Artest to Knicks rumors won't die soon

[BawLa]

The point of this trade is to get something back from whatever value Ron has. This is a rebuild and these are the types of moves we need to be making. Lets face it, he's walking anyway so lets just send him where he wants to be and take a pick and a prospect for the trouble. Getting two prospects by letting go of Ron one year early is definitely something I want.

And lets not forget, this is New York we are talking about here, a team that will likely be a .500 team. So nabbing their #15 pick wouldn't be to shabby IMO.

Now the real question is which prospect to choose from. Balkman is not a traditional Petrie guy, but Petrie did stick with Justin, and Theus wants to run so energy + rebounding are a huge plus. Imagine having Cisco slide over to the 2 when Kevin takes a breather and Balkman riding the 3 and Williams at the 4. It would be pure unadulterated energy coming off the bench. Anyway, I would be happy with Collins and/or Lee too but I really think the key to the trade would be getting their draft pick - a player likely to be better than any prospect they could give us.

 

[KingsInBrazil]

If we can get David Lee, a 1st round pick and the expiring contracts of Jones and Dickau its worth IMO but I doubt Thomas would be willing to give up "that much" and I doubt even more Petrie would accept anything other than that, so we won't be seeing any trade IMHO. I guess Ron Ron will remain a King until at least the february trade deadline.

 

[Smills91]

If we can get David Lee, a 1st round pick and the expiring contracts of Jones and Dickau its worth IMO but I doubt Thomas would be willing to give up "that much" and I doubt even more Petrie would accept anything other than that, so we won't be seeing any trade IMHO. I guess Ron Ron will remain a King until at least the february trade deadline.

It's gotten to the point where Isiah thinks his unscented crap is worth something. His roster sucks and he has exactly TWO trading assets currently on his roster. LEE/COLLINS...other than that, there is nothing on the roster that makes me say...OOOH I WANT THAT on my team!

He's delusional if he thinks he can get Artest for anything short of Lee/Collins/filler.

Last time I checked talent wins games. Last time I checked, Artest is the most talented player on our roster, and would be the most talented player on the Knicks roster as well. THey HAVE to give up their #1 asset(Lee) in order to land Artest.

 

[Smills91]

Personally, I'd rather get Balkman in a deal than Lee. Lee is a great rebounder, but that is about it from what I've seen. He doesn't have much in the way of offensive ability and isn't a very good defender. Balkman lacks an offensive game as well, but he is a high energy player who plays very good defense and can rebound very well also. I honestly believe that Balkman has the ability to become an even better defender than Artest, though he won't come close to his offensive production.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Not only is Lee a far superior rebounder, he also has a far more advnaced offensive game than Balman(which isn't saying much). Lee is a solid defender as well. I believe Lee dropped 20+/10+ on us at Arco last year. Lee is just a much better player than Balkman. Plus Lee plays a position of need for us, whereas Balkman DOESN'T. That is just too many strikes against balkman.

1) Lee is better
2) Lee plays a needed position (upgrade at PF)
3) Balkman is severely overhyped by Knicks fans(as is Lee - just more substance to his game.)

 

[bajaden]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Not only is Lee a far superior rebounder, he also has a far more advnaced offensive game than Balman(which isn't saying much). Lee is a solid defender as well. I believe Lee dropped 20+/10+ on us at Arco last year. Lee is just a much better player than Balkman. Plus Lee plays a position of need for us, whereas Balkman DOESN'T. That is just too many strikes against balkman.

1) Lee is better
2) Lee plays a needed position (upgrade at PF)
3) Balkman is severely overhyped by Knicks fans(as is Lee - just more substance to his game.)

I'm glad that someone else has actually seen Balkman play instead of just looking at stats and listening to the hype.. To say that Balkman projects to a double digit rebounder in 48 minutes means nothing. I have no doubt that J. Williams would project out to that figure also. The question is does he do enough other things to stay on the floor long enough. Petri likes players with skills, and Balkman has few. Would he be handy to have on the team, yes, but not at the price of Artest.

 

[bajaden]

Balkman and Lee stats- 2006

Gm's M/Gm's F/Pct 3pt/pct Avg OR/G TR/G Pts/48 TR/48

Balk 68 15.7 .505 .185 4.9 1.4 4.3 15.05 13.3

Lee 58 29.8 .600 .000 10.7 3.4 10.4 17.24 16.7

To put the 48 minutes in prespective, Jerome James, who we all know and love and is surely a great player would average 13.46 pts per 48 minutes played, and 11.7 rebounds per 48 minutes played. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

Some combine stats on both players:

Ht. Ht/ w/shoes Max vert Lat/mov/drill 3/4sprint class rank

Balk 6'5" 6'6.5" 35" 11.58 3.22 39th

Lee 6'8" 6'9" 32" 10.80 3.19 11th


None of these stats give you the intangables of the players, but if you haven't seen either of them play, it will give you some idea of the difference between them.

