Being serious, whats deal with KT

[keflanag]

i dont think that its kenny thomas, its the fact that we still have kenny thomas... you should look at the archives, when he first got here people loved him. they wanted him to play sf and thought that he could be 6th man of the year when we got rahim... he's our 2nd longest tenured king after martin. he shouldnt still be on this team... he was traded for as a movable piece(i love that term, petrie knocked it out of the park with that one) not our 2nd highest paid but least played player.

he's been here so long that his contract was from the previous cba... when we traded webber for kenny, g.w. bush had just given his inaugural address to begin his 2nd term a month before the trade. by the time he is gone, obama wouldve been president for over a year....

The "movable pieces" reasoning Petrie gave was a load of crap. We know it, he knows it. But what is Petrie supposed to say? "We are getting rid of one of our Franchise heroes because 1) He has a bum knee and his career is basically over. 2) We hope that will motivate Peja to become our new franchise player, like we saw glimpses of when CWebb was out. 3) Once the contracts of Corliss and Skinner run out, we may be stuck with paying Kenny for a few more years, but we'd rather have that that pay CWebb $60 mil to try and play on one leg."

 

[hammystyle]

I have no problem with Brockman getting minutes. I think he and Kenny are pretty even right now with what they offer. And I'll always give the minutes to the younger player of two who are playing equally. Brockman is also undersized, and his problem (and what I believe is limiting his minutes) is his foot speed on defense.

But Sean May? He's shown very little promise. He hasn't been rebounding, and his post defense has been horrible.

Kenny Thomas at this point in his career is an "average" basketball player. It shouldn't be "amusing" to defend him by saying he's average. That's not that good. But for this team ... that means you should get a few minutes.

He's not "average"...he's terrible. He WAS an average player in his prime, has gotten much worse since then and is now terrible. I mean think about it...we're one of the worst teams in the league. We have 14 players on the roster so if he were even average for this team he'd be about the 7th or 8th best player. Even with a couple completely useless players like Mason and Greene, and on the premise he's better than May and Brockman (which I vehemently disagree with)...but even then he's what?The 10th best player?

I'm not going to defend May, who's been a dog so far. But you're defending a guy who hasn't even scored yet for goodness sakes. 22 minutes 0-3 for 0 points. This isn't exactly small sample size either since in the few minutes he's played over the last few years he's been utterly abysmal on O. He makes Brockman look like Karl Malone by comparison.This is why its (amusingly) offensive that you're defending him.

**Edit** Just read the Desmond Mason post. With him gone and Udoka in, KT's the 13th best player on the team. Or 11th if you think he's better than May and Brockman.

 

[Oprostaj]

I love how end your post with "This is reality" even though your entire post is basically full of some fantasy world where players' salaries are directly tied to their current performance, and the rest of your post is full of your opinion about what does and does not motivate Kenny.

If you want to talk about reality, let's look at it. The year Webber was traded, Kenny Thomas was a HUGE value to the team. I recall many posts of "Webber who?" because of how well he played. He didn't "suck"

The following year is the ONLY time there was any talk of Kenny having an attitude problem. That was due to him wanting to start. I don't defend that, and I too was not happy with his attitude. They also made the playoffs that year. He didn't "suck".

If I recall correctly, the following year Kenny had a pretty serious shoulder injury that coincided with him no longer being able to hit any outside shots. But he still rebounded and defended decently.

Since that point in time, we have had Musselman, Theus, & Knatt as coaches. Why does he get ZERO minutes those years? It could be because of these coaches, what was seen in practice, a desire to play younger guys and develop them, to pee him off and hope he and his agent propose a buyout. I don't know. NO ONE on this board knows.

What has been clear to me over the last 3 years is that Kenny Thomas can at least positively contribute, to this team. I'm not saying he can turn around this team, or is a great player. But he does not "suck" so bad that he should sit on the bench for 48 minutes a game. Until you have a better option coming off the bench, he should get some minutes. Since 2006, the "better" options have been (Mikki, Sheldon, and some sad attempts to play SFs at that position).

All I'm saying, is that everyone's bitterness about the downfall of the Kings that should be blamed on coaches, the GM, the owners, the fans, fate, bad luck ... whoever or whatever you want to blame it on ... seems to fall on Kenny Thomas. And it is not deserved.

