Blow It Up

The_Jamal said:
It's been over 6 months since Philly threw him under the bus after the playoffs. We're heading into half a season of wasted value with him sitting out with a core that's built to win in a 2-3 year window. So what's his timeline for getting traded?

Regardless, you're avoiding the question, because you know Simmons doesn't have trade value right now. And it'd be dumb to flip Fox for him
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got em
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The_Jamal said:
It's been over 6 months since Philly threw him under the bus after the playoffs. We're heading into half a season of wasted value with him sitting out with a core that's built to win in a 2-3 year window. So what's his timeline for getting traded?

Regardless, you're avoiding the question, because you know Simmons doesn't have trade value right now. And it'd be dumb to flip Fox for him
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I answered your question directly. Your premise is wrong for the 101st time.
 
The Effort Police said:
As far as I'm concerned, Buddy and Bagley go. Period.

For Holmes and Barnes, I'd be cool with a package of one under the radar wing and a couple draft picks.

Pick one of the dynamic combo forwards with the lottery pick this year and a rebounding, rim-protecting big in the back end of the first-round with a pick you got for Barnes and/or Holmes.

(Also, don't trade to Barnes to Boston. We'd be kicking ourselves if we accepted that Nesmith/Langford deal last year, and the Celtics are for sure going to try and pry him using their potpourri of trash again).
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You do realize the guy drafted in Boston’s spot Alpheren Sengun has played pretty well. 7th on the Kia Rookie ladder.

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-dec-29-2021

Not to mention the fact had we traded Harrison Barnes, we would have surely lost at least one more game. One more loss would have put us 8th and in the spot to grab Wagner who is the top of this Rookie ladder.

So you are right we should be kicking ourselves.

Center: Holmes, Len
PF: Sengun, Metu
SF: Wagner, Harkless, King
2 guard: Fox, Buddy
Point: Hali, Mitchell, Wright.

If that were our line-up I would be ecstatic.
 
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kb02 said:
I prefer to stick to facts like three time all star, all nba defense.
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In the Eastern conference. The Kings would have made the play-in or playoffs the last couple seasons over there even with Fox missing like 30 games last season. Simmons is great at what he does well though, don't get me wrong. I just don't think all star games mean much
 
Let's not forget some of these big time Haliburton fans were just dragging him 3 weeks ago. If and when we trade Fox, im sure we'll find a way to rag on him and someone else all over again when things go wrong.
 
Livinthedream said:
Still think Fox is the better overall talent when it's all clicking for him. There is something lacking though. Especially this season. My assumption has been that he was given the heads up that he would be traded if the right deal came along. Basketball is less fun and more business for him now.
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You may be on to something here. I thought it was just a hangover from Covid. But your theory is just as likely, if not more.
 
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hrdboild said:
It's the same story over and over with terrible teams. Fans are trying to pick the guy to build around when it isn't about one player it's about the team. We know what it takes for this team to win: multiple players need to play well at the same time. If we clear Fox out so Haliburton can spread his wings so to speak, what happens when Haliburton is having a bad game? What happens when he inevitably goes through his own two month slump after he's getting max contract money? Will the fans turn on him too? We had this same argument about Artest vs. KMart then about IT vs. Tyreke. Then one of them gets traded or leaves in free agency and the team doesn't get any better. Then the other one gets traded or leaves in free agecy and we start the whole cycle over again with someone new. I'm tired of it. If a coaching staff can't get two players as talented as Fox and Haliburton to buy in to the same concept they probably shouldn't be coaching in the NBA.

I do think there is a playoff team here with some important adjustments. Fox and Haliburton work as a tag team duo the same way Lillard and McCollum do though Fox needs to figure out a way to shoot with some consistency from outside. Mitchell works as a spark plug bench guard and occasional starter who turns up the defensive intensity and ensures we win the bench minutes. Davis is inconsistent but he's shown flashes of being a good bench shooter to replace Buddy. I think Bagley and Metu work as energy bigs with stretch 4 potential. I like Jones and Queta as the C rotation -- stop messing around and get some actual size in the paint. So that leaves Buddy, Barnes, and Holmes as the pieces I'd trade and all I'm looking for is a couple of large wings who can defend and knock down spot-up shots.
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Big thumbs up.
 
