Blow It Up

[pdxKingsFan]

So finishing with 33 wins is better haha and what you described is what happened after colangelo and Brand did the absolute worst job possible when Hinkie. They keep Butler over harris like every person in the world would’ve done and they win the championship.

I'm not sure where I said 33 wins is better. But nailing our picks when that #2 falls in our lap and we don't suck today. Without a complete and total tank job. Same way Warriors who picked behind us routinely built their squad, or the Blazers who are a nice small market comp. They rebuilt twice since I moved here and maybe deliberately tanked one season?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

poverty franchise stays a poverty franchise for a reason. The owner doesn’t care/incompetent

I think he cares but I am not shying away from incompetent at this point.

 

[Groovygreg]

If your team goes on a run anytime Damian Jones is put in the game, you have problems.

Meaning you would like to see him get more playing time?

 

[gunks]

poverty franchise stays a poverty franchise for a reason. The owner doesn’t care/incompetent

I actually think Vivek does care.

…. makes how incompetent he is all the more frustrating!

 

[EIM86]

I think he cares but I am not shying away from incompetent at this point.

I agree and yah I just mentioned either/or/both for poverty franchises failings

 

[Groovygreg]

Sam "Cut down in his prime!" Hinkie getting unceremoniously fired and replaced by a Colangelo has only served to add to his mystique.

There's a weird sort of "But can you imagine how amazing things would have been in YEAR SEVEN of the process???" madness reserved only for doomsday cults and 19th century snake oil dealers surround a guy who only went 47-199 in his tenure as a GM, entirely because he made losing his entire brand.

I have no idea whether or not Hinkie's platonic ideal of the process would have worked out but thanks to him getting fired in the manner that he did (the NBA intervening in the name of competitive balance but really in the name of not cratering ratings in one of the biggest TV markets in America) and when he did (while Embiid was sitting out his second consecutive season and in the midst of a 10 win year), proponents will always claim that the revolution died in its infancy.

Good stuff.

 

[The_Jamal]

Sam "Cut down in his prime!" Hinkie getting unceremoniously fired and replaced by a Colangelo has only served to add to his mystique.

There's a weird sort of "But can you imagine how amazing things would have been in YEAR SEVEN of the process???" madness reserved only for doomsday cults and 19th century snake oil dealers surround a guy who only went 47-199 in his tenure as a GM, entirely because he made losing his entire brand.

I have no idea whether or not Hinkie's platonic ideal of the process would have worked out but thanks to him getting fired in the manner that he did (the NBA intervening in the name of competitive balance but really in the name of not cratering ratings in one of the biggest TV markets in America) and when he did (while Embiid was sitting out his second consecutive season and in the midst of a 10 win year), proponents will always claim that the revolution died in its infancy.

I mean... yeah?

The point is he left the Sixers with the greatest collection of assets ever. And yeah, we can't extrapolate if he could have ever finished off the job correctly, but it's safe to assume he would have been better than what his predecessors did, who fumbled those assets about as poorly as Vlade would have. And still, his groundwork have made the Sixers a top 7-10 (I mean, were the 1 seed last year for goodness sake), over the course of the last 4 years.

 

[hrdboild]

How is it disingenuous to say that Sam Hinkie left with guys like Richaun Holmes (37th pick), Jerami Grant (39th pick), Christian Wood (undrafted), & Robert Covington (undrafted) on the roster? Hinkie doesn't get any credit because the next GM moved them off the roster and they "broke out" a couple years later with a new team? That seems like a stretch. How do you know they wouldn't have broken out on PHI if they remained on the roster under Hinkie? How do you know they wouldn't have been even better had they stayed on PHI? How do you know Noel and/or Okafor wouldn't have been better had they stayed on PHI? Okay maybe not Okafor but hopefully you get my point.

