Ben should ask for a trade

[Livinthedream]

A factor you aren't considering is that 2nd/3rd year Peja played on a veteran heavy team that happen to be one of the best passing teams in recent memory. Peja got the ball a lot more than Ben does now and in spots where he could be most successful. That doesn't happen much for Ben in this offense.

Ben likely would have flourished playing with the same team Peja did. Lots of dunks, layups and open 3's.

I want to "like" this 10 more times. It's not just Ben. Everyone outside of Cousins, Gay and Collison could benefit from more passing.

 

[206Fan]

Ben isn't in the best of positions for developing. He plays with ball dominate players who aren't good play makers.
Rudy-not a playmaker, but he's just a willing passer. He forces a lot of passes, despite being more of a Carmelo type of player rather than KD(Passing/play making ability). Unless he gets the ball near the 3pt line, anywhere else, he goes for his isos.

Cousins-less of a playmaker compared to Rudy, but is a good passer for a big man. Another iso/post up player that will occasionally to an open man

Collison- decent playmaker who's also a decent passer, probably more of a willing passer for a PG.

Ben is still an unknown type of player right now. The only real touches he gets on offense are catch and shoots aside from 2-3 plays where he gets to actually handle the ball. I think our offense limits him in a lot of ways. 1) We don't get to see what he may or may not be capable of. 2) Lack of passing around the perimeter. 3) he's the 4th scoring option. 4) He sees very little of the ball

I think there are counter arguments about him being in a good position since we are bringing him up slowly, but I don't think he benefits from just being a 3&D guy on a poor passing team. It's one thing to be a 3&D player on the Warriors, and another thing to be a 3&D player on the Kings.

I don't think Ben should ask for a trade.. I think he just needs to ask his teammates pass him the ball a little more often. More plays ran for him wouldn't hurt either.

I think the Kings would benefit a ton from a good pass first PG like Rubio or Rondo. Not enough passing nor shot creating on this team. The team doesn't only compose of Cousins and Gay. Plus, think about all of the easy dunks Cuz could get if his teammates could actually give him the ball at a great position.

 

[Prince_XY]

I want to "like" this 10 more times. It's not just Ben. Everyone outside of Cousins, Gay and Collison could benefit from more passing.

This would certainly anger the fans who think we should play inside the paint with Cousins and/or give the ball to Gay most of the time. Increasing the pace to get more players involved in offense is certainly a NO for some fans here.

 

[mac]

This would certainly anger the fans who think we should play inside the paint with Cousins and/or give the ball to Gay most of the time. Increasing the pace to get more players involved in offense is certainly a NO for some fans here.

Ok I'll bite. What are the teams you automatically think of when talking about ball movement? Spurs and Hawks right? Now tell me where they rank in terms of pace.

 

[Prince_XY]

Ok I'll bite. What are the teams you automatically think of when talking about ball movement? Spurs and Hawks right? Now tell me where they rank in terms of pace.

How about this team:

Pace.

The first 6 minutes of this video has more excitement than any of the games after Malone's firing combined.

( I would recommend watching this entire video to make you feel good)

 

[Livinthedream]

Ben isn't in the best of positions for developing. He plays with ball dominate players who aren't good play makers.
Rudy-not a playmaker, but he's just a willing passer. He forces a lot of passes, despite being more of a Carmelo type of player rather than KD(Passing/play making ability). Unless he gets the ball near the 3pt line, anywhere else, he goes for his isos.

Cousins-less of a playmaker compared to Rudy, but is a good passer for a big man. Another iso/post up player that will occasionally to an open man

Collison- decent playmaker who's also a decent passer, probably more of a willing passer for a PG.

Ben is still an unknown type of player right now. The only real touches he gets on offense are catch and shoots aside from 2-3 plays where he gets to actually handle the ball. I think our offense limits him in a lot of ways. 1) We don't get to see what he may or may not be capable of. 2) Lack of passing around the perimeter. 3) he's the 4th scoring option. 4) He sees very little of the ball

I think there are counter arguments about him being in a good position since we are bringing him up slowly, but I don't think he benefits from just being a 3&D guy on a poor passing team. It's one thing to be a 3&D player on the Warriors, and another thing to be a 3&D player on the Kings.

I don't think Ben should ask for a trade.. I think he just needs to ask his teammates pass him the ball a little more often. More plays ran for him wouldn't hurt either.

