Barry Bonds: "I Didn't Know"

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Wasn't even averaging 45-48. Had hit more than 42 ONCE in his entire career, back in 1993. He was not considered an elite power hitter on the levels of the Sosas and McGwires (who as it turned out were likely supplelmented as well). Then everything changed in 1999-2000.

If I had to speculate I could even go this far -- in 1999 Bonds was beginning to slip a bit with age, and sufferered through an injury plagued season. The next year he emerged as a new sort of creature. It could very well have been during that injury plagued year, while trying to rehab and watching Sosa and McGwire drink in all the glory, that this whole thing got started for Barry.

How can you prove Ruth didnt cheat? How can you prove he did? You Cant. Here it is different but you sound like your pushing Bonds to the side and saying his career is meaningless now.

Have you looked at his career numbers minus the steroid year?
658hrs
499sb's (500/500 club would come in 2005 season)

Can you honestly tell me someone with those numbers wont be in the hall of fame?

His steroid use may taint his career and stats but dont get into thinking "well maybe he started in 1999..." just because he changed his working out routines, etc which led him to getting better. Wow he had one huge jump in 2001... otherwise everything is about average.

Bonds just won an MVP award that wasnt even close, cleanly.

R.Johnson is a little old and look at him... almost won another CyYoung and just pitched a perfect game. Maybe he uses steroids too. Nope.

Beltre just jumped up 25 hrs from last year... and competed for a MVP award... could he be using steroids? No.

My point is... just because someone gets better at an age deemed "old" by people who could not physically be a professional athlete means nothing. Beltre is an exception but 25 hrs in one year? Thats alot... Im not saying he did and im not saying Johnson did but Im just saying someone who uses steroids doesnt automatically get better.

'Steroids' (funny how what he took is something the body already makes) doesnt let you hit homeruns every time you come to the plate like Bonds does. He can because of his eye-hand coordination, and his bat speed. Not to mention a very smart baseball player by studying and knowing what the pitcher will throw to put it to his advantage.

Its clearly people who have personal issues with Bonds who believe his career is a waste or tained because he did something unknowingly. I also dont think anyone has the right to question what he said to the grand jury about knowing what he was taking. Bonds never lied. He told the truth to the court but simply didnt feel like discussing it or dealing with it during the season. Is he wrong by doing so?

My last point, and probably the most important one is this:

As Larry Beil from Yahoo' Sports says: Bonds doesnt care what you think, he doesnt care what I think; All he cares about is playing baseball and being with his family. He doesnt care about numbers and stats, he sets goals but he doesnt cry if he doesnt get there. His job is baseball, just like you have a job... except his job happens to be a popular one to watch. Everyone knows he doesnt like all the attention and limelight.
So why are we even talking about this and saying what we think. Its his career and his life and he doesnt care if we 'taint' his career or not in our minds. All he cares about is what HE THINKS and KNOWS TO BE TRUE.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Its different than McGwire only in that what McGwire used was a relatively widely distributed weight training supplement (at the time) that floated around on the borders of being a steroid. No labs, secret formulas designed to be undetectable etc. It was out there and in common use, and he used it. did he use it with the intention of gaining an advantage? No doubt. Makes gaining muscle mass much easier. Did McGwire use it with knowledge that what he was doing was cheating? Much less likely. And that is the difference.

HgH is naturally produced in the human body but decreases as you get older. Abnormally short people tend to take it (from doctor). It wasnt 'created' in the lab, he simply just put it under his tounge.

The cream is different... that was 100% lab created and undetectable.

Does anyone know if HgH is detectible? I dont know but I dont think so since we already make it.

 

[Purple Reign]

Wasn't even averaging 45-48. Had hit more than 42 ONCE in his entire career, back in 1993. He was not considered an elite power hitter on the levels of the Sosas and McGwires (who as it turned out were likely supplelmented as well). Then everything changed in 1999-2000.

If I had to speculate I could even go this far -- in 1999 Bonds was beginning to slip a bit with age, and sufferered through an injury plagued season. The next year he emerged as a new sort of creature. It could very well have been during that injury plagued year, while trying to rehab and watching Sosa and McGwire drink in all the glory, that this whole thing got started for Barry.

BONDS
2000 - 49 HR
2001 - 73 HR
2002 - 46 HR
2003 - 45 HR
2004 - 46 HR

So does that mean that in 2001 he was taking more steroids than he was in 2003 and 2004? Once again analysis will always be subject to personal choice. If you were not a Bonds fan before, of course he cheated. If you were a fan, more than likely you will remain a fan. IMHO.