I can accept the potential hypothetical that those guys maybe would have been worse had they stayed with PHI, but then you would have to accept the potential hypothetical that those guys maybe would have been better had they stayed with PHI. The point is, none of us really know how the future would have played out. There are a lot of what ifs & hypotheticals on both sides of this argument when attempting to dip into the future and project what would have been. My post attempted to stick to the facts which is to describe the roster and picks Hinkie had right up until he left. Nothing more, nothing less.


EDIT: Even if you would like to remove Grant, Wood, & Holmes entirely from the equation (although I disagree with that take), you're still left with a solid core of Embiid, Simmons, Covington, Saric, Noel, Okafor, 24th pick (2016), 26th pick (2016), 3rd pick (2017), & 2019 SAC 1st (Unprotected). It's difficult to fully grade the job he did because he didn't get a chance to finish what he started.

Because 3 years ago all three of those guys were NBA journeymen. You're cashing in on their current value to retroactively give credit to the team that drafted them and then gave them away. I suppose you could argue that Hinkie knew their value and would have held on to them longer but if you look at the way he churned through players, even that seems unlikely to me. Considering how well Noel and Okafor's tenures in Philly turned out, I think it's more likely they never break out on the Sixers at all -- especially when the team was building around Embiid.

We could similarly give the Kings credit for drafting Hassan Whiteside and Isaiah Thomas in the second round but both of them peaked on other teams. I feel like it goes without saying that any GM's goal shouldn't just be to draft quality NBA players but to draft them and have them succeed on your team not one of your competitors'. Sure a lot of this is speculation and if you were so inclined you could claim that Colangelo is the one who ruined the rebuild and Hinkie would have managed those assets better but then you're just assuming your own conclusion. All we know for sure is that did happen and what did happen is that Sam Hinkie made an unprecedented effort to lose on purpose and stockpile draft picks and the results were not overwhelmingly positive.

And in the context of our current situation, I don't know if people who want a complete rebuild appreciate how long it's going to take. We started our current rebuild in 2005 and aside from a few brief moments where it felt like the team was starting to gel, it's basically been one long continuous rebuild for that entire time. The Kings have had a #2 pick, a #4 pick, three #5 picks, a #6 pick, two #7 picks, and two #8 picks. And we're completely rudderless because we have no leadership. So I continue to argue that all of this rebuilding discussion is pointless until/unless we find a quality coach to lead the team. That needs to be the priority. And quality coaches usually don't want to step into a situation where winning 10-20 games is the expectation.

 

[Spike]

Sam "Cut down in his prime!" Hinkie getting unceremoniously fired and replaced by a Colangelo has only served to add to his mystique.

There's a weird sort of "But can you imagine how amazing things would have been in YEAR SEVEN of the process???" madness reserved only for doomsday cults and 19th century snake oil dealers surround a guy who only went 47-199 in his tenure as a GM, entirely because he made losing his entire brand.

I have no idea whether or not Hinkie's platonic ideal of the process would have worked out but thanks to him getting fired in the manner that he did (the NBA intervening in the name of competitive balance but really in the name of not cratering ratings in one of the biggest TV markets in America) and when he did (while Embiid was sitting out his second consecutive season and in the midst of a 10 win year), proponents will always claim that the revolution died in its infancy.

The revolution was, unfortunately, televised.

 

[twslam07]

Because 3 years ago all three of those guys were NBA journeymen. You're cashing in on their current value to retroactively give credit to the team that drafted them and then gave them away. I suppose you could argue that Hinkie knew their value and would have held on to them longer but if you look at the way he churned through players, even that seems unlikely to me. Considering how well Noel and Okafor's tenures in Philly turned out, I think it's more likely they never break out on the Sixers at all -- especially when the team was building around Embiid.