NewArena said:
In the Eastern conference. The Kings would have made the play-in or playoffs the last couple seasons over there even with Fox missing like 30 games last season. Simmons is great at what he does well though, don't get me wrong. I just don't think all star games mean much
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3 all star appearances and an all nba defensive nod is still 3 more all star appearances and one more all nba defensive nod than anyone else on this team.
 
NewArena said:
Let's not forget some of these big time Haliburton fans were just dragging him 3 weeks ago. If and when we trade Fox, im sure we'll find a way to rag on him and someone else all over again when things go wrong.
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It's what we do in Sacramento.
 
kb02 said:
3 all star appearances and an all nba defensive nod is still 3 more all star appearances and one more all nba defensive nod than anyone else on this team.
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He's not an all-star this year.

You keep mentioning weak signals, but you're avoiding the strongest of signals here. Simmons is not ready. If he is truly dealing with mental issues, we're not getting the player you think we are. If he's not dealing with them, then we're getting a different kind of head case.

Finally, there's no way I trade Fox this year. This organization has yet to show any shred of competency, why would we try and reset when we don't know who's driving the bus next year?
Who is coming in to coach the team next year? Gentry? You'll get more of what you saw this year. There's no way Simmons buys in to him. I don't even think he'd buy into someone like Christie - a new guy with (from an outsider's perspective) no history of coaching.

I think Kings fans are being disingenuous if they think we've competently tried to put a winning team on the floor with this crew. They showed growth and promise under Joerger. Do you really think Walton was a step forward? That's kind of the argument you're making if you think we've peaked with Fox, Buddy, Barnes, etc. You're effectively saying, "well, we tried to make this team better with Walton as coach, and it didn't work. Clearly the players are the problem" despite all of the data to the contrary.

Give this team a quality coach and see if they can't win.

Yes. This lineup is flawed, and the roster is unbalanced. But the guy at the front of the bench is the more important move going forward. And Buddy needs to be moved for a quality starting wing. That's an easy move to make.
 
NewArena said:
Let's not forget some of these big time Haliburton fans were just dragging him 3 weeks ago. If and when we trade Fox, im sure we'll find a way to rag on him and someone else all over again when things go wrong.
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As opposed to ragging on the big bad ownership?
 
sactowndog said:
You do realize the guy drafted in Boston’s spot Alpheren Sengun has played pretty well. 7th on the Kia Rookie ladder.

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-dec-29-2021

Not to mention the fact had we traded Harrison Barnes, we would have surely lost at least one more game. One more loss would have put us 8th and in the spot to grab Wagner who is the top of this Rookie ladder.

So you are right we should be kicking ourselves.

Center: Holmes, Len
PF: Sengun, Metu
SF: Wagner, Harkless, King
2 guard: Fox, Buddy
Point: Hali, Mitchell, Wright.

If that were our line-up I would be ecstatic.
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How would we still have Mitchell then?
 
Spike said:
He's not an all-star this year.

You keep mentioning weak signals, but you're avoiding the strongest of signals here. Simmons is not ready. If he is truly dealing with mental issues, we're not getting the player you think we are. If he's not dealing with them, then we're getting a different kind of head case.

Finally, there's no way I trade Fox this year. This organization has yet to show any shred of competency, why would we try and reset when we don't know who's driving the bus next year?
Who is coming in to coach the team next year? Gentry? You'll get more of what you saw this year. There's no way Simmons buys in to him. I don't even think he'd buy into someone like Christie - a new guy with (from an outsider's perspective) no history of coaching.

I think Kings fans are being disingenuous if they think we've competently tried to put a winning team on the floor with this crew. They showed growth and promise under Joerger. Do you really think Walton was a step forward? That's kind of the argument you're making if you think we've peaked with Fox, Buddy, Barnes, etc. You're effectively saying, "well, we tried to make this team better with Walton as coach, and it didn't work. Clearly the players are the problem" despite all of the data to the contrary.

Give this team a quality coach and see if they can't win.

Yes. This lineup is flawed, and the roster is unbalanced. But the guy at the front of the bench is the more important move going forward. And Buddy needs to be moved for a quality starting wing. That's an easy move to make.
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My argument is best summarized in this thread: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/trade-suggestion-fox-for-simmons-28.79959/

As TheJamal would say Talent Matters.
 