I think the Kings would benefit a ton from a good pass first PG like Rubio or Rondo. Not enough passing nor shot creating on this team. The team doesn't only compose of Cousins and Gay. Plus, think about all of the easy dunks Cuz could get if his teammates could actually give him the ball at a great position.

I think it's lost on a lot of people that Ben's best games are when Cousins or Gay is out. Or both. Ben takes more shots and works himself into a rhythm.

I think limiting him to a 3 and D guy is a waste of his potential. He can be more. But only with enough touches. Don't know if that will ever happen here.

 

[Livinthedream]

This would certainly anger the fans who think we should play inside the paint with Cousins and/or give the ball to Gay most of the time. Increasing the pace to get more players involved in offense is certainly a NO for some fans here.

If the FO had simply said we need to pass more, nobody would argue. If a byproduct of passing is pace, then that's great.

 

[Spike]

I think it's lost on a lot of people that Ben's best games are when Cousins or Gay is out. Or both. Ben takes more shots and works himself into a rhythm.

I think limiting him to a 3 and D guy is a waste of his potential. He can be more. But only with enough touches. Don't know if that will ever happen here.

Really? He looked much better at the start of the year, even with Cousins and Gay. I wonder what happened?

 

[upinsmoke]

I think it's lost on a lot of people that Ben's best games are when Cousins or Gay is out. Or both. Ben takes more shots and works himself into a rhythm.

I think limiting him to a 3 and D guy is a waste of his potential. He can be more. But only with enough touches. Don't know if that will ever happen here.

I liked his game vs the Lakers he pestered Kobe, spread the floor hitting his 3's and got easy buckets off the break. Definitely a keeper unless a. I Brainer trade presents itself.

 

[Livinthedream]

Really? He looked much better at the start of the year, even with Cousins and Gay. I wonder what happened?

PDA happened.

My point being, he's not as effective waiting in the corner for his 4 or 5 shots a game. Some guys are great in that role. I don't think Ben is. I don't have a solution because the team is not going run the offense around his needs.

 

[SCKingsfan]

I think maybe we are giving Ben too much credit here. Yes, he's had better and worse games, and at times he seems to do well when he gets in a rhythm, but he's been inconsistent more than anything, even as he's shown improvement this year. So unless he shows he can take over a game, or even really have any kind of dominating performance when the team needs it and can count on him to be a difference maker, then I don't think he will inspire the confidence necessary to see the ball more often. There have been moments when he's been let off the leash a bit this year, and he has yet to turn the opportunity into a confidence inspiring performance. This is not to say he shouldn't be groomed to become a more central part of the offense, just to say that he hasn't necessarily earned it as of yet, and I think there have been moments when he's been given some freer reign, and he hasn't shown yet he can do a whole lot with it

 

[upinsmoke]

I think maybe we are giving Ben too much credit here. yes, he's had better and worse games, and at times he seems to do well when he gets in a rhythm. but, he's been inconsistent more than anything, even as he's shown improvement this year, so unless he shows he can take over a game, or even really have any kind dominating performance when the team needs it and can count on him to be a difference maker, then I don't think he will inspire the confidence necessary to see the ball more often. there have been moments when he's been let off the leash a bit this year, and he has yet to turn it into a confidence inspiring performance. this is not to say he shouldn't be groomed to become a more central part of the offense, just to say that he hasn't necessarily earned it as of yet, and I think there have been moments when its been given some freer reign, and he hasn't shown yet he can do a whole lot with it

Mainly the OP. Most people realize he's likely a career role player.

 

[IfAt1st]

Ben hasn't proven crap in this league yet.

This would certainly anger the fans who think we should play inside the paint with Cousins and/or give the ball to Gay most of the time. Increasing the pace to get more players involved in offense is certainly a NO for some fans here.

Unlike the front office, the fans don't care too much about the particulars of the game, as long as the team is winning or being competitive. I didn't remember hearing any fans complaining about pace, or Ben's touches, when the team was playing well.

God - that still pisses me off every time it comes up - the front office actually cared about style and pace more than winning!
The fans actually care about winning more than the front office! It's unbelievable to me....

 

[gman23]

Here's a question for you. Purely hypothetical of course. How much better do you think Ben would be in this his second year, if he were playing on the same team with Webber, Vlade, Bibby, and Peja? It was a group of guys that really shared the ball. Just asking...[/quote]


There lies the question of the day...SHARING the damm ball?

 

[206Fan]

Mainly the OP. Most people realize he's likely a career role player.