 

[Greg Ostertag]

Ok, I'm not going to get into this comparing Balkman and Lee stuff (However, for the record, I do think Lee is the better player right now, with Balkman having a higher ceiling), but I have seen Balkman play, and he is a very nice player.

The intangibles like playing hard with passion and toughness are probably what he's most known for. His defense and hustle probably as well. He goes after rebounds, he's athletic, can get the occassional block or steal. He has the POTENTIAL to become a very good, possibly even elite level defender. He is a quick player, with nice leaping abilities.

Offensively, he's lacking a shot that's for sure (and as a SF, that's definitely something he'll need to develop). The rest of his offensive game, as far as scoring goes, also needs improving. He does have solid handles and passing skills. Probably not quite up to par of a Garcia, but definitely better than KMart. I was able to watch a couple of his summer league games, and his offensive game does seem to be improving (although he obviously still lacks confidence in his shot and was playing against lesser talents).

That said with the state of the Kings right now, I'd take either Lee or Balkman in an Artest trade. They'd both become immediate fan favorites because of what they bring to the table.

 

[Bricklayer]

Gm's M/Gm's F/Pct 3pt/pct Avg OR/G TR/G Pts/48 TR/48

Balk 68 15.7 .505 .185 4.9 1.4 4.3 15.05 13.3

Lee 58 29.8 .600 .000 10.7 3.4 10.4 17.24 16.7

To put the 48 minutes in prespective, Jerome James, who we all know and love and is surely a great player would average 13.46 pts per 48 minutes played, and 11.7 rebounds per 48 minutes played. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

Some combine stats on both players:

Ht. Ht/ w/shoes Max vert Lat/mov/drill 3/4sprint class rank

Balk 6'5" 6'6.5" 35" 11.58 3.22 39th

Lee 6'8" 6'9" 32" 10.80 3.19 11th


None of these stats give you the intangables of the players, but if you haven't seen either of them play, it will give you some idea of the difference between them.

Just to clarify/underscore that:

David Lee -- 6'8"/6'9" 249lb
--slightly undersized PF, too small to play C, solid PF bulk

per48 = 17.2pts (.600 .000 .815) 16.7reb 2.9ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 2.6TO

The second number (rebounding) is enormous -- Dwight Howard averaged 16.0reb/48. Lee 16.7/48. But that's pretty much what he does. Takes no dumb shots. Has a little skill, good FT shooter, but mostly dunks, layups, and results = 60% shooting. Rebounds and hustles. Not an intimdator on defense, not a shot blocker, not an offensive goto guy. Straight forward burst fo hustle and energy on the glass.

Renaldo Balkman -- 6'6"ish 205lb
-- SF/PF, SF by size and athleticism, swings to PF on pure grit and hustle, can play some OG

per 48 = 15.1pts (.505 .185 .567) 13.3reb 2.0ast 2.6stl 2.0blk 2.2TO

Call him a SF -- his natural position -- and he was the very BEST SF rebounder in the league last year (per 48). Better than a guy like Josh Smith. Hell, better than Kenny Thomas. Better than Pau Gasol etc. etc. He gets steals, blocks shots, and generally creates havoc out there. No offensive game, but again, keeps it simple. No delusions of grandeur. Like most athletic guys with no offense, best when the game is uptempo.

Compare a guy we know who played similar minutes last year:

Balkman: 15.1pts (.505 .185 .567) 13.3reb 2.0ast 2.6stl 2.0blk 2.2TO
F.Garcia: 16.2pts (.429 .356 .833) 7.0reb 3.0ast 1.5stl 1.5blk 2.4TO

 

[BawLa]

I'm gonna say this again, New York's biggest asset to us in a trade is their first round pick. David Lee was the #30 pick in 2005, Balkman and Collins were undrafted. So unless you think that New York is going to win the East, their draft pick carries the most value. And I continue to maintain the point that the Knicks are nothing more than a .500 team with/without Artest.