We could similarly give the Kings credit for drafting Hassan Whiteside and Isaiah Thomas in the second round but both of them peaked on other teams. I feel like it goes without saying that any GM's goal shouldn't just be to draft quality NBA players but to draft them and have them succeed on your team not one of your competitors'. Sure a lot of this is speculation and if you were so inclined you could claim that Colangelo is the one who ruined the rebuild and Hinkie would have managed those assets better but then you're just assuming your own conclusion. All we know for sure is that did happen and what did happen is that Sam Hinkie made an unprecedented effort to lose on purpose and stockpile draft picks and the results were not overwhelmingly positive.

And in the context of our current situation, I don't know if people who want a complete rebuild appreciate how long it's going to take. We started our current rebuild in 2005 and aside from a few brief moments where it felt like the team was starting to gel, it's basically been one long continuous rebuild for that entire time. The Kings have had a #2 pick, a #4 pick, three #5 picks, a #6 pick, two #7 picks, and two #8 picks. And we're completely rudderless because we have no leadership. So I continue to argue that all of this rebuilding discussion is pointless until/unless we find a quality coach to lead the team. That needs to be the priority. And quality coaches usually don't want to step into a situation where winning 10-20 games is the expectation.

I'm neither "cashing in" nor am I "not cashing in" as doing either would be going down that "assumption road." However, it appears that you yourself have chosen to go down that road in the way of "not cashing in."

My point is that you are making a lot of assumptions to back your point vs. I simply shared what he left the 76ers before he was pushed out. Somehow you interpreted that as me "cashing in" on Holmes, Wood, Grant, etc. If that was the case, why would I have listed Noel & Okafor?

I think it's foolish to not give any credit to a GM for drafting players that panned out well on another team just like I think it's foolish to give 100% of the credit to a GM for drafting players that panned out well on another team. There is a middle ground here, but going off your post, I'm not so sure you agree.

 

[Albatros]

I actually think Vivek does care.

…. makes how incompetent he is all the more frustrating!

I don't think he cares about basketball.

He never says anything about the team. He just likes using the letterhead to make statements.

 

[New Era]

I don't think he cares about basketball.

He never says anything about the team. He just likes using the letterhead to make statements.

And he loves taking pics with famous people, and doing the "Shaka." I knew as soon as I saw that years ago we were completely screwed.

 

[AMR42700]

I actually think Vivek does care.

…. makes how incompetent he is all the more frustrating!

He cares. He just thinks "his way" is the "right way." "His way" needs to be letting basketball minds makr basketball decisions. No interference. No hiring coaches before GM's or vice versa.

 

[AMR42700]

Because 3 years ago all three of those guys were NBA journeymen. You're cashing in on their current value to retroactively give credit to the team that drafted them and then gave them away. I suppose you could argue that Hinkie knew their value and would have held on to them longer but if you look at the way he churned through players, even that seems unlikely to me. Considering how well Noel and Okafor's tenures in Philly turned out, I think it's more likely they never break out on the Sixers at all -- especially when the team was building around Embiid.

We could similarly give the Kings credit for drafting Hassan Whiteside and Isaiah Thomas in the second round but both of them peaked on other teams. I feel like it goes without saying that any GM's goal shouldn't just be to draft quality NBA players but to draft them and have them succeed on your team not one of your competitors'. Sure a lot of this is speculation and if you were so inclined you could claim that Colangelo is the one who ruined the rebuild and Hinkie would have managed those assets better but then you're just assuming your own conclusion. All we know for sure is that did happen and what did happen is that Sam Hinkie made an unprecedented effort to lose on purpose and stockpile draft picks and the results were not overwhelmingly positive.

And in the context of our current situation, I don't know if people who want a complete rebuild appreciate how long it's going to take. We started our current rebuild in 2005 and aside from a few brief moments where it felt like the team was starting to gel, it's basically been one long continuous rebuild for that entire time. The Kings have had a #2 pick, a #4 pick, three #5 picks, a #6 pick, two #7 picks, and two #8 picks. And we're completely rudderless because we have no leadership. So I continue to argue that all of this rebuilding discussion is pointless until/unless we find a quality coach to lead the team. That needs to be the priority. And quality coaches usually don't want to step into a situation where winning 10-20 games is the expectation.