At least quote me right. My "reality" is that Kenny Thomas sucks. Reality is that we need to see what we have in our young players - even if its May and Green. Reality is that he has been a bad player the past few years, due to injury, ineffectiveness, coaching changes. etc... all contributed. He has looked bad. He has looked marginally better this year, but not enough for you to defend him like we have the next budding superstar burning minutes.

By the way, not sure what you are inferring you in my posts - i simply said that his newfound motivation was due to his impending status as a FA - you need to relax.

 

[keflanag]

**Edit** Just read the Desmond Mason post. With him gone and Udoka in, KT's the 13th best player on the team. Or 11th if you think he's better than May and Brockman.

Why are you talking about all the players on the team with regards to comparing to Kenny. I never said Kenny was better than K-mart, Evans, Udrih, Hawes, etc. I said, at this point, he is the best backup PF on the team. I agree, that between him and Brockman it is debatable. But excluding Brockman, who else is a better option at the 4 when the starters need rest?

Here are the other non-guards on the bench:

May
Nocioni
Casspi
Donte

Kenny has played better than May so far. Nocioni is now your starting 3. Donte at this point hasn't even showed enough to dress for the game apparently. Casspi is great for this team, but not guarding a 4.

So for your backup minutes at the 4, you have Kenny, Brockman, and shifting Nocioni over. Don't tell me its ridiculous to put Kenny in when those are your options.

 

[hammystyle]

Why are you talking about all the players on the team with regards to comparing to Kenny. I never said Kenny was better than K-mart, Evans, Udrih, Hawes, etc. I said, at this point, he is the best backup PF on the team. I agree, that between him and Brockman it is debatable. But excluding Brockman, who else is a better option at the 4 when the starters need rest?

You said in a previous post Kenny is "average". This was a preposterous statement since he's among the league's worst players. So instead of ranking him amongst the entire league, I showed where he ranked on our team, which is below average. And we're a very bad team. Thus proving he was NOT average.

Here are the other non-guards on the bench:

May
Nocioni
Casspi
Donte

Kenny has played better than May so far.

That's debatable. May has been really bad, but so has Kenny. Again, I'm really not defending May, but there's at least a chance he'll get better. He'll almost assuredly start rebounding better since that's his strength, and he can't help but get better on the post. Kenny is not going to magically repair his offense to anything remotely approaching playable in the NBA.

Nocioni is now your starting 3. Donte at this point hasn't even showed enough to dress for the game apparently. Casspi is great for this team, but not guarding a 4.

So for your backup minutes at the 4, you have Kenny, Brockman, and shifting Nocioni over. Don't tell me its ridiculous to put Kenny in when those are your options.

I will continue to say its ridiculous to play a 32 year old undersized PF who can't score and has been one of the worst players in the league for almost three years. But I'm really not worried about it, because its pretty harmless considering the options. I'm just astounded there's anyone defending Kenny Thomas as a decent player.

 

[keflanag]

You said in a previous post Kenny is "average". This was a preposterous statement since he's among the league's worst players. So instead of ranking him amongst the entire league, I showed where he ranked on our team, which is below average. And we're a very bad team. Thus proving he was NOT average.



That's debatable. May has been really bad, but so has Kenny. Again, I'm really not defending May, but there's at least a chance he'll get better. He'll almost assuredly start rebounding better since that's his strength, and he can't help but get better on the post. Kenny is not going to magically repair his offense to anything remotely approaching playable in the NBA.



I will continue to say its ridiculous to play a 32 year old undersized PF who can't score and has been one of the worst players in the league for almost three years. But I'm really not worried about it, because its pretty harmless considering the options. I'm just astounded there's anyone defending Kenny Thomas as a decent player.

So, let me understand you. You start off by saying Kenny Thomas is among the league's worst players. Since that MUST be fact because you say it, you draw from that the conclusion that Kenny Thomas is not a player of average skill. I'm not even going to try and argue against that rock solid logic.

Then you say that Sean May will "get better" with more minutes. But Kenny Thomas on the other hand is different than any other basketball player on the face of the earth in that he someone will not get better if he plays more. Again ... Wow ... brilliant.