I don't believe Ben is a career role player. He has the ability to do much more if he improves on his overall game. Everyone said Butler was just a role player who doesn't know how to shoot...he's had an amazing breakout year and improved on all aspects of his game. I think Ben can do the same.

Andrew Wiggins is a player who looked like a role player type of player earlier in the season when all he did was catch and shoot. Lately they've been letting him handle the ball and drive. He's looking pretty great right now.mlike Ben, Wiggins struggles with ball handling, but he makes up for it in another ways.

Being a role player on the Kings is different then being on a role player on the Warriors. We're a selfish team that passes every now and then. Give Ben a little more bigger role and let's see how he performs

 

[Prince_XY]

If the FO had simply said we need to pass more, nobody would argue. If a byproduct of passing is pace, then that's great.

I know and I agree most fans got confused about what the FO wants when they say they want increase pace.

But what fans did not realize (however smart they are) is that the increase pace that the FO is referring will result to more passing and utilization of players talent, especially that the FO were clearly talking about positionless basketball and specifically referred to the glorious old Kings basketball brand of play (and not the Warriors or Phoenix Suns team) One of the fans here (LPKingsfan) I think correctly stated that the Kings had heavily relied on iso-plays and Cousins play inside the paint that IMO makes us so predictable in offense. Actually, there were games when the opposing team went to zone defense we can hardly make any points.

IMO, the FO was right about increasing the pace. We are already good on iso-plays and inside plays (starring Cousins and Gay), but this is not enough offense if we want to win more games. We need more versatility in offense and increasing the pace may provide us with some.

 

[Bricklayer]

A factor you aren't considering is that 2nd/3rd year Peja played on a veteran heavy team that happen to be one of the best passing teams in recent memory. Peja got the ball a lot more than Ben does now and in spots where he could be most successful. That doesn't happen much for Ben in this offense.

Ben likely would have flourished playing with the same team Peja did. Lots of dunks, layups and open 3's.

If you're trying to say that Peja really wasn't that great, doesn't really deserve a jersey in those rafters, and was made what he was by the greatness of his teammates who made life easy for him...I'm not the guy to argue with you.

Ben does indeed have similarities. He doesn't have talent with the ball, a problem in a game that is played with a ball. So his game will rise and fall according to how easy everybody from the players to the coaches make it for him.

 

[Bricklayer]

I want to "like" this 10 more times. It's not just Ben. Everyone outside of Cousins, Gay and Collison could benefit from more passing.

And those guys would benefit if any of their other teammates passed better than a high schooler.

We constructed a horrible passing lineup, and then are surprised when it can't pass?

I'm going to give a rough estimate of how how well our guys are as passers/creaters for others, relative to their position, on a 10 scale.

We have:

Cousins 7/10 = one of the most skilled center passers, but asked to do too much, and resulting in so many turnovers
Thompson 4/10 = he can pass. His skills are ok. He rarely does, and can;t handle.
Gay 5/10 = maybe a 3 or 4 before arriving here. Middling passer, and not very willing. He's tried more this year though/
Ben 3/10 = still a poor ballhandler, but able to make a nice pass occasionally when it set up cleanly
Collison 5/10 = mediocre creative PG. Not horrendously selfish, just does not create many easy shots.

Landry 2/10 = notorious black hole
Williams 2/10 = if it weren't for the passes on the break to Ben it might be a 1 if you call him a SF. As a PF rates slightly better.
Stauskas 4/10 = and I'm being kind with that 4, based more on summer league/college potential than anything he's done as a pro.
Evans 3/10 = obviously not a passer or handler, but smart enough to every once in a while make a nice pass
Sessions 3/10 = probably some ok skills, but always essentially a gunner, and has been horribly shaky with the ball this year
McCallum 4/10 being kind here. Essentially looks for his own, does not create many easy shots. A nice pass occasioanlly.
Hollins 1/10 = simply not part of his game at all

There, that's our wonderful passing team. And gee what a shocker it hasn't matched our golden era teams, when we probably had there or four guys who would have been 8/10, 9/10, even 10/10, and then a bunch of supplementary personnel. Not matter what the scheme is, we are as far from a pass happy bunch as you could assemble even if you tried.

 

[sdballer]

And those guys would benefit if any of their other teammates passed better than a high schooler.

We constructed a horrible passing lineup, and then are surprised when it can't pass?

I'm going to give a rough estimate of how how well our guys are as passers/creaters for others, relative to their position, on a 10 scale.