From 1989 through 1996 Randy Johnson averaged 210 strikeouts per season, 11.23 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched. His age range was 26 to 33.

From 1997 through 2004 where RJ's age range was 34-41, he averaged 306 strikeouts per game, a whopping 13.34 Ks per 9 innings. I don't see anybody asking what Johnson is taking. His career has exploded right around the same time Bonds has, 1999-2004.

My point is that this is a straight up witch hunt, always has been, always will be. Bonds has been found guilty in the court of public opinion, and we will see how he is judged in the future.

 

[Evenstar]

i got another one for you purple reign


eric gagne. he goes from being a mediocre starter topping out at 92-93. dodger fans hate him ( one of my best friends is a die hard dodgers fan and said he wanted him gone) he sucks as a starter, so they throw him in the pen. his fastball tops out at 99-100 now, and he's LIGHTS OUT. seems kinda strange to me.......


i'm surprised beltre isn't getting as much pub about this. so he goes from being a BUST who had all this " potential" yes yes i know about the botched apendectomy from a few years ago, but come on. that excuse can't be milked any longer. then when it's time to get paid, he starts being patient, goes from 23 home runs to 48 home runs and NO ONE says a darn thing about it. you've GOT to be kidding me.

so beltre just " realized his potential" but when bonds does it, oh he's juicing give him a * come on!!!!

bonds has ALWAYS been a home run hitter. the fewest he's ever hit was 16 in his rookie year, other wise, outside of one year when he hit 19, he's consistantly been over 20 or 30.

and VF21, what i meant about gaylord perry is that no one seems to care that he was throwing spit balls ( cheating) , yet they still voted him in the hall of fame, even thought throwing spitballs is illegal. why should it be any different for bonds??? yes he used an illegal susbstance ONE year ( 2003, and we still don't have any tangible proof on that, only federal grand jury testimory taht was illegal leaked to the press) even pre 2001 with the 73 HR's, bonds was going into the hall of fame. he didn't need to set the record to get in, he was amazing in his prime. 8 gold gloves, over 400 steals, over 300 home runs, a 40/40 season, a bunch of 30/30 seasons, he was the ultimate speed and power guy in the league, best all around player in the NL at least. he was even voted player of the decade by the sporting news over griffey JR. what really pissed me off were these stupid sportwriters saying they wouldn't vote bonds into the hall after they heard this news. well why should bonds be any different then gaylord perry, he was a cheater and he's in the hall, why can't bonds be??? thats all. ( i hope this makes sense to you)

oh and bartking, the cyclist you are talking about is tyler hamilton

 

[Bricklayer]

Good lord, Bonds apologists.

Bonds was in the league FIFTEEN YEARS before his magical transformation at an age when EVERY other hitter is lucky to hang on, let alone take a giant step forward. He had one legitimate career year back in 1993 when he was still in his prime and hit 46 homers. Two other times he barely topped 40. Then he reaches age 35 and magically starts hitting 50+ every year (and yes, he would be hitting 55-60 every single year if people weren't too afraid to pitch to him anymore). That does NOT happen. A young hitter can take a step forward. An old hitter in the age of decline does NOT take a titanic step forward to an impossible level.

Furthermore, while it is entirely possible that any number of other players MIGHT have taken roids (Sammy Sosa come on down!) they are not best pals with the biggest admitted steroid supplier in MLB history, and haven't admitted before a grand jury to having taken them. They also have, with the exception of a player like Sosa, not received the vast and as it turns out unjustified adoration Bonds has, nor have they made a travesty of the record books. In short, they have done far less damage to the integrity of the game because they simply do not matter as much. When a guy who is already a HOF caliber talent stoops to cheating, the consequences are enormous and ugly, and make a lie out of a much larger piece of the baseball landscape than if some obscure roleplayer decides to have a career year to get a bigger contract.

 

[hoops4kings]

Bonds is an enigma who will never admit to up and up cheating. He's the best power hitter of all time. Why would he say he uses junk to be better? Even without the CREAM and the WHATEVER, he's the most devastating offensive player ever. How come Sosa or these other roid idiots can't match Bonds? It's simple. They're not at that freak level as a player. Bonds is the best offensive player of all time, but I too think that the word STERIOD hurts his legacy. Still, I've played baseball and no enhancement drug in the world could make a lame player good imo. Maybe it could add some heft to a great player and maybe even a good player, but the hardest thing in sports is hitting a baseball. Steroids don't make you a better hitter. A more powerful hitter probably, but better? I doubt it.