Finally, he has been one of the "worst players in the league" over the last 3 years. I'm sure you must have a ton of stats to back that up. Oh, wait ... you don't. Because over the last 3 years, all you have are DNP CD. So, the geniuses that were Theus and Kenny Knatt chose not to play him and instead put in Mikki Moore and Sheldon Williams. And this is what you are basing it on?

I think there is nothing wrong with giving Kenny 10 minutes a game on the fact that he is a decent rebounder, and sadly, one of the best post defenders on the team. But that must be CRAZY compared to all of your great logic above.

 

[hammystyle]

So, let me understand you. You start off by saying Kenny Thomas is among the league's worst players. Since that MUST be fact because you say it, you draw from that the conclusion that Kenny Thomas is not a player of average skill. I'm not even going to try and argue against that rock solid logic.

Good idea

Then you say that Sean May will "get better" with more minutes. But Kenny Thomas on the other hand is different than any other basketball player on the face of the earth in that he someone will not get better if he plays more. Again ... Wow ... brilliant.

I said Sean May "might" play better than he has so far. He's young and hasn't had much of a chance. Kenny Thomas is old and doesn't deserve any more chances.

Finally, he has been one of the "worst players in the league" over the last 3 years. I'm sure you must have a ton of stats to back that up. Oh, wait ... you don't. Because over the last 3 years, all you have are DNP CD. So, the geniuses that were Theus and Kenny Knatt chose not to play him and instead put in Mikki Moore and Sheldon Williams. And this is what you are basing it on?

Here are your stats. Starting in 07-08, here are Kenny's averages per 40 minutes.

4.2 points 8.9 rebounds 1.7 assists 1.4 steals .3 blocks 2.4 TO 5.4 fouls 39% FG and 0% on FT

That's only over 365 minutes, but find me someone who's playing worse than that not named Mark Madsen.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

But Sean May? He's shown very little promise. He hasn't been rebounding, and his post defense has been horrible.

To be fair to May, that's all true, but he's also an undersized PF who's being asked to play center.

 

[keflanag]

Here are your stats. Starting in 07-08, here are Kenny's averages per 40 minutes.

4.2 points 8.9 rebounds 1.7 assists 1.4 steals .3 blocks 2.4 TO 5.4 fouls 39% FG and 0% on FT

That's only over 365 minutes, but find me someone who's playing worse than that not named Mark Madsen.

And when you subtract the 300 or so minutes of that which were Kenny running up and down the court while a bunch of D-League scrubs jack up 3 pointers during blowout, what are you left with? That's right ... no way to conclude ANYTHING from that few meaningful minutes. The last season Kenny played with any type of consistent minutes, he wasn't horrible. Not great, just average.

So far, he has played two games this season. So far, he's looked okay. All I'd like is for everyone to back off all the hating until he gives you something to hate. If all you have is, "I wish he didn't have such a big contract", just let it go. If he plays well, be happy, give him some credit. If he sucks is up, complain away.

I just think it's messed up that when he plays poorly, he gets slammed. And when he plays extremely well, he gets slammed.

 

[hammystyle]

And when you subtract the 300 or so minutes of that which were Kenny running up and down the court while a bunch of D-League scrubs jack up 3 pointers during blowout, what are you left with? That's right ... no way to conclude ANYTHING from that few meaningful minutes. The last season Kenny played with any type of consistent minutes, he wasn't horrible. Not great, just average.

So far, he has played two games this season. So far, he's looked okay. All I'd like is for everyone to back off all the hating until he gives you something to hate. If all you have is, "I wish he didn't have such a big contract", just let it go. If he plays well, be happy, give him some credit. If he sucks is up, complain away.

I just think it's messed up that when he plays poorly, he gets slammed. And when he plays extremely well, he gets slammed.

He hasn't played extremely well in years. And he's not playing ok so far. 0 points 6 rebounds and 2 assists in 22 minutes is not good.

Honestly, what do you consider to be a bad player in the NBA?

I don't care about his contract other than I'm glad its ending this year. What I'm sure you'll find, is that its the only thing keeping him in the league.

 

[kingsnation]

When you combine Kenny's contract, age, talent level and future role with this team - OP, you will see why he shouldn't play.