Kenny Atkinson would be great.

 

[sactowndog]

He needs to do something big. 2nd round pick for some unknown players won't save him.

he had his chance last year in a draft filled with wings. It didn’t happen. Reasonably you can can blame Vivek but at the end of the day Monte has to put his foot down and do his job.

the only good thing about this year is Vivek will get a record he richly deserves. I wonder how much Ainge would charge to come in and take over.

 

[SacTownKid]

he had his chance last year in a draft filled with wings. It didn’t happen. Reasonably you can can blame Vivek but at the end of the day Monte has to put his foot down and do his job.

the only good thing about this year is Vivek will get a record he richly deserves. I wonder how much Ainge would charge to come in and take over.

When you've fiddled away nearly a decade after wandering off in the wrong direction, perhaps it's best to start back at the beginning. Partial ownership now will have a lot more value and yes, you deserve the pounding you're going to get in the negotiations Vivek.

https://www.si.com/si-wire/2013/06/05/larry-bird-kings-president

 

[Kingster]

When you've fiddled away nearly a decade after wandering off in the wrong direction, perhaps it's best to start back at the beginning. Partial ownership now will have a lot more value and yes, you deserve the pounding you're going to get in the negotiations Vivek.

https://www.si.com/si-wire/2013/06/05/larry-bird-kings-president

The NBA needs to take away his control by an emergency meeting of the Board of Governors, who promptly place this team under a conservatorship, taking the keys away from Vivek for the arena, the practice facility, and the porta potties that may be on the premises.

 

[Tetsujin]

The NBA needs to take away his control by an emergency meeting of the Board of Governors, who promptly place this team under a conservatorship, taking the keys away from Vivek for the arena, the practice facility, and the porta potties that may be on the premises.

If they haven't done it for Dolan or Sarver, what makes you think they'd do it for an owner who isn't a horrible human being?

 

[sactowndog]

If they haven't done it for Dolan or Sarver, what makes you think they'd do it for an owner who isn't a horrible human being?

Interesting question… would you trade Vivek for Sarver who is a horrible person?

 

[macadocious]

Hey @sactowndog what are your thoughts on our wing situation?

 

[Tetsujin]

Interesting question… would you trade Vivek for Sarver who is a horrible person?

Heeeeeeeell no

 

[Kingster]

If they haven't done it for Dolan or Sarver, what makes you think they'd do it for an owner who isn't a horrible human being?

I didn't say that I'm predicting such a thing. I'm saying what they should do if justice was served.

 

[Dongoodboy]

We are 3 wins better than a completely rebuilding Houston team, and we don’t have the prospect like they do. We are at the lowest point now since Vlade era, unless there is worse coming

 

[SLAB]

We are 3 wins better than a completely rebuilding Houston team, and we don’t have the prospect like they do. We are at the lowest point now since Vlade era, unless there is worse coming

McNair’s going to pick Bryce McGowans at 3.

 

[SacTownKid]

Heeeeeeeell no

And in fairness, some of us don't believe Vivek is some evil mastermind of bad basketball, he's likely just trusting the wrong people. And creating an office that has no real structure. That can be solved by someone with a brain, a track record, and full control.

 

[Tetsujin]

And in fairness, some of us don't believe Vivek is some evil mastermind of bad basketball, he's likely just trusting the wrong people. And creating an office that has no real structure. That can be solved by someone with a brain, a track record, and full control.

This. While I think Vivek is utterly unqualified to control this franchise’s basketball decisions, I also am confident that he is making honest mistakes for the right reasons and not maliciously doing dumb things because he’s the villain from an 1990s Adam Sandler comedy.
If he just bothered hiring a GM and coach at the same time for once or at least gave his GM the ability to get the guy he wants right off the bat, so much of this could have been avoided. It’s a simple stupid mistake he’s made time after time even though he should know better by now but it’s also not a reported scheme to have strippers get impregnated by future free agents in order to get them to sign with the Suns.