Barry was a stud before he got like GODZILLA. LOL!

 

[Bricklayer]

Barry was a stud before he got like GODZILLA. LOL!

He was a stud, a HOF in fact. But he was NOT the best power hitter of all time, or close to it. He was 30-40 a year. His real legacy lay in being so well rounded -- stolen bases, defense. Its too bad he had to sell out for the false long ball glory.

 

[hoops4kings]

He was a stud, a HOF in fact. but he was NOT the best power hitter of all time, or close to it. He was 30-40 HR a year. His real legacy lay in being so well rounded -- stolen bases, defense. Its too bad he had to sell out for the false long ball glory.

Just like when Vlade became Shaq-like. Just kidding.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Good lord, Bonds apologists.

Bonds was in the league FIFTEEN YEARS before his magical transformation at an age when EVERY other hitter is lucky to hang on, let alone take a giant step forward. He had one legitimate career year back in 1993 when he was still in his prime and hit 46 homers. Two other times he barely topped 40. Then he reaches age 35 and magically starts hitting 50+ every year (and yes, he would be hitting 55-60 every single year if people weren't too afraid to pitch to him anymore). That does NOT happen. A young hitter can take a step forward. An old hitter in the age of decline does NOT take a titanic step forward to an impossible level.

Furthermore, while it is entirely possible that any number of other players MIGHT have taken roids (Sammy Sosa come on down!) they are not best pals with the biggest admitted steroid supplier in MLB history, and haven't admitted before a grand jury to having taken them. They also have, with the exception of a player like Sosa, not received the vast and as it turns out unjustified adoration Bonds has, nor have they made a travesty of the record books. In short, they have done far less damage to the integrity of the game because they simply do not matter as much. When a guy who is already a HOF caliber talent stoops to cheating, the consequences are enormous and ugly, and make a lie out of a much larger piece of the baseball landscape than if some obscure roleplayer decides to have a career year to get a bigger contract.

Dont forget... Bonds used steroids for ONE YEAR, in 2003!
He didnt start in 1999 or 2001 when he "got better". Why is it such a shock that he got better? Is it a rule that when you get older you are supposed to get worse? No. Ill be you when you were at his age or when you are you couldnt do what he did. And thats exactly why people say that. "If I cant do it, theres no way he can". Hes special, not normal, hes talented along with every other professional athelete and thats why they are pro. Bonds was getting better before he used steroids and theres another name for Bonds' Prime... its his career. He is still in his prime.
One reason that he started taking them was his fathers death. He lost workout habits, eating habits, etc. He didnt do well. He was depressed and his trainer tried to help him, but instead tricked him.

 

[Bricklayer]

Dont forget... Bonds used steroids for ONE YEAR, in 2003!
He didnt start in 1999 or 2001 when he "got better". Why is it such a shock that he got better? Is it a rule that when you get older you are supposed to get worse? No. Ill be you when you were at his age or when you are you couldnt do what he did. And thats exactly why people say that. "If I cant do it, theres no way he can". Hes special, not normal, hes talented along with every other professional athelete and thats why they are pro. Bonds was getting better before he used steroids and theres another name for Bonds' Prime... its his career. He is still in his prime.
One reason that he started taking them was his fathers death. He lost workout habits, eating habits, etc. He didnt do well. He was depressed and his trainer tried to help him, but instead tricked him.

Oh good lord. Do you really believe that? This isn't a TV movie of the week -- this is real life.

All he has ADMITTED yet was using them in 2003. After saying he didn't by the way. But you've got serious blinders on if you're going to buy his story that he didn't know what he was taking, that he, already having hit 73 homers, THEN got tricked into using steroids etc. by his bad ole trainer. That's just silly. (And gee, those roids must have really sucked given that they didn't improve his performance one bit in 2003 -- either sucked that is, or not improved it because he was ALREADY using them in 2002, 2001 and 2000). And the partial admission of guilt is the classic way to try to get off when a total denial will no longer suffice. Unfortuately, his is not credible.

And Major League Baseball hitters over the age of 35 DO NOT GET DRAMATICALLY BETTER -- and yes, that is pretty much a rule enforced by normal human biology. Take a look at the history of the sport, or nearly any sport. They just don't. The VERY BEST, longest lived, manage to maintain and slow their decline. But NOBODY goes off and puts together 5 straight back to back career years in celebration of hitting 35. Now you are free to stick your head in the sand, believe that Bonds is some sort of genetic freak who ages in reverse, or whatever you want to do. But there is a MUCH more likely explanation that fits very well with what we already know and doesn't require an X-File.