If they are this heartset on Lee, **** it. Balkman has shown the ability to be a very able body, and Artest would be eating most of their SF minutes anyway. And Balkman in Sac would lite a fire under Cisco's ***.

Take Balkman, their 2008 first round pick and some enders and get 'er done.

 

[Greg Ostertag]

I'm gonna say this again, New York's biggest asset to us in a trade is their first round pick. David Lee was the #30 pick in 2005, Balkman and Collins were undrafted. So unless you think that New York is going to win the East, their draft pick carries the most value. And I continue to maintain the point that the Knicks are nothing more than a .500 team with/without Artest.

If they are this heartset on Lee, **** it. Balkman has shown the ability to be a very able body, and Artest would be eating most of their SF minutes anyway. And Balkman in Sac would lite a fire under Cisco's ***.

Take Balkman, their 2008 first round pick and some enders and get 'er done.

Well actually Balkman and Collins were both 1st rounders (I think like 20ish for Balkman and 28-29 for Collins) last year. And where they were picked has nothing to do with skill. I'll take Boozer, Redd, Gil Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili and Ben Wallace anyday -- all were either 2nd rounders or not drafted.

 

[Gary]

Artest is going nowhere. He'll be with the team when the season starts. Enough with all these rumors!

IF nothing happens when the restriction for trading for Dickau, and the other guy expire, and two weeks past w/ nothing than I will believe it's over. I REALLY want Artest out of here. I hate his play style. Does not mesh w/ the current Kings.

If we could get rid of Bibby/Miller than I wouldn't mind keeping Artest, but that is doubtful. I feel Artest can play with Martin, Garcia, Williams, and SAR just fine.

 

[Kingster]

I swear the rest of the people in the world must think that(even though he's had a FEW questionable last few trades)but do people think Petrie is stupid or something? We're not going to take JUNK for Ron...lets get that straight right now.

Junk might be the perfect word for Ron-Ron. As in junk bond, as in high risk. It's interesting how the memories of Ron-Ron's antics have seemingly evaporated into the sky. We're talking Ron Artest here. We're talking


CRAZY

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

We're talking Ron Artest here. We're talking


CRAZY

1)the 'dog' issue: he was paying someone lots of money to take care of his dogs while he was on the road, and they weren't doing their job, not Ron.

2)domestic issue with Ron and his wife: while it doesn't make it right for him to lay a finger on his wife, he's called 911 on HER a couple of times, too. Is it a normal relationship?...nope...but its nothing that we haven't already heard with pro athletes this side of Jason Kidd or Olden Polynice.

All I'm saying is that yes, Ron isn't normal in the technical definition of the word, but has he been a detriment to the team ON the court? Has he been a bad influence to our young guys like Francisco and Kevin? Nope. Last year was very tough for him and the rest of the players, fans, etc. I guess we'll see if it was just an abberation or if he actually is starting to mature as a person/player.

 

[BawLa]

Well actually Balkman and Collins were both 1st rounders (I think like 20ish for Balkman and 28-29 for Collins) last year. And where they were picked has nothing to do with skill. I'll take Boozer, Redd, Gil Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili and Ben Wallace anyday -- all were either 2nd rounders or not drafted.

Really? Well I stand corrected. ESPN's player page has UD for both of them so I assumed they were correct. Either way, my point still stands, because as you say Balkman and Collins are both picked #20 or later, and I think it is safe to assume New York isn't going to be a top 10 team. So getting their first round pick will still likely be a better prospect than Balkman, Lee or Collins.

 

[Kevin MartinFan]

1)the 'dog' issue: he was paying someone lots of money to take care of his dogs while he was on the road, and they weren't doing their job, not Ron.

2)domestic issue with Ron and his wife: while it doesn't make it right for him to lay a finger on his wife, he's called 911 on HER a couple of times, too. Is it a normal relationship?...nope...but its nothing that we haven't already heard with pro athletes this side of Jason Kidd or Olden Polynice.

All I'm saying is that yes, Ron isn't normal in the technical definition of the word, but has he been a detriment to the team ON the court? Has he been a bad influence to our young guys like Francisco and Kevin? Nope. Last year was very tough for him and the rest of the players, fans, etc. I guess we'll see if it was just an abberation or if he actually is starting to mature as a person/player.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[VF21]

All I'm saying is that yes, Ron isn't normal in the technical definition of the word, but has he been a detriment to the team ON the court? Has he been a bad influence to our young guys like Francisco and Kevin? Nope. Last year was very tough for him and the rest of the players, fans, etc. I guess we'll see if it was just an abberation or if he actually is starting to mature as a person/player.