Does he have some talent? Sure. But is it really fair to say he has more than Brock or May? Or smallball guys like Greene, Noc and Casspi?

Even if KT actually was just as talented as those guys, his future with the team has already been decided while the younger guys NEED to play. This is the same reason why Mason had to go.

No matter what anyone says, this contract and that trade will forever go down as one of the top 5-10 worst moves in sports history. As someone said earlier, Kenny's situation exemplifies everything that is wrong with this franchise.

 

[kingsnation]

when we traded webber for kenny, g.w. bush had just given his inaugural address to begin his 2nd term a month before the trade. by the time he is gone, obama wouldve been president for over a year....

ugh. this is just depressing.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

No matter what anyone says, this contract and that trade will forever go down as one of the top 5-10 moves in sports history. As someone said earlier, Kenny's situation exemplifies everything that is wrong with this franchise.

I assume you mean "worst" 5-10 moves. And honestly, I don't see it.

We traded away an injured star with a huge amount of money owed (who never regained his previous form and ended up being cut) for a group of non-stars who were owed somewhat less money spread out over a somewhat longer period. This was a six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other trade, and I suspect that if Webber hadn't been traded there would have been a lot of people screaming about how his huge contract was killing us while he sat on the bench not playing.

When you've got easy-to-find examples like Pedro Martinez being traded for Delino DeShields, or Jeff Bagwell being traded for nobody in particular, or Sam Bowie being picked before Michael Jordan, or (in our favor for once) Mitch Richmond being traded for Billy Owens there's just no way "Broken Webber for (un)Movable Parts" can sniff worst ever.

 

[Oprostaj]

well in all fairness Capt. it was a crappy no win situation for our club. not top 10 in sports, but has to rank high up in Kings history for sheer terrible situation. At this point not sure what was worse, keeping half a Webb or getting half a Webb.

 

[bajaden]

I assume you mean "worst" 5-10 moves. And honestly, I don't see it.

We traded away an injured star with a huge amount of money owed (who never regained his previous form and ended up being cut) for a group of non-stars who were owed somewhat less money spread out over a somewhat longer period. This was a six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other trade, and I suspect that if Webber hadn't been traded there would have been a lot of people screaming about how his huge contract was killing us while he sat on the bench not playing.

When you've got easy-to-find examples like Pedro Martinez being traded for Delino DeShields, or Jeff Bagwell being traded for nobody in particular, or Sam Bowie being picked before Michael Jordan, or (in our favor for once) Mitch Richmond being traded for Billy Owens there's just no way "Broken Webber for (un)Movable Parts" can sniff worst ever.

Agreed! There are idiots out there right now saying we need to trade Martin. And if for some reason Martin has an injury that he's unable to completely recover from they'll blast Petrie for not trading him while he had value. On the other hand if Martin were traded and never had another injury and became an all star, some of the same people would be blaming Petrie for trading our suspossed best player.. The Webber deal was a lose/lose situation. Prior to the trade, most on this fourm thought that there was no one in the league that would trade for Webber. That he was an immovable peice. That meant he had a big contract and low value. I'm not sure what people thought we could get for him in that situation. I doubt Petrie turned down better offers than the one he ended up with. There just was no easy answer..

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh B.S.

Really.

Defending that move is pathetic.

Blame it on the Maloofs if you just need to make excuses for Geoffy boy, but don't sit here and try to rework history. You do NOT make that trade. EVER. E-V-E-R. You do not trade a away player that has been that important to your franchise -- arguably THE most important player in franchise history -- for middleaged middle contracted junk. EVER. That was a blood run cold moment when I heard that trade announced. The monkeys were running the franchise, and now they still have kin running around and trying to defend their moves after a near historic fall from grace. We as a franchsie got exactly what we deserved for being idiots, as frankly did all the fans who bought Voison's posionous bull****. Unfortunately they took the rest of us fans down with them.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Oh B.S.

Right back at you.

Defending that move is pathetic.

Sorry that I called a "nothing move" what it was. What it clearly wasn't, despite how much you might have disliked the move, is one of the worst 5-10 moves in sports history. Just not even close in terms of negative impact to the franchise. The Webber injury? Sure, that hurt a lot. But the trade? It was a financial move that spread some money out after the damage was already done. Whoop-de-doo.