Bonds was a great player before he started all this. But he was also a human player playing by all the same rules as everyone else. He wasn't superhuman, nor magical. He wasn't getting stronger, faster, or quicker with age. Then something happened. Something that is pretty easy to trace in his performance. And here's one vote that that something was not a magic recessive gene kicking in, but far more likely the same something that has now been traced back to a host of other athletes in the BALCO circle. Bonds doesn't get his own set of rules or his own alternate reality just because "gee, wasn't it really neat the way he juiced those 73 balls over the wall a couple of years ago?"

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Oh good lord. Do you really believe that? This isn't a TV movie of the week -- this is real life.

All he has ADMITTED yet was using them in 2003. After saying he didn't by the way. But you've got serious blinders on if you're going to buy his story that he didn't know what he was taking, that he, already having hit 73 homers, THEN got tricked into using steroids etc. by his bad ole trainer. That's just silly. (And gee, those roids must have really sucked given that they didn't improve his performance one bit in 2003 -- either sucked that is, or not improved it because he was ALREADY using them in 2002, 2001 and 2000). And the partial admission of guilt is the classic way to try to get off when a total denial will no longer suffice. Unfortuately, his is not credible.

And Major League Baseball hitters over the age of 35 DO NOT GET DRAMATICALLY BETTER -- and yes, that is pretty much a rule enforced by normal human biology. Take a look at the history of the sport, or nearly any sport. They just don't. The VERY BEST, longest lived, manage to maintain and slow their decline. But NOBODY goes off and puts together 5 straight back to back career years in celebration of hitting 35. Now you are free to stick your head in the sand, believe that Bonds is some sort of genetic freak who ages in reverse, or whatever you want to do. But there is a MUCH more likely explanation that fits very well with what we already know and doesn't require an X-File.

Bonds was a great player before he started all this. But he was also a human player playing by all the same rules as everyone else. He wasn't superhuman, nor magical. He wasn't getting stronger, faster, or quicker with age. Then something happened. Something that is pretty easy to trace in his performance. And here's one vote that that something was not a magic recessive gene kicking in, but far more likely the same something that has now been traced back to a host of other athletes in the BALCO circle. Bonds doesn't get his own set of rules or his own alternate reality just because "gee, wasn't it really neat the way he juiced those 73 balls over the wall a couple of years ago?"

You know for a fact he would risk taking steroids in the 2004 season. And he won the MVP award. So really he sucks but because of the steroids that he took one year he is good. Ok...

And everyone is the same right? What do you think an average is? Some people get worse at a very young age, some at a middle age and some at a lot older age. Not everyone is the same. For some reason you believe Bonds would suck had he not used steroids and you seem to think he is still lying. Someone who doesnt like Bonds is and has always been looking for a way to blame him for his greatness. He used them in 2003 and you are trying to use that against his career.

 

[Purple Reign]

, And Major League Baseball hitters over the age of 35 DO NOT GET DRAMATICALLY BETTER -- and yes, that is pretty much a rule enforced by normal human biology. Take a look at the history of the sport, or nearly any sport. They just don't. The VERY BEST, longest lived, manage to maintain and slow their decline. But NOBODY goes off and puts together 5 straight back to back career years in celebration of hitting 35. Now you are free to stick your head in the sand, believe that Bonds is some sort of genetic freak who ages in reverse, or whatever you want to do. But there is a MUCH more likely explanation that fits very well with what we already know and doesn't require an X-File.

I am not going to be labor this to make anybody change their opinion. But what about Randy Johnson. How do you explain his explosion in his later years. That question has not been answered. Maybde it does not need to. But in the case of performance enhancement there is so much gray area, you can not come up with a definitive fact without question marks.

 

[Elise10]

I really don't believe that Barry didn't know what he was taking. For his trainer to tell Jason Giambi everything and Barry nothing is far-fetched. Especially when it's a guy who is so health-oriented that you can have him on the cover of any weight-training muscle magazine.

Proves that Jose Canseco and the late Ken Caminiti weren't just trying to smear dirt on everyone when they talked about players on steroids.

MLB isn't off the hook either, their testing(as well as the subsequent punishments) are a sham. They'll ban minor leaguers for using it but it's a warning on the major league level.