We have:

Cousins 7/10 = one of the most skilled center passers, but asked to do too much, and resulting in so many turnovers
Thompson 4/10 = he can pass. His skills are ok. He rarely does, and can;t handle.
Gay 5/10 = maybe a 3 or 4 before arriving here. Middling passer, and not very willing. He's tried more this year though/
Ben 3/10 = still a poor ballhandler, but able to make a nice pass occasionally when it set up cleanly
Collison 5/10 = mediocre creative PG. Not horrendously selfish, just does not create many easy shots.

Landry 2/10 = notorious black hole
Williams 2/10 = if it weren't for the passes on the break to Ben it might be a 1 if you call him a SF. As a PF rates slightly better.
Stauskas 4/10 = and I'm being kind with that 4, based more on summer league/college potential than anything he's done as a pro.
Evans 3/10 = obviously not a passer or handler, but smart enough to every once in a while make a nice pass
Sessions 3/10 = probably some ok skills, but always essentially a gunner, and has been horribly shaky with the ball this year
McCallum 4/10 being kind here. Essentially looks for his own, does not create many easy shots. A nice pass occasioanlly.
Hollins 1/10 = simply not part of his game at all

There, that's our wonderful passing team. And gee what a shocker it hasn't matched our golden era teams, when we probably had there or four guys who would have been 8/10, 9/10, even 10/10, and then a bunch of supplementary personnel. Not matter what the scheme is, we are as far from a pass happy bunch as you could assemble even if you tried.

Which is why I've been so critical of PDAs roster construction. His desire is to create a team that can run, pass and shoot yet our skill sets don't match that goal. They were closer to matching Malone's style yet he fired him for not being able to switch to a style the roster he built wasn't equipped to play.

 

[206Fan]

Which is why I've been so critical of PDAs roster construction. His desire is to create a team that can run, pass and shoot yet our skill sets don't match that goal. They were closer to matching Malone's style yet he fired him for not being able to switch to a style the roster he built wasn't equipped to play.

The player who creates the biggest hole in the concepts you've just listed is probably Rudy. I actually think Cousins could run up and down the floor with passing and shooting if he's surrounded by players who can both run. pass, and shoot. Gay is a halfcourt iso player who slows everything down.

The only way we build that vision of Pete's is if we trade Rudy. I don't know how likely this is.. but it would make sense if they continue to push the pace concept. They'd probably have to upgrade the PG position too

 

[Glenn]

The player who creates the biggest hole in the concepts you've just listed is probably Rudy. I actually think Cousins could run up and down the floor with passing and shooting if he's surrounded by players who can both run. pass, and shoot. Gay is a halfcourt iso player who slows everything down.

The only way we build that vision of Pete's is if we trade Rudy. I don't know how likely this is.. but it would make sense if they continue to push the pace concept. They'd probably have to upgrade the PG position too

I have said this many times: you don't change the players to fit a predetermined style. You build an offense to fit the players. I wish PDA agreed with me.

 

[206Fan]

I have said this many times: you don't change the players to fit a predetermined style. You build an offense to fit the players. I wish PDA agreed with me.

I agree with this 100%, but it wouldn't hurt this team if we added more players who can actually pass/share the ball

 

[Glenn]

I agree with this 100%, but it wouldn't hurt this team if we added more players who can actually pass/share the ball

Can't disagree. Add in some three pt. shooters and a rim protector. Actually, with a good head coach we aren't that far away from having a very good team. We have the two basics in Cuz and Gay, Batman and Robin. The rest don't need to be superstars. Look at how Collisen fit in.

 

[Livinthedream]

And those guys would benefit if any of their other teammates passed better than a high schooler.

We constructed a horrible passing lineup, and then are surprised when it can't pass?

I'm going to give a rough estimate of how how well our guys are as passers/creaters for others, relative to their position, on a 10 scale.

We have:

Cousins 7/10 = one of the most skilled center passers, but asked to do too much, and resulting in so many turnovers
Thompson 4/10 = he can pass. His skills are ok. He rarely does, and can;t handle.
Gay 5/10 = maybe a 3 or 4 before arriving here. Middling passer, and not very willing. He's tried more this year though/
Ben 3/10 = still a poor ballhandler, but able to make a nice pass occasionally when it set up cleanly
Collison 5/10 = mediocre creative PG. Not horrendously selfish, just does not create many easy shots.