Off-court issues can easily have on-court impact.

You're pretty much echoing what Pacer fans said back in the day. Remember, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[whozit]

You know, an interesting thing happens at the end of this month: the trade restriction on Fred Jones and Dan Dickau expires. And all of a sudden this becomes possible:

Ron Artest $7.8mil

for

Fred Jones $3.3mil (ender)
Dan Dickau $2.8mil (ender)
Nate Robinson $1.3mil (ender -- team option)
Renaldo Balkman $1.2mil (ender -- team option)
1st rnd pick

-- making sense of Bucher's rumor, and providing us with precisely the holy trinity of enders, picks and kids. A true rebuilding trade.


Questions I would have would be:
1) would Zeke give up 3 of his 4 backup PGs? If he did, it would be Nate I suppose -- I remain intrigued by Collins. Then again, likely so does Zeke, although Nate is the more proven backup. Crawford's ability to play some PG helps.
2) And if we picked up 3 PGs like that (whether the third be Nate or Collins), would that pave the way for a second deal involving Bibby?
3)Also, have lost track of what Zeke has already given away, so not sure when that 1st could come. Next year? Year after?
4) Nonetheless, ala Ainge with his youth, Zeke would have managed to turn Frye, Francis, Nate and Renaldo into Zach Randolph and Ron Artest, which ain't a bad haul. If one with a bad attitude. Bad Boys/brawling Knicks all over again.

And maybe, just mayeb, we could throw in a swap of KT or SAR for Malik Rose in as well -- shave a year off those contracts, and Rose is unquestionably a good guy. Of course beginning to add risk for the Knicks then with too many grumpy characters, or too many post players (all three of their starting frontcourt guys being post guys -- thick, physical, no scrawnies allowed, dominant inside, but too many get in each other's way).

I don't see the Knicks giving up the pick.

What I could see/hope happening is:

The Kings giving up -
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas

The Knicks giving up -
Malik Rose
Renaldo Balkman
Fred Jones
Mardy Collins ..........................Trade ID RealGM #4167254

The Kings getting young prospects of Collins and Balkman while removing the ticking sounds of Artest and the ongoing grumpiness of Thomas (plus taking a year of his contract)

The Knicks getting Artest to keep up the developments in the East at the the cost of two mid to late first round picks. Thomas or Rose? Who cares since with Randolph there possibly isn't minutes for either.

The compromise:

Kings giving up:
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas

Knicks giving up:
Malik Rose
Renaldo Balkman
Fred Jones
Dan Dickau ...........................Trade ID RealGM #4167269

Pros and cons: same as above without the sweetner or cost of Collins (depending on perspective). Many will disagree, but probably a fair trade off for both teams in terms of risk/reward.

 

[dude12]

No team that has designs or hope of the playoffs is going to take Kenny Thomas. He's an average player with a crappy attitude and a terrible contract. The only way we trade that guy is in the final year of his contract. He's here to stay...unless we buy him out and I don't think thats going to happen.

 

[Kevin MartinFan]

Off-court issues can easily have on-court impact.

You're pretty much echoing what Pacer fans said back in the day. Remember, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

We sucked on the court because the players played like garbage and musselman had no clue as to what he was doing. Ron was great on the court from January 1st until the season ended and wasnt anywhere near a ball-hog. I dont know what goes on in the lockeroom but i do know that the stuuf with the dogs was just blown WAY out of proportion.

The thing with his wife was bad but can we really say that hes blown up on us? Now i know that it it is probably best to part ways with the man just for the simple fact that hes a huge distraction but i think some can argue that Bibby has/is a huge problem here as well and not just on the court.

Ever since Webber got traded...bibby thinks hes this franchise player and kept going on on and on about his leadership skills and how he leads by example...blah blah blah.

 

[Smills91]

No team that has designs or hope of the playoffs is going to take Kenny Thomas. He's an average player with a crappy attitude and a terrible contract. The only way we trade that guy is in the final year of his contract. He's here to stay...unless we buy him out and I don't think thats going to happen.

If Mark Blount can get traded, then Kenny Thomas can be traded.

 

[Bricklayer]

Heh -- its like trying to evacuate those last stubborn resisters from the flanks of the volcano. It rumbles, and poofs out smoke, one flank is swelling, the birds have all fled, and the temperature in the lake at its base has risen 10 degrees in the last week. But nope, they ain't leaving -- its just blowing off steam.