 

[Tetsujin]

McNair’s going to pick Bryce McGowans at 3.

Lord knows Vlade would have. As is, 3 nets you one of Banchero, Smith, or Holmgren who are to me by far the top three players in this year’s draft class and all worthy of going number one. The Kings passing on one of those guys to, I dunno, pick up Patrick Baldwin (who I think is going to be a solid player at least) would be a total Superteam just young move.

not that I think we’ll be picking top three this year.

 

[24 rick barry]

Even with an all out, sell everything tank the highest we're likely to get in the lottery is 7th. So we would have nothing and a 7th overall pick and multiple seasons of unwatchable basketball to look forward to. That's fools gold.

If you tank, then the best you can obtain is 7th overall pick??? Where do you get this?

Do you like watching the Kings now. Shooting for 10th place...one game ahead of the bottom third of the league. And what is the upside with this team?

 

[EIM86]

Because 3 years ago all three of those guys were NBA journeymen. You're cashing in on their current value to retroactively give credit to the team that drafted them and then gave them away. I suppose you could argue that Hinkie knew their value and would have held on to them longer but if you look at the way he churned through players, even that seems unlikely to me. Considering how well Noel and Okafor's tenures in Philly turned out, I think it's more likely they never break out on the Sixers at all -- especially when the team was building around Embiid.

We could similarly give the Kings credit for drafting Hassan Whiteside and Isaiah Thomas in the second round but both of them peaked on other teams. I feel like it goes without saying that any GM's goal shouldn't just be to draft quality NBA players but to draft them and have them succeed on your team not one of your competitors'. Sure a lot of this is speculation and if you were so inclined you could claim that Colangelo is the one who ruined the rebuild and Hinkie would have managed those assets better but then you're just assuming your own conclusion. All we know for sure is that did happen and what did happen is that Sam Hinkie made an unprecedented effort to lose on purpose and stockpile draft picks and the results were not overwhelmingly positive.

And in the context of our current situation, I don't know if people who want a complete rebuild appreciate how long it's going to take. We started our current rebuild in 2005 and aside from a few brief moments where it felt like the team was starting to gel, it's basically been one long continuous rebuild for that entire time. The Kings have had a #2 pick, a #4 pick, three #5 picks, a #6 pick, two #7 picks, and two #8 picks. And we're completely rudderless because we have no leadership. So I continue to argue that all of this rebuilding discussion is pointless until/unless we find a quality coach to lead the team. That needs to be the priority. And quality coaches usually don't want to step into a situation where winning 10-20 games is the expectation.

id go even farther up the ladder and go with we need a competent owner first that will not meddle and just sign the checks

 

[twslam07]

he had his chance last year in a draft filled with wings. It didn’t happen. Reasonably you can can blame Vivek but at the end of the day Monte has to put his foot down and do his job.

the only good thing about this year is Vivek will get a record he richly deserves. I wonder how much Ainge would charge to come in and take over.

I had Moody as the pick if it was up to me. He hasn’t been great to start the year but to be fair he’s only played ~90 minutes with guys like Poole, Wiggins, Iguodala, Porter, and Kuminga competing for minutes.

Meanwhile, our 23 year old Mitchell (Moody is 19) has logged ~700 minutes and is shooting 39% from the floor, 31% from 3, & 67% from the line with an abysmal 47% TS%. His defense is solid but I question how effective he can really be on that side of the ball with his below average height and length 6’0” barefoot with a 6’4.25” wingspan & 8’0.5” standing reach). People compare him to Marcus Smart but I’m not sure people realize that Smart is quite larger and longer (6’2” barefoot with a 6’9.25” wingspan & 8’3” standing reach).

If he’s…

• not the elite, versatile defender that Smart is
• not a good shooter
• not a good scorer
• 23 years old

…then how valuable is that player at the end of the day?