Everyone's body is not gonna react the same way to performance-enhancing steroid the same as the next person. So to compare the playing levels of Giambi, Sheffield and the like to Bonds isn't all that great. It wasn't illegal to do what they did but causes the same problems just as well.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

I am not going to be labor this to make anybody change their opinion. But what about Randy Johnson. How do you explain his explosion in his later years. That question has not been answered. Maybde it does not need to. But in the case of performance enhancement there is so much gray area, you can not come up with a definitive fact without question marks.

Exactly what im trying to get Bricklayer to understand... not everyone is the same. Some get hot in their final years that we believe they shouldnt and some just stay hot like Bonds and Johnson. There is no difference between them. How do you know Johnson didnt use steroids from another source similar to Balco?

Maybe some people have a talent no body else does. If you cant do what they do at their age then its impossible right? Do you train and work out like they do? No. Do you have the money to spend on staying in the best shape (Bonds working out with Greg Anderson at UCLA with track team this weekend)? Probably Not.

You know Bonds took steroids in 2003 so say what you want about that year of his career but to make up statements and things about non-steroid years is like saying Johnson used steroids. There is no proof except for 2003.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

I really don't believe that Barry didn't know what he was taking. For his trainer to tell Jason Giambi everything and Barry nothing is far-fetched. Especially when it's a guy who is so health-oriented that you can have him on the cover of any weight-training muscle magazine.

Proves that Jose Canseco and the late Ken Caminiti weren't just trying to smear dirt on everyone when they talked about players on steroids.

MLB isn't off the hook either, their testing(as well as the subsequent punishments) are a sham. They'll ban minor leaguers for using it but it's a warning on the major league level.

Everyone's body is not gonna react the same way to performance-enhancing steroid the same as the next person. So to compare the playing levels of Giambi, Sheffield and the like to Bonds isn't all that great. It wasn't illegal to do what they did but causes the same problems just as well.

There is a huge difference. Bonds was looking for a way to feel better after his fathers death and deal with some arthritis. His trainer gave him some stuff that he thought would help (steroids). Jason Giambi went to Anderson and asked him for Steroids (help) in Japan and thats how he got them. Giambi accually started using them before Bonds did. Wouldnt you trust your childhood best friend that youve known for around 35 years? He says "Hey I used this cream for my arthritis and its been helping", what are you going to say back (with no known connection to steroids and Anderson)?... "Are there steroids in here, lets get this tested". Bonds did ask and was told it was flaxseed oil and whatever else. Are you going to question more? No you wouldnt.

 

[VF21]

Bibby Is Clutch - Your dedication to Bonds is honorable. What he did was not. Bonds isn't the first player to lose a parent and he certainly isn't the first with arthritis. Those are, I regret to say, excuses and everyone has them. If you have a childhood best friend you've known for 35 years, do you HONESTLY believe - and I stress honestly - that said friend would slip you steroids without telling you the truth. Would that BEST FRIEND lie to you about the contents when asked directly??? I don't think so.

You're painting Bonds as the innocent bystander in this whole situation, as though he had NO idea steroids were floating around. Do you think he hadn't heard what Canseco and Caminiti had said???

No, there is no proof except for 2003. That certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen, however.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Bibby Is Clutch - Your dedication to Bonds is honorable. What he did was not. Bonds isn't the first player to lose a parent and he certainly isn't the first with arthritis. Those are, I regret to say, excuses and everyone has them. If you have a childhood best friend you've known for 35 years, do you HONESTLY believe - and I stress honestly - that said friend would slip you steroids without telling you the truth. Would that BEST FRIEND lie to you about the contents when asked directly??? I don't think so.

You're painting Bonds as the innocent bystander in this whole situation, as though he had NO idea steroids were floating around. Do you think he hadn't heard what Canseco and Caminiti had said???

No, there is no proof except for 2003. That certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen, however.

I understand he took them, and know he made a terrible mistake. Im not saying that. Thats what they are saying. I for one would trust my best friend that ive known for 35 years, however If I found out they lied to me over something life changing I surely wouldnt be talking to them anymore. They remain best of friends so It is suspicious but it may also be loyal.

The more I think about it the more I believe he did know. If he just found out last year when he testified that his trainer gave him steroids instead then he should have not talked to him and whatever else which would help the public believe he was tricked. If he did know then I dont care to much. Everyone makes mistakes. This isnt that big of a mistake personal wise, its only big because millions watch and play the sport and idolize him. Ya he messed up but I just dont understand why he would lie about taking them any other year besides 2003.