Spike said:
All the physical tools in the world won't matter if he's not ok between the ears. He's not a malcontent who is "playing his way through" until he's moved. What he's doing and asking for is about as big a red flag as you can have waved in front of your face.
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Physical tools and production like 3 time all star and all nba defense.
 
kb02 said:
My argument is best summarized in this thread: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/trade-suggestion-fox-for-simmons-28.79959/

As TheJamal would say Talent Matters.
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Talent matters in context. On paper, not in the real world, Simmons>Fox and it's not really close. But you can't ignore Simmons off-the-court problems and potentially career altering mental issues he's dealing with. Add in the fact that Philly has clearly backed themselves into a corner with his value around the league and it just doesn't make sense to pay near full price to acquire an incredibly volatile asset in Simmons.

Like I've said since that thread, if we can buy low, great, take the risk. But the Kings certainly are not in a position to trade their best asset they have team control over for the next 4 years on a hunch that Simmons comes back as the same player.
 
The_Jamal said:
Talent matters in context. On paper, not in the real world, Simmons>Fox and it's not really close. But you can't ignore Simmons off-the-court problems and potentially career altering mental issues he's dealing with. Add in the fact that Philly has clearly backed themselves into a corner with his value around the league and it just doesn't make sense to pay near full price to acquire an incredibly volatile asset in Simmons.

Like I've said since that thread, if we can buy low, great, take the risk. But the Kings certainly are not in a position to trade their best asset they have team control over for the next 4 years on a hunch that Simmons comes back as the same player.
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I agree with your post except I’m just not so sure the guy is better than Fox. I mean, coaching and teammates matter. They are not similar players skill wise. Each has their elite talents. If Embiid was on Sac with Fox, it would make a difference. Who has Fox’s most talented teammate been?
 
The_Jamal said:
Talent matters in context. On paper, not in the real world, Simmons>Fox and it's not really close. But you can't ignore Simmons off-the-court problems and potentially career altering mental issues he's dealing with. Add in the fact that Philly has clearly backed themselves into a corner with his value around the league and it just doesn't make sense to pay near full price to acquire an incredibly volatile asset in Simmons.

Like I've said since that thread, if we can buy low, great, take the risk. But the Kings certainly are not in a position to trade their best asset they have team control over for the next 4 years on a hunch that Simmons comes back as the same player.
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Not on paper. In reality. We’re those three time all star selections and the all defensive nod simulations? If so, how many all NBA teams has Fox made?
 
dude12 said:
I agree with your post except I’m just not so sure the guy is better than Fox. I mean, coaching and teammates matter. They are not similar players skill wise. Each has their elite talents. If Embiid was on Sac with Fox, it would make a difference. Who has Fox’s most talented teammate been?
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Hali, who is Batman to Simmons’ Robin.
 
The_Jamal said:
Talent matters in context. On paper, not in the real world, Simmons>Fox and it's not really close. But you can't ignore Simmons off-the-court problems and potentially career altering mental issues he's dealing with. Add in the fact that Philly has clearly backed themselves into a corner with his value around the league and it just doesn't make sense to pay near full price to acquire an incredibly volatile asset in Simmons.

Like I've said since that thread, if we can buy low, great, take the risk. But the Kings certainly are not in a position to trade their best asset they have team control over for the next 4 years on a hunch that Simmons comes back as the same player.
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BUt tHe TrAde MaCHiNe SayS itS PoSsiBlE
 
NewArena said:
Let's not forget some of these big time Haliburton fans were just dragging him 3 weeks ago. If and when we trade Fox, im sure we'll find a way to rag on him and someone else all over again when things go wrong.
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Yep. I remember a guy named Kevin Martin. It's like a repeat of history. I do like that they are actively attempting to get Haliburton comfortable coming off pick and roll though. Once he puts on about 20 pounds of muscle he could be a dangerous player.
 