Sure, fans got angry that Webber got traded away. But if he had stayed, fans would have gotten angry that we had a useless Webber sitting on our bench wasting our cap space. There's a brand of fan that WANTS to get angry, and if the team isn't doing well they're going to find a reason to be angry come hell or high water. Even trying to cater to that fan is a mistake, because you can't win.

Blame it on the Maloofs if you just need to make excuses for Geoffy boy, but don't sit here and try to rework history.

Seriously, get over it. Where did I mention Petrie? Where was I making excuses for Petrie? I was trying to bring objectivity back into play after a statement of hyperbole.

You have a different opinion of Petrie than I (and obviously some other posters) do. That's fine. But instead of acknowledging my reasons for my opinion (and I DO have reasons), you act as if I have some sort of case of Petrie-worship, you know, shrine in the basement and a little Petrie stuffed doll that I sleep with every night. You have on more than one occasion equated a positive opinion of Petrie with god-worship. Frankly, I find it very disrespectful that you paint my position in ridiculous caricature, and I hope someday you'll stop.

 

[keflanag]

We traded away an injured star with a huge amount of money owed (who never regained his previous form and ended up being cut) for a group of non-stars who were owed somewhat less money spread out over a somewhat longer period. This was a six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other trade, and I suspect that if Webber hadn't been traded there would have been a lot of people screaming about how his huge contract was killing us while he sat on the bench not playing.

You absolutely nailed it right on the head here. You'll find a lot of the same people who think the Webber trade was the WORST thing for the franchise to be the same people who thought it was Webber who DESTROYED the team by insisting he play and start.

I personally didn't think the Webber trade was necessary, and showed way too much confidence in the Bibby/Miller/Peja "big three". However, I don't think it is "absurd" to defend owners saving a few million dollars by trading away a player whose career was pretty much over. There is no one who was a bigger fan of C-Webb than me, but we all knew he was done.

 

[kingsnation]

I assume you mean "worst" 5-10 moves. And honestly, I don't see it.

We traded away an injured star with a huge amount of money owed (who never regained his previous form and ended up being cut) for a group of non-stars who were owed somewhat less money spread out over a somewhat longer period. This was a six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other trade, and I suspect that if Webber hadn't been traded there would have been a lot of people screaming about how his huge contract was killing us while he sat on the bench not playing.

When you've got easy-to-find examples like Pedro Martinez being traded for Delino DeShields, or Jeff Bagwell being traded for nobody in particular, or Sam Bowie being picked before Michael Jordan, or (in our favor for once) Mitch Richmond being traded for Billy Owens there's just no way "Broken Webber for (un)Movable Parts" can sniff worst ever.

If you were to go back and look at all of the trades in sports history and judge them on how they affected a franchise over the next decade, the Webber deal would rank right up there with the worst of all time.

Our franchise has been defined by both Webber trades. The first one brought us to glory and prominence. The last one was the beginning of the longest rebuild in the NBA.

Half a decade later and we are still feeling the affects of that trade. Namely, the large contract that nobody wants sitting at the end of our bench, which was at the time a "movable piece." Come to think of it, we got a few movable pieces in that trade, none of which were moved for anything of significance.

While I don't think Webber had many good years left in him, Philadelphia certainly got more out of the deal than we ever did. He performed at a decent level for them.

And btw? Imagine Webb, even if he couldn't play... he'd be the leader of our locker room and an example for the young team we've had the past few years. Imagine Webb coaching and mentoring Hawes and JT.

I'd rather have a injured Webber uniting and leading our locker room for a few years than have a healthy Kenny Thomas any day of the week.

 

[VF21]

I was, along with Kingsgurl and Kingsgirl4, one of the biggest Webber fans on this board. It broke my heart to see him traded but, after the fact, I came to understand that it was most likely for the best. Webb declined after the trade, much like Doug Christie, to the point where people on this board would have been going berzerk criticizing him, bashing him and demanding Petrie's head for not doing something.

Had Webber stayed he would have become a very expensive albatross and that would have been horrible for the fans, for the team and for Webber himself.

I can accept now what I couldn't accept then. Petrie could smell the milk going bad the day before anybody else and he pulled the trigger on the only deal that came along.

