Darth Divac
Bench
My opinion of TD is massively improved. Thread closed.
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Aparrently, Toney Douglas is better than Jimmer
- Thread starter Darth Divac
- Start date
Yeah? Jimmer is not a very good player. He can shoot 3's and make free throws. That's it.
Douglas shoots 3's and free throws at a slightly lower clip than Jimmer but he's actually a plus defender and is better at handling the ball.
It's like going from Jason Hart to Ronnie Price. The team still sucks.
Douglas shoots 3's and free throws at a slightly lower clip than Jimmer but he's actually a plus defender and is better at handling the ball.
It's like going from Jason Hart to Ronnie Price. The team still sucks.
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Keith Smart is an idiot.
What you didn't include in the comparison is that Jimmer's play has been with the Kings. If Douglas had played all year with the Kings, he might be gone by now. No one is better who has spent their whole time under Smart.
Jimmer will prove his ability under a new coach and system. We've seen glimpses of his ability, but his confidence/play has suffered so much under Smart's inconsistencies of rotations and lack of system...for example running plays where Jimmer catches and shoots or off screens. It just hasn't been coached.
Jimmer will prove his ability under a new coach and system. We've seen glimpses of his ability, but his confidence/play has suffered so much under Smart's inconsistencies of rotations and lack of system...for example running plays where Jimmer catches and shoots or off screens. It just hasn't been coached.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I think what is odd about Jimmer is that his one major skill seems to have left him. He still can shoot better than most of the Kings but he should be the best shooter. At the beginning of this season he looked very good but poof! he lost it. I think the people who didn't see him in college simply don't understand the possibilities he has. I don't think the NBA has changed where the basket is (remember "Hoosiers?") but he seems so unsettled.
He is not a PG in the classical sense. He is very vulnerable bringing the ball up the court if not downright clumsy but once across the half court line, he seems more comfortable. A motion offense would suit him but this STILL "hand the ball to a guy and have him go 1 x 1" offense is silly. Jimmer can't do that. I know this may sound stupid but I think he can be decent because of his willingness to pass but just don't put him in a position where he has to dribble. Maybe that's not possible but if placed next to Tyreke, let Tyreke act as PG but then dish the ball to Jimmer once in a half court set. I don't think we give up on this guy and I base that mostly on his uncanny college shooting. Stupid judgment? Maybe.
Douglas seems to be a better all around player except for shooting. I'm a little surprised. Not a world beater but OK for a crappy team.
Draft or trade for a damn good PG, unload IT in the process, and the guard mess is pretty much settled. Dumping Brooks was the first decent basketball move in a long time.
He is not a PG in the classical sense. He is very vulnerable bringing the ball up the court if not downright clumsy but once across the half court line, he seems more comfortable. A motion offense would suit him but this STILL "hand the ball to a guy and have him go 1 x 1" offense is silly. Jimmer can't do that. I know this may sound stupid but I think he can be decent because of his willingness to pass but just don't put him in a position where he has to dribble. Maybe that's not possible but if placed next to Tyreke, let Tyreke act as PG but then dish the ball to Jimmer once in a half court set. I don't think we give up on this guy and I base that mostly on his uncanny college shooting. Stupid judgment? Maybe.
Douglas seems to be a better all around player except for shooting. I'm a little surprised. Not a world beater but OK for a crappy team.
Draft or trade for a damn good PG, unload IT in the process, and the guard mess is pretty much settled. Dumping Brooks was the first decent basketball move in a long time.
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See: JJ Redick. He does exactly what you described Jimmer should be doing
PurpleHaze
All-Star
And no one mentions defense?
Tony Douglas is FAR better defender than Fredette. Watch TD as he often gets right up in the face of his man, often picking him up in backcourt because he's quick enough to do it very effectively. He's tougher than Jimmer and makes better defensive reads than the second year player. Jimmer has good potential and maybe should be playing more just to see if he can learn to play better D. But right now, because of his significantly better defense, his more than adequate offense as experienced NBA PG, Douglas is simply better overall.
Tony Douglas is FAR better defender than Fredette. Watch TD as he often gets right up in the face of his man, often picking him up in backcourt because he's quick enough to do it very effectively. He's tougher than Jimmer and makes better defensive reads than the second year player. Jimmer has good potential and maybe should be playing more just to see if he can learn to play better D. But right now, because of his significantly better defense, his more than adequate offense as experienced NBA PG, Douglas is simply better overall.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I don't know why this is so inconceivable. People really have to let the Jimmer thing go after a while. Douglas is no stud, but he has been a modestly productive player in his first couple of seasons in the league, at least on the same general scale as Jimmer, with some defense.
Jimmer Rookie:
18.6min 7.6pts (.386 .361 .833) 1.2reb 1.8ast 0.5stl 0.0blk 1.1TO
Jimmer Sophomore:
14.5min 7.2pts (.410 .421 .897) 1.1reb 1.4ast 0.4stl 0.1blk 1.0TO
Douglas career:
20.6min 8.7pts (.405 .356 .827) 2.3reb 2.4ast 0.9stl 0.0blk 1.2TO
At a certain point its prety clear that what people are seeing is not Jimmer out on the court but a myth/college legend. Smart on the other hand only has a player to coach.