I also dont understand why people are discussing him not being voted into the HOF. Steroids aside, he has had one of the best careers in history.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Its different than McGwire only in that what McGwire used was a relatively widely distributed weight training supplement (at the time) that floated around on the borders of being a steroid. No labs, secret formulas designed to be undetectable etc. It was out there and in common use, and he used it. did he use it with the intention of gaining an advantage? No doubt. Makes gaining muscle mass much easier. Did McGwire use it with knowledge that what he was doing was cheating? Much less likely. And that is the difference.

If Webber could have done into a secret lab and had a new, groundbreaking knee surgery not available to other players that would have brought him back sooner and better would that have been cheating?

 

[Bricklayer]

If Webber could have done into a secret lab and had a new, groundbreaking knee surgery not available to other players that would have brought him back sooner and better would that have been cheating?

Now you're being silly.

At that rate, all you have to do to be playing fair is to be on the cutting edge of designer steroids. There is ALWAYS something new.

Steroids are cheating plain and simple -- in ALL their forms. You have the relationship backwards -- they don't become cheating because a governing body says so. They are cheating because they give you an unfair advantage over other non-enhanced humans. Its not even you competing out there with your own abilities. Its you and the roids competing against the other guy.

P.S. Randy Johnson actually had the 2 most domiannt seasons of his career BEFORE he moved to Arizona -- he jsut kept on getting hurt and didn't pitch as many innings. He was a very late bloomer (think 27 or something before he even got going), but after he came into his own he became very dominant very quick and was throwing 100mph from the beginning. The two things that changed when he became more productive late in his career were #1 he changed leagues, and #2 and more importantly, he finally stayed healthy. And that last one is really the important thing. Now could the reason he stayed healthy be roids? Perhaps I suspose. But there is no particlular evidence of that. Wouldn't shock me. But other than staying healthy, he hasn't magically gotten better. Isn't throwing the ball harder. Hasn't put on 20lbs of muscle.

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

Now you're being silly.

At that rate, all you have to do to be playing fair is to be on the cutting edge of designer steroids. There is ALWAYS something new.

Steroids are cheating plain and simple -- in ALL their forms. You have the relationship backwards -- they don't become cheating because a governing body says so. They are cheating because they give you an unfair advantage over other non-enhanced humans. Its not even you competing out there with your own abilities. Its you and the roids competing against the other guy.

P.S. Randy Johnson actually had the 2 most domiannt seasons of his career BEFORE he moved to Arizona -- he jsut kept on getting hurt and didn't pitch as many innings. He was a very late bloomer (think 27 or something before he even got going), but after he came into his own he became very dominant very quick and was throwing 100mph from the beginning. The two things that changed when he became more productive late in his career were #1 he changed leagues, and #2 and more importantly, he finally stayed healthy. And that last one is really the important thing. Now could the reason he stayed healthy be roids? Perhaps I suspose. But there is no particlular evidence of that. Wouldn't shock me. But other than staying healthy, he hasn't magically gotten better. Isn't throwing the ball harder. Hasn't put on 20lbs of muscle.

Do you work out yourself? Do you understand the time Bonds' puts into every offseason to stay the best shape? 20lbs or muscle... thats nothing for what he does.

 

[Bricklayer]

Do you work out yourself? Do you understand the time Bonds' puts into every offseason to stay the best shape? 20lbs or muscle... thats nothing for what he does.

Oh yes indeedy I worked out. In fact, when I was young and dumb I myself got accused of using steroids on several occasions because of my natural bulk -- about 230 hard, and then up to almost 250 when I started letting it go to fat. I have stretchmarks on my pecs running underneath my arms from being too massive, and bonespurs on the top of my shoulders that apparently develop to help anchor the extra mass. I tore the ligaments in my elbow by entering an arm wrestling competition with some stupid friends -- still won that match, but went out painfully in the semis. Before I wised up I used to run with a bunch of lunkheads that thought it was hilarious to pick up peoples cars off of curbs and move them up on their lawn in the middle of the night. Actually, I still think that is funny.

And then on the other side, once I no longer needed the bulk for football, and had lost my macho teenage fascination with beating people up, I tore it all down and stripped myself down to 175lbs and about 3% bodyfat. About as trim as I could go on this frame. I lost 70lbs in 6 months by a combination of a 1200 calorie a day diet and at least 3 hours of aerobic activity a day (or at least that was the goal). Smaller size worked better for tennis and most girls, although I later decided to bulk back up to a more sustainable level.