What hurt this franchise, as it has so very many times, is the injury bug. If Webber's knee hadn't given out on that day in Dallas, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Blame bad karma, blame the Indian burial ground urban legend, blame Finley... I can't blame Petrie any longer because what happened in Webber's career subsequent to the trade showed that we most likely wouldn't have been receiving any better offers.

 

[Bricklayer]

I was, along with Kingsgurl and Kingsgirl4, one of the biggest Webber fans on this board. It broke my heart to see him traded but, after the fact, I came to understand that it was most likely for the best. Webb declined after the trade, much like Doug Christie, to the point where people on this board would have been going berzerk criticizing him, bashing him and demanding Petrie's head for not doing something.

Had Webber stayed he would have become a very expensive albatross and that would have been horrible for the fans, for the team and for Webber himself.

I can accept now what I couldn't accept then. Petrie could smell the milk going bad the day before anybody else and he pulled the trigger on the only deal that came along.

What hurt this franchise, as it has so very many times, is the injury bug. If Webber's knee hadn't given out on that day in Dallas, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Blame bad karma, blame the Indian burial ground urban legend, blame Finley... I can't blame Petrie any longer because what happened in Webber's career subsequent to the trade showed that we most likely wouldn't have been receiving any better offers.

Your change of heart has nothing to do with anything except being a nhomer. If Webber were still here, and Geoff had been fired in '05, at this very moment you would be argbuing it the other way around.

 

[reid1boys]

When you combine Kenny's contract, age, talent level and future role with this team - OP, you will see why he shouldn't play.




I was the Op, and at no time did I say KT should be getting massive minutes, although you could argue he should have gotten minutes last year and the year before. I am tired of the venom that goes his way, when he has acted professionally in his situation. And to say he is just content to sit his arse on the bench and collect a paycheck.. uhhhh, yeah, like Marbury was, and he was collecting 20 million a season.
Players want to play. What KT has not done is sit and bit.. at every chance. He has acted like a pro, and when asked to play, he has done so.


The Webber trade was made to clear webbers HUGE contract. His career was over, and yet he still had far more than KT coming his way. KT avg what, 14 pts and almost 10 boards a game when he came to the kins. That didnt disappear over night. he got in someones doghous and never came out.

But dont slam him for anything other then DUMBarse GMs that over pay with LONG contracts that they get stuck with. Nobody told these GMs to pay avg players huge amounts for 6 or more years. That is there fault, not the players.

 

[VF21]

Your change of heart has nothing to do with anything except being a nhomer. If Webber were still here, and Geoff had been fired in '05, at this very moment you would be argbuing it the other way around.

You know, I'm getting just a bit tired of constantly being derided for being a homer as though that's some kind of curse or something. Yes, I'm a Kings homer. Have been since 1985 and don't deny it. But that doesn't automatically preclude my takes from having some validity. Just because you disagree, do you really have to resort to name-calling?

My change of heart as you call it is based on pretty sound grounds. Webber was never again the player he had been before the knee. I'm not going to play what if with regards to the "flexible pieces" because it doesn't mean anything. What happened, happened. If it hadn't happened, something else might have...

And please don't presume to pretend you know what I would or wouldn't have argued in a big ol' game of "what if"...

 

[Rookie]

Yes, I'm a Kings homer.

You're not alone.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sorry that I called a "nothing move" what it was. What it clearly wasn't, despite how much you might have disliked the move, is one of the worst 5-10 moves in sports history. Just not even close in terms of negative impact to the franchise. The Webber injury? Sure, that hurt a lot. But the trade? It was a financial move that spread some money out after the damage was already done. Whoop-de-doo.

Sure, fans got angry that Webber got traded away. But if he had stayed, fans would have gotten angry that we had a useless Webber sitting on our bench wasting our cap space. There's a brand of fan that WANTS to get angry, and if the team isn't doing well they're going to find a reason to be angry come hell or high water. Even trying to cater to that fan is a mistake, because you can't win.



Seriously, get over it. Where did I mention Petrie? Where was I making excuses for Petrie? I was trying to bring objectivity back into play after a statement of hyperbole.