Landry 2/10 = notorious black hole
Williams 2/10 = if it weren't for the passes on the break to Ben it might be a 1 if you call him a SF. As a PF rates slightly better.
Stauskas 4/10 = and I'm being kind with that 4, based more on summer league/college potential than anything he's done as a pro.
Evans 3/10 = obviously not a passer or handler, but smart enough to every once in a while make a nice pass
Sessions 3/10 = probably some ok skills, but always essentially a gunner, and has been horribly shaky with the ball this year
McCallum 4/10 being kind here. Essentially looks for his own, does not create many easy shots. A nice pass occasioanlly.
Hollins 1/10 = simply not part of his game at all

There, that's our wonderful passing team. And gee what a shocker it hasn't matched our golden era teams, when we probably had there or four guys who would have been 8/10, 9/10, even 10/10, and then a bunch of supplementary personnel. Not matter what the scheme is, we are as far from a pass happy bunch as you could assemble even if you tried.

Agree with the assessment. It is a team made up of sub par passers. Playing faster actually exacerbates the problem.

 

[Prince_XY]

Which is why I've been so critical of PDAs roster construction. His desire is to create a team that can run, pass and shoot yet our skill sets don't match that goal. They were closer to matching Malone's style yet he fired him for not being able to switch to a style the roster he built wasn't equipped to play.

I think you are right, but I am still hopeful it is still possible for this current roster to be a good passing team, especially IF the core of Cousins (Webber-like), JT, Gay, and Collison (who knows more or less the fundamental of passing) commit to it. Among the starters, only Ben probably cannot make a good pass/play because he is just too raw. The rest of the team possibly will learn from the core players. It may be a long process for this team to learn to be a passing team, or probably we have to trade for one to two players who are known good passers, but either way it is doable with a little bit of luck especially on free-agency.

 

[rainmaker]

Can't disagree. Add in some three pt. shooters and a rim protector. Actually, with a good head coach we aren't that far away from having a very good team. We have the two basics in Cuz and Gay, Batman and Robin. The rest don't need to be superstars. Look at how Collisen fit in.

While I agree with your premise, I'm not as high on DC as most here. I'd be looking to move him. If he's our starting PG next season that's a failure in my eyes. Need a better defender, a better 3pt threat at PG next to Rudy/Cuz and a PG who can penetrate when needed. None of that describes DC.

As an aside, I can't believe this is a thread. Ben demand a trade? There's something called clout and Ben doesn't have nearly enough of it to demand anything of the like.

 

[upinsmoke]

While I agree with your premise, I'm not as high on DC as most here. I'd be looking to move him. If he's our starting PG next season that's a failure in my eyes. Need a better defender, a better 3pt threat at PG next to Rudy/Cuz and a PG who can penetrate when needed. None of that describes DC.

I wouldn't go that far but I do think our PG situation is still unsettled. Collison as I refuse to use the "DC" nickname on him is a good player BUT if we can make him the reserve guard that would in my opinion would be ideal.

 

[206Fan]

Welp. 1st half quarter Ben goes like 4/5 for 13 pts. Ends up the game with 6/9 shooting for 18pts.

Talk about being ignored. Not to mention he played 40 minutes.

Too many wasted possessions tonight because of guys trying to get their game going while ignoring the guy with the hot hand...Ben

 

[SacTownKid]

Kings fans should ask for a trade.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If you're trying to say that Peja really wasn't that great, doesn't really deserve a jersey in those rafters, and was made what he was by the greatness of his teammates who made life easy for him...I'm not the guy to argue with you.

Ben does indeed have similarities. He doesn't have talent with the ball, a problem in a game that is played with a ball. So his game will rise and fall according to how easy everybody from the players to the coaches make it for him.

I actually didn't intend to go there regarding Peja, but we do agree on that one. He was a fantastic shooter - one of the best in recent memory - that knew how to move without the ball and where to get his shots. Most of all, he had teammates that were willing and adept at getting him the ball. But, as I said back when it was announced, I do not believe his game warranted jersey retirement. Not even close.

Ben could be a smaller, far more athletic version of Peja that plays good-to-great defense. The offensive part of his game, though, will ultimately be determined by the players that surround him. Cousins is the perfect low post player that can get Ben lots of open looks out of the double team, but he's lacking other teammates willing to move the ball for the best shot possible (Ben himself is a willing passer).

If Ben ever finds himself on a team that passes like our old Kings or like the Spurs, Warriors, etc of today - he could be as valuable or more than Peja was.