And you know what? NONE of that matters in the least here. It is you who keep on trying to interject the "you or I" angle. This is NOT you or I. This is a professional athlete. At my most serious, I was still an amateur. I could mess around with my size and weight, because there were no real consequences. Want to get big? Fine. Want to lose the bulk? Fine again. Worst that happens is that it plays havoc with your wardrobe.

Barry Bonds is an elite professional athlete, and a workout FREAK. And was for his ENTIRE career before the magic happened. Quite frankly, you yourself would have a far easier time dumping on 30lbs of muscle and doubling your athletic prowess because you aren't already operating at or near your peak and doing everything within your power to compete with other professional athletes (unless you are you seriously arguing that Bonds was a slacker until age 35?). Your potential is, in all liklihood, much further off for you. Comapring Bonds to us is apples and oranges -- a smokescreen. Comparing him to his peers, to other elite athletes, is not. And they do NOT take giant steps forward at age 35.

Barry has EVERY reason to lie about when he started taking roids. The 70 HR year is his trademakr. His crown jewel. Of COURSE he would never say he used them during that year (regardless of whether he did or not). In fact he has ALREADY lied about not having used them at all, so why exactly you would think that somehow his veracity is beyond question for the other years is beyond me. I mean think about it -- the most celebrated power hitter in the sport after his huge year, with steroid whispers already being muttered in the background, AFTER he's already set the single season HR record THEN his trainer/best friend decided to trick him into using roids?? Does that sound remotely reasonable? Remotely like normal human behavior?

 

[Purple Reign]

This has been a great conversation. I will add this then I am gone. Bonds took a performance enhancing substance. How much, how long, what did it do, we will never know. I will admit this though piggybacking the great Henry Aaron: "the drugs did not help him hit the ball, but it assisted him be physically able to do things at the age of 40 that no other athlete in professional sports history has done". If Bonds regularly used (which at this point we still do not know), it gave him an edge to recover from injury, training regimen to be physically fit to do things. If it was all about the cream and the clear, Bobby Estella, Armando Rios and Benito Santiago would all be breaking records. Barry Bonds is different than those guys, why. Not because of some stupid cream you rub on an arm or knee. At the end of the day, it is still about talent and hard work.

 

[Elise10]

There is a huge difference. Bonds was looking for a way to feel better after his fathers death and deal with some arthritis. His trainer gave him some stuff that he thought would help (steroids). Jason Giambi went to Anderson and asked him for Steroids (help) in Japan and thats how he got them. Giambi accually started using them before Bonds did. Wouldnt you trust your childhood best friend that youve known for around 35 years? He says "Hey I used this cream for my arthritis and its been helping", what are you going to say back (with no known connection to steroids and Anderson)?... "Are there steroids in here, lets get this tested". Bonds did ask and was told it was flaxseed oil and whatever else. Are you going to question more? No you wouldnt.

This is how Giambi's conversation with Anderson got started:

Giambi said he asked Anderson about the things Bonds was doing to stay at an elite level.


"So I started to ask him, 'Hey, what are the things you're doing with Barry? He's an incredible player. I want to still be able to work out at that age and keep playing,'" Giambi testified. "And that's how the conversation first started."

 

[Bibby_Is_Clutch]

This is how Giambi's conversation with Anderson got started:

That still doesnt say Bonds used them before Giambi.

Bricklayer- I see your point and understand, the only thing im trying to say is dont accuse him untill he comes forward. EVERYTHING will come out into the open eventually.

 

[monk]

Barry B*nds

 

[Rowdyone]

Yes, Barry still had to hit the ball but the percentage of balls that he used to hit to the warning track decreased as they began to go over the fence due to his greater strength. MLB must act on his records with the same *** placed next to Roger Maris in 1961. Maris' records were astricked simply because he played in a 162 game season vs the Babe's 154. I didn't see Aaron's record dimished due to his greater number of AB's.

 

[BJax24]

Not enough juice to keep Bonds out
By Mark Kreidler
Special to ESPN.com

The writer's perspective on Barry Bonds? That's easy.

Bonds is (1) Generally impossible to truly like from either close up or a distance, especially when he (2) Uses an occasional well-timed TV appearance in a blatant attempt to wipe out weeks or months of surly behavior toward the media (and, by extension, the public), which is not to overlook his career-long tendency to (3) Alienate many or most of his teammates by (4) Making it abundantly clear that they need him and not the other way around, all of which makes it easy or even terribly tempting to believe that he (5) Achieved either some or a substantial portion of his greatness through chemical, BALCOian means.Oh, and (6) He's a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame.