You have a different opinion of Petrie than I (and obviously some other posters) do. That's fine. But instead of acknowledging my reasons for my opinion (and I DO have reasons), you act as if I have some sort of case of Petrie-worship, you know, shrine in the basement and a little Petrie stuffed doll that I sleep with every night. You have on more than one occasion equated a positive opinion of Petrie with god-worship. Frankly, I find it very disrespectful that you paint my position in ridiculous caricature, and I hope someday you'll stop.

While I would love to say oops, sorry abiout that to a logn term poster -- not likely. Because the alternative is profound, I will say obliqueness here to avoid the term ignorance, of NBA consequences, and I actually do try not to assume that about most longterm posters who have shown themselves in the ballpark on other topics. Most mistakes, stupid statements, and ridiculous defenses on this board are made by people who should know better, DO know better, and never in a million years would make the same argument if something similar was happening with another franchise that did not have a favored player/son/whatever on it clouding things. If Chris Wallace makes that move, we laugh him out of the building.

Some refresher points:

1) Chris Webber played in 75gms and for 2892 minutes the next season, which is almost as much as the entire package of "flexible pieces" averaged together. He played in 61 games for 1892 mintes the next year, and many of those missed games were missed while waiting for his release to go to the Pistons. Webb's onerous contract ended after that season, meaning he missed probably less than 20 games over the remainder of that contract due to injury.

2) Matt Barnes was a throw in in that trade, and he's better than any one of those flexible pieces at this stage of his career.

3) as a consequence of making that trade we dumped ANOTHER long term contract on a declining Shareef Abdur-Rahim, and actually only have GOOD luck to thank for his having to medically retire before it hamstrung us further.

4) at the point of Webb's contract running out in 2007 we still had some $14 million dollars on the books that were a direct result of that trade (KT + Shareef). We still, to this day have $8mil running against us while Webb has moved on to becomeing a TV analyst.

5) I was serious when I offered you a chance to merely throw that move on the Maloofs and avoid trying to defend it. It was powered by venom drawn from fans, Voison, Grant and quite likely the Maloofs. Petrie choked up that night in annoucning it. Trying to dump it on the others has long been the most rational defense of Geoff for what was an awful basketball move. Not only an awful basketball move, but an awful franchise move. That move more than any other broke the fanbase. The ones who cheered it were also the first to abandon the future team when it turned out that oopsie, no Webb didn't magically result in glory. The ones who hated it grew depressed and gradually dropped off the map. It takes a lot of work to become the worst franchsie in the NBA in the space of 6 years. And yes I said worst, by the simple combination of having the very worst record and having the very worst attendance. You have to do some seriously wrong crap to reach that point. SOMEBODY up there was an idiot. Maybe it was Petrie, maybe it was the Maloofs with a little Poison whispered intothe ear, who knows. But somebody ****ed up BAD. As I said that very night. As I have said for 5 years. As has been proven absolutely correct. Yay me for predicting the demise of my own franchise.

Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. I hope Geoff at least has learend his lesson.

 

[Oprostaj]

agreed with Brick, altough Clips are at the top just by virtue of being owned by Sterling. No franchise will ever come close.

 

[Superman]

agreed with Brick, altough Clips are at the top just by virtue of being owned by Sterling. No franchise will ever come close.

Yo, yo, I'ma let you finish. I'm sorry, but the New York Knicks have won of the worst teams of all time. One of the worst teams of all time!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yo, yo, I'ma let you finish. I'm sorry, but the New York Knicks have won of the worst teams of all time. One of the worst teams of all time!

The Knicks are "turr-ible" [/Barkley], but I can't buy any argument that a franchise which has won two championship since the Clippers came into existence is worse than they are. At least when the Knicks get the Number One pick, they don't take busts...

 

[Superman]

The Knicks are "turr-ible" [/Barkley], but I can't buy any argument that a franchise which has won two championship since the Clippers came into existence is worse than they are. At least when the Knicks get the Number One pick, they don't take busts...

Yeah, I think the Clippers are the worst NBA franchise. I just wanted to use Kanye's line.

 

[Oprostaj]

The Knicks are "turr-ible" [/Barkley], but I can't buy any argument that a franchise which has won two championship since the Clippers came into existence is worse than they are. At least when the Knicks get the Number One pick, they don't take busts...

they clips don't take busts... they turn players into them.