As for the Knicks -- hard to tell. They are one of only two franchises where seeing them chancing Mt. St. Artest isn't a stretch (Miami is the other). And Bucher's rumor really isn't giving up THAT much from their perspective -- Jones and Dickau just arrived as extra baggage in the Randolph deal, so you're basically swapping Ron for Balkman, at the additional cost of Robinson, who was out of favor until this summer, and a first which you hope will be outside the lottery. There's nothing there to stop you from doing that deal if you really want to roll those Ron dice.

As for us, there SHOULD be nothing stopping us from doing that deal either. It gives us eveyrthing you look for in these type deals -- enders, picks, kids. And Ron's departure is addition by subtraction on several different levels. Frees up minutes and shots for Cisco, Kevin, and Balkman. And likely shaves some wins off and gives you a better shot at one of the top studs in next year's draft. meanwhile it frees you of your biggest public relations problem, and eliminates the biggest challenge and potential headache facing your rookie coach. Meanwhile you get back a bunch of pieces which truly ARE "flexible". Enders have trade value, and can help grease in season moves, kids that eitehr impress or turn into enders themselves. A pick to be used or combined to move up. Its all good.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Off-court issues can easily have on-court impact.

You're pretty much echoing what Pacer fans said back in the day. Remember, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Yeah, I know...I guess I'm just in denial. I like to think that Ron is taking the C-Webb route, bad past...come here...good present. Totally different scenario, I know.

 

[gunks]

Alls I know is that I would NOT mind Balkman coming here at all...I aint going to hold my breath for it to happen, but if it does...



PS: I dont want Lee, you guys can say what you want but I've already decided that Justin Williams is better then him!!

 

[LPKingsFan]

PS: I dont want Lee, you guys can say what you want but I've already decided that Justin Williams is better then him!!

Who said we can't have both?

Especially if we're building around Hawes in the middle, we're probably going to need as many rebounding specialists we can get.

 

[Smills91]

Who said we can't have both?

Especially if we're building around Hawes in the middle, we're probably going to need as many rebounding specialists we can get.

Great point...Balman AND Lee with expirings would actually be a LOT closer to fair value for Ron.

 

[gunks]

Great point...Balman AND Lee with expirings would actually be a LOT closer to fair value for Ron.

Considering Zeke said he wouldnt part with either I dont think he'd be too quick to part with both...

...Then again, it is Isiah. Maybe he'll get a bit rash trying to keep up with the Celtics

 

[Smills91]

Considering Zeke said he wouldnt part with either I dont think he'd be too quick to part with both...

...Then again, it is Isiah. Maybe he'll get a bit rash trying to keep up with the Celtics

He also said Frye was UNTOUCHABLE for a KG trade a year or so ago. He's an idiot and thinks that if he overrates his youth, that it'll increase their trade value or something.

 

[Kings113]

1)the 'dog' issue: he was paying someone lots of money to take care of his dogs while he was on the road, and they weren't doing their job, not Ron.

2)domestic issue with Ron and his wife: while it doesn't make it right for him to lay a finger on his wife, he's called 911 on HER a couple of times, too. Is it a normal relationship?...nope...but its nothing that we haven't already heard with pro athletes this side of Jason Kidd or Olden Polynice.

All I'm saying is that yes, Ron isn't normal in the technical definition of the word, but has he been a detriment to the team ON the court? Has he been a bad influence to our young guys like Francisco and Kevin? Nope. Last year was very tough for him and the rest of the players, fans, etc.

Well said. And I actually didn't know that about the dog situation. Proving what I thought back around then was a legit possibility - in that there could of been something else there why that happened, wasn't reported originally. Either the media didn't know of it till later, or was conveniently and pathetically ignored.

The problem with his wife didn't effect his game on the court. Maybe one game at Atlanta (everyone played off from normal but the younger bench guys), but that's it.

 

[SacKings7]

Well said. And I actually didn't know that about the dog situation. Proving what I thought back around then was a legit possibility - in that there could of been something else there why that happened, wasn't reported originally. Either the media didn't know of it till later, or was conveniently and pathetically ignored.

The problem with his wife didn't effect his game on the court. Maybe one game at Atlanta (everyone played off from normal but the younger bench guys), but that's it.

That's just it. He can do that to teams by disrupting their chemistry...just ask Pacer fans

 

[D13]

That's just it. He can do that to teams by disrupting their chemistry...just ask Pacer fans

Ya, the Pacers have been much better the last 1+1/2yrs Ronrons been gone...