The_Jamal said:
Why hasn't anyone traded for Simmons then? If he's such a hot commodity surely, someone would have offered something better than Fox by now no?
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Because Morey is as crazy as Simmons. Dude is asking for so much in return in a Simmons trade you’d think Ben is prime LeBron. Lots of teams are trying to get him but Daryl is like “Sure, give me your best player, three best prospects, four future 1sts (unprotected), the kitchen sink, and a partridge in a pear tree.”

For the record, I want us to stay away from Simmons either way. This team is already full of soft babies. We don’t need another one, no matter how talented.

I’m seeing a lot of Fox + Buddy + Bagley for Brown + filler from the Celtics talk out there on the web (speculation, not even rumors). I’d be all over that.
 
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ESP47 said:
I don't think they're a few tweaks away from contending. Bagley, Metu, Jones and Queta would be the worst frontcourt in the league by a landslide.

I agree that the point is to acquire talent but they consistently make the same mistake where they don't acquire enough talent and then try to make a run at it for 3-4 years with subpar talent and band aid veteran acquisitions.

They can't just let the team be bad so they can acquire more talent through the draft. Just allowing them to be bad last year could have easily gotten them into the Raptors position to select Scottie Barnes. Instead, they played the best players big minutes and continued to push for victories against basement dwelling teams when the playoffs were out of the question.

Smart teams let themselves lose when they aren't good and then make moves when they are sure they have the talent. The Kings do neither. They win when winning is detrimental to the franchise and then make moves well before they are sure they have enough talent to win. We're in the exact same situation as the Cousins era. We've got some good players, but not enough, and ride them to late lottery picks. Then load up on a new end of the bench rotational player cast and have another run at the late lottery because they never gave themselves a chance to draft a Mobley or Barnes. People will say they had a chance when they drafted Bagley. Ok well that didn't work out so do what you need to do to put yourself in that situation again so you have a chance at it this time.
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Okay then consider this: Damian Jones is 26. Fox, Davis, and Metu are 24. Mitchell is 23. Queta and Bagley are 22. Haliburton is 21. So your core may not be elite right now but the average age is 23 years old. They have a lot of room left to grow. And all I'm talking about is making the playoffs. If you can make the playoffs with a core that is 23 years old and nobody older than 26 you have a large window of opportunity to add to your core group. It's pretty rare that a team jumps from top of the lottery to contending without first losing a couple of playoff series. All we need to do to make the playoffs this season is finish with a .500 record. There's only 4 good teams in the West this year, finishing with a .500 or better record is not impossible -- we just need to find some consistency.

You're calling Queta/Jones/Metu/Bagley the worst frontcourt in the league but how can you even know that? Queta has played all of 4 minutes in his NBA career. Bagley has started less than a full season. Jones and Metu have played limited minutes. People were clowning me for calling Rudy Gobert elite in 2016. Since then he's won three DPOY awards. Nikola Jokic was drafted in the 2nd round and . If 15 years of losing has taught me anything it's that big name prospects frequently don't live up to the hype and big name free agents often end up being overpaid veterans who's effect on your salary cap outweighs their impact on the court.

And the truth is, the Western Conference is wide open right now with two teams at the top that are heavily reliant on a single star player (Golden State and Phoenix), a team which hasn't been able to advance past the Semifinals in the last 5 years (Utah) and Memphis team which is similar to ours, they just know how to play well together. If we were facing six or seven contending teams I would agree with you -- bottom out for star talent. That's been the story for most of the last decade but the bar has gotten a lot lower even without thinking about the play-in. Even a 6 seed is not out of the question. Our primary issue right now is not talent but fit. It's fixable. Especially in a world where most of the league still thinks the only way to win is to tank for top 5 picks.
 
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The_Jamal said:
Talent matters in context. On paper, not in the real world, Simmons>Fox and it's not really close. But you can't ignore Simmons off-the-court problems and potentially career altering mental issues he's dealing with. Add in the fact that Philly has clearly backed themselves into a corner with his value around the league and it just doesn't make sense to pay near full price to acquire an incredibly volatile asset in Simmons.

Like I've said since that thread, if we can buy low, great, take the risk. But the Kings certainly are not in a position to trade their best asset they have team control over for the next 4 years on a hunch that Simmons comes back as the same player.
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He has no mental issues he’s just trying to get paid while sitting it’s the Rich Paul way.
 
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