to keep his head on straight and continue doing what he's done the past 3 games. It's easy when he's playing well and the team is winning. It's when he struggles and/or the team starts losing that he starts to unravel. Even though I have been highly critical of him on this forum, I am rooting for him to succeed.
 
The_Jamal said:
For instance, if p/36 tells us that Jimmer would be a top 10 scorer in the NBA while maintaining staggering efficiency while doing so. All we would need to do is give him those 36 minutes and he'd be scoring 22 PPG on .610 TS%. I think we could all agree that Jimmer is not a top 10 offensive player.
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well yea, obviously applying the p/36 to players that play 10mpg is going to not work. but using it for starting big men who all play a lot of minutes is at least comparable
 
You can either have good games, bad games, or neutral games where you don't help your team win or lose.

Cousins has mostly bad games with a lot of monster games in between.

A guy like Jefferson has mostly good games with a couple bad ones every now and then.

In the end their numbers can look similar on paper, but Jefferson helped his team win more because he plays well almost every night. It's great when Cousins can dominate a game but that's just one win and one night. If you are awful the next night, then you're no better than a player who played neutral two nights in a row.

If the team depends on you to win and you can only play well half the time, chances are you're going to be around a .500 team. In Cousins case it's lower than that because he doesn't play well half the time. Like I've been preaching here lately, check out his game logs and check out our wins. His success pretty much goes hand in hand with our wins.
 
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ESP47 said:
You can either have good games, bad games, or neutral games where you don't help your team win or lose.

Cousins has mostly bad games with a lot of monster games in between.

A guy like Jefferson has mostly good games with a couple bad ones every now and then.

In the end their numbers can look similar on paper, but Jefferson helped his team win more because he plays well almost every night. It's great when Cousins can dominate a game but that's just one win and one night. If you are awful the next night, then you're no better than a player who played neutral two nights in a row.

If the team depends on you to win and you can only play well half the time, chances are you're going to be around a .500 team. In Cousins case it's lower than that because he doesn't play well half the time. Like I've been preaching here lately, check out his game logs and check out our wins. His success pretty much goes hand in hand with our wins.
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This is a great point. I would love to see some sort of week by week comparison between Cousins and Jefferson over a season to see how steady Jefferson's production is compared to how erratic Cousins' production is.
 
Npliam said:
Give me the stats. I would be interested to see them. As far as Eye test goes......Brooks and IT are Terrible defenders. They are net better than Jimmer.
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Jimmer has the worst defensive rating on the team, the lowest defensive win shares, is the worst defensive rebounder, the worst at steal % and generally can't guard guys that are quicker than he is laterally which is just about every guard in the nba. His effort and focus have improved this year and he seems to be getting better at team d but even with how bad brooks/it can be on d, jimmer is still worse.
 
Reke 13 Havoc said:
ok. after that comment, i can NEVER take anything you say seriously ever again
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You guys need to focus on Brooks and IT on the defensive end the same way you do for Jimmer. They are bad. They usually have the benefit of playing with Tyreke, Demarcus and JT. Jimmer isn't a great defender and he has his nights that he looks terrible on the defensive end but he isn't nearly as bad as he was last year and Brooks and It are just too small to defend.
 
Npliam said:
You guys need to focus on Brooks and IT on the defensive end the same way you do for Jimmer. They are bad. They usually have the benefit of playing with Tyreke, Demarcus and JT. Jimmer isn't a great defender and he has his nights that he looks terrible on the defensive end but he isn't nearly as bad as he was last year and Brooks and It are just too small to defend.
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other than the occasions of them getting posted up by bigger guys i havent seen any problems. and that can usually be blamed on the coach putting them in a bad matchup problem.

if jimmer played as much as Brooks it would be disgusting to watch how badly the other teams PG killed him throughout the game
 
Npliam said:
You guys need to focus on Brooks and IT on the defensive end the same way you do for Jimmer. They are bad. They usually have the benefit of playing with Tyreke, Demarcus and JT. Jimmer isn't a great defender and he has his nights that he looks terrible on the defensive end but he isn't nearly as bad as he was last year and Brooks and It are just too small to defend.
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Brooks is a pretty decent defender at PG, maybe about average, while IT is slightly below average on top of his height hurting him, and Jimmer's the worst of the three. Both the eye test and defensive stats show Jimmer is the worst of the three, and the other aspect is that's largely against backup 1's and 2's, while Brooks is facing off against starting PG's most of the time.