Conflicted enough? You bet -- and we're just warming up.



There is no acreage in the baseball universe in which the book on Bonds is either a clean or an orderly one. It just doesn't work that way. There is simply too much Bonds, taken from too many angles, for there to be anything approaching a nice little story around which someone could tie a ribbon and wrap a bow.



Great Player Has Great Career: It makes for a neat headline. And in other news, it is a pure fiction.



Still, if you're wondering about Bonds' chances of entering Cooperstown, waste ye not another moment. He goes in. He may be withheld from a first-ballot induction by voters who wish to punish him for his misdeeds, if in fact there ever comes a clear preponderance of evidence that he used steroids in an attempt to beat the system and enhance his greatness. But he goes in.



He may, for that matter, be regarded as one of the more unpopular great players in the modern history of the game. And 50 or 75 years from now, what will that mean? It will mean he was one of the great players in the modern history of the game, is what. The rest is almost purely of the moment.



The Cincinnati Enquirer recently polled more than two dozen people who have a vote for the Hall of Fame, and with only a couple of exceptions their responses were remarkably similar to what I've described above. They may dislike Bonds personally or professionally, they may get a serious case of the queasies when wondering just how much flaxseed oil and arthritis balm Bonds has ingested over the years, but when push comes to shove, they consider him both a Hall of Fame player and a person whose records need not be accompanied by an asterisk.



As Bruce Jenkins, the erudite longtime baseball observer for the San Francisco Chronicle, explained it, "I despise Bonds, as a person, more than anyone I've covered in baseball since I started covering the major leagues in 1972. That hasn't swayed my opinion of him as a ballplayer."



Cooperstown harbors a terribly mixed lot of great performers. Some were genuinely fine human beings; some were drunks and incorrigible racists; some existed on neither fringe but rather as run-of-the-mill people, good in some areas and lousy in others. The connective tissue is excellence on the field.



Bonds poses such a special situation mostly because of the age. It is an age of questioning in baseball, questioning what is real and what is unworthy -- even questioning how much the public really wants to know about those questions.



The steroids issue is almost perfectly illustrative: Baseball's own policies toward the use of the substances have been widely dismissed as pointlessly ineffective; the cloak-and-dagger nature of the proceedings makes it impossible to know with certainty who took what and when. (There is even, in some circles, disagreement on how much difference the drugs make, though that sounds an awful lot like willful naivete on the part of those who would back players like Bonds no matter what.)



We're not even completely sure where the line is drawn between fair and foul, or why. Steroids would seem an obvious place to start, since they're illegal in the U.S. without a prescription, but what about other performance-enhancers in baseball? What about the different types of amphetamines, greenies and beanies and the like, that players have used regularly for decades to get "up" for games?



When Mark McGwire openly acknowledged using the steroid-like substance androstenedione during his takedown of the single-season home-run record held by Roger Maris, McGwire did so fully with the knowledge that andro wasn't banned by baseball -- should have been banned, but wasn't. McGwire wasn't worried about the medical implications or the fact that the substance had been disallowed by just about every other major sports sanctioning body in the world. He was worried about one thing: Getting the most out of his body for as long as it took.



There can be no asterisk on Bonds' home-run records, the Hall voters say, because if you attach an asterisk to one record (and on what basis, precisely?), then what about the others? Are Babe Ruth's homer totals to be accompanied by a note that explains he was working in a Negros-not-welcome league? Pittsburgh's Dock Ellis claimed he once pitched a no-hitter while tripping on acid. How does one denote that in the record books, exactly?



Nope, whether anyone likes it or not, the most likely result here is that Barry Bonds goes into the Hall of Fame based upon his lifetime of staggering accomplishment in the game, and that's true whether or not the voters believe that, say, Bonds' 73-homer season was partly the product of chemistry. His attitude toward teammates, his distance from the world, his statistically suspect surge in performance past age 35 -- all side notes in the larger discussion of a body of work.



The voters may not like it. In fact, based upon several of the responses available to be read, they don't like it much at all. But they recognize the reality for what it is. In the end, the numbers stand. And so will Bonds.



Mark Kreidler is a columnist with the Sacramento Bee and a regular contributor to ESPN.com. Reach him at mkreidler@sacbee.com.