Are any of them great defensively? No, but just because Brooks and IT aren't great doesn't really have anything to do with Jimmer's defense. And while you sit here and say Brooks and IT are just too small to defend, even with the size disadvantage they're still better on that end than Jimmer, which would mean Jimmer is even worse given his size advantage over those two, if you're bringing up size and using it in this argument. If in your mind IT/Brooks are too small and Jimmer has an advantage by being bigger, than he's even worse given with his size advantage over those two.

Show me any stats which show Jimmer is a better defender than IT or Jimmer. You must have some stats to back up your assertion, right? I mean, coming on here and saying what you are without any stats to back it up would be foolish.
 
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Jimmer will never become a great defender sitting on the bench. I don't know if he has a defensive upside but I understand the frustration of his fans.

Brooks should be the best as he has been in the league longest. IT has always had to play defense or he wouldn't have played even in college. A guy his size has to bust his butt at all aspects of basketball. Jimmer didn't play much defense in college and perhaps he was told to save energy on defense so he could carry the offensive load. Defense is a foreign language to him as a guy with one year's experience in the NBA and given the situation he came from. I think this issue doesn't have an easy answer unless being satisfied with who is best in December 2012 is the only answer we need worry about.
 
Reke 13 Havoc said:
i think it shows the players real production. especially in the case of DeMarcus where foul trouble and a stupid coach have severely hurt his Per Game averages
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I think the per 36 number is interesting, and perhaps more revelant to a player thats averaging somewhere between 27 and 32 minutes a game. But once you drop down significantly, I think it loses its value. Basicly because not every player can sustain the same rate as the minutes increase. For instance, a fresh player with fresh legs might be averaging 22 points a game per 36 while only playing 16 minutes a game. But when asked to actually play 36 minutes, fatigue sets in and the numbers drop. In essence, its a player by player situation. Cousins per 36 numbers his first year were very good, but obviously with his conditioning at that time, he never would have been able to sustain those numbers.

In Cousins case now, I think his per 36 numbers are more revelant since he's playing around 30 minutes a game now. The extreme of course is to take a player thats playing 12 minutes a game and say his per 36 numbers compare to Kobe or LeBron. One thing is true. The more minutes per game you play, the harder it is to sustain the same level of play. Thats what separates the stars from the also ran's.
 
andremiller07 said:
I really wish he could get that FG% up to roughly 45-47%, I don't mind it being below 50% since he has to create for himself more than any of those other big men mentioned. WIth Demarcus when hes at his best for that game I would take him over any big man but the problem is hes not at his best all the time and the difference between his best and worest is far greater than the other centres on the list.

Those stats tell us what we already know the dude can play but hes not consistant enough yet for my taste
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Most bigs that play around the basket usually average 50% or above. However, bigs that play in the high post and take shots from that spot, usually shoot under 50%. But, there's no doubt that Cuz is shooting a little too low. I could live with 47%. I think that would be more than acceptable. The irony of the situation is, that a lot of his misses come in the post. I agree, that at times its like he just throws the ball up at the basket with the idea that he'll get the rebound and have an easier shot with the put back.

Sometimes when you look at the post game stats, it looks like Cuz dominated the ball taking 17 or 18 shots. But in truth, there are times in the game when he'll take three shots total off a missed shot in the span of a few seconds and come away with a basket. It doesn't do much for his FGP, but he's hardly dominating the ball.
 
sdballer said:
Jimmer has the worst defensive rating on the team, the lowest defensive win shares, is the worst defensive rebounder, the worst at steal % and generally can't guard guys that are quicker than he is laterally which is just about every guard in the nba. His effort and focus have improved this year and he seems to be getting better at team d but even with how bad brooks/it can be on d, jimmer is still worse.
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The stats aren't quite as dramatic as you make it sound.... Every source I looked at has all three guards pretty close in various defensive statistics.... Hoopdata actually has Jimmer as the best of the 3 across the defensive metrics (except steals). And he doesn't foul as frequently.
 
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