Jimmer Rookie:
18.6min 7.6pts (.386 .361 .833) 1.2reb 1.8ast 0.5stl 0.0blk 1.1TO
Jimmer Sophomore:
14.5min 7.2pts (.410 .421 .897) 1.1reb 1.4ast 0.4stl 0.1blk 1.0TO
Douglas career:
20.6min 8.7pts (.405 .356 .827) 2.3reb 2.4ast 0.9stl 0.0blk 1.2TO
At a certain point its prety clear that what people are seeing is not Jimmer out on the court but a myth/college legend. Smart on the other hand only has a player to coach.
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Henkel
Starter
Well said.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Tell me one thing I have said about Jimmer that is inaccurate. You are getting to be like the very famous posters in this forum who have the one player they want to pick on whenever the opportunity arises. It's getting tiring. We have a right to hope that our players get good enough to contribute. Your list of stats prove nothing in this case as certainly I never said Jimmer was better than Douglas. He isn't. He can contribute however and you cannot predetermine his future by blasting us with stats from the past.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
People can hope all they want. But hoping and getting upset at roster decisions which don't favor a 40% shooting guard with defensive and ballhandling issues are two different things. The coach lives in a real world where results matter,a dn frankly dumb as a post as he is, Smart has given Jimmer far more opportunities as a backup PG especially than almost any other coach would have done. Game after struggling game it goes on.
gatoradeSD
G-League
I think you need to let the hate go. Take it out on Johnson or someone that actually sucks
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Do the statistcs hate Jimmer too? Maybe the other teams who keep picking on his handle and defense? The world is full of meanies. I just report on it.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I'm not so stupid not to know that but I think you aren't aware that most of your comments outside of the grading sessions are negative as if to lecture us just like a few unmentionable people we have hanging around here. If your comments are noteworthy to me they are noteworthy to others as I am 99% on your side in what you write. These shots at Jimmer are not typical of you.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
If you are trying to feed off what I wrote, you are off base.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
If you are criticizing me, have the courage to write straight to me. The fact that what you are saying has very little to do with what I wrote is a different issue.
kingsnation
All-Star
Re: The title of this thread.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
kingsnation
All-Star
If Jimmer becomes JJ Redick one day, I would consider the choice to draft him only a half-mistake.
Heuge
Starter
Hmmm...Tyreke has just a bit more going for him then Jimmer at the moment.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Jimmer is NEVER going to a be a star player, and everyone knows that. With the right coach and a system that makes sense, however, he can be a deadly offensive weapon... the kind of shooter that creates momentum or stops opponent streaks. A guy you can put in at the end of games to make 3 point attempts or to draw defenders away. Put the right players around him that can make up for his defensive deficiencies and he could be special. Guys with his shooting ability don't come around every day. When you have a coach who is stupid enough to put him out there with players like chuck hayes and marcus thorton as well as making him a primary ball handler he is going to fail.
Henkel
Starter
More just being condescending in general to the notion that Jimmer is somehow a victim here and that his critics are just jerks who are rooting against a nice young man. It's a pervasive attitude around here, although maybe not your point. Seems to me Jimmer has far more support then he warrants and Bricks "picking" on Jimmer is actually more consistent with the reality of the situation.
Not arguing that Jimmer should be used off the ball. Not that you care, or should, but I talked about how that type role would be good for Jimmer since the day he was drafted. He was never going to be PG and the Stockton/Nash talk had more to do with peoples image of him, which includes race and persona, then his abilities. Not that we want to address that elephant, considering where that conversation could lead.
UK_King
Starter
I think the only reason, and i do agree, that people hang on to the Jimmer "hope" is that we are still yet to see him used in a way in which many think would be more productive.
It's not about hate, it's a fact Jimmer hasn't produced, but i still think he's playing anti to his skill set, as our basically all of our players.
If we're going to cut the others some slack on that notion mayaswell extend it Jimmers way too. I still like to think in a proper system, used the right way, Jimmer could come in and give you a scoring punch off the bench.
It's not about hate, it's a fact Jimmer hasn't produced, but i still think he's playing anti to his skill set, as our basically all of our players.
If we're going to cut the others some slack on that notion mayaswell extend it Jimmers way too. I still like to think in a proper system, used the right way, Jimmer could come in and give you a scoring punch off the bench.
Well yes definitely. Personally I think Jimmer can be a good player in the league, much the same way that Redick is (to answer Glenn: if Jimmer could play like Redick I'd consider it a good thing). But I certainly don't think Jimmer is going to become a star player like his crazy fans claim, always using his PER 36 and efficiency and what not, and then defending his low assist numbers because he rarely gets to control the ball. This doesn't happen so much on this forum but you read a whole lot of it in comments on other Kings blog sites. But as UK_King has rightly said, many of our players are being used contrary to their skill set, and outside of games themselves the Kings organization does a bad job developing young players.
The way I see it, you have to consider what the FO was expecting out of Jimmer (other than selling more tickets). I thought he was brought in to replace Beno, but so far we haven't put him in that secondary ballhandler role next to Tyreke, and on his end he hasn't shown the ability to handle the ball at a level even close to a backup PG. He's shown good instincts in making the right play and moving the ball, but just somehow never looks comfortable as a ballhandler whenever the defense puts pressure on him.
I haven't actually watched the Magic play much this season or last, but when they were in the finals and some of the years after Nelson was the primary ballhandler. Redick's job was to come off screens, making only a few dribbles and then passing it off. His ability to shoot spaced the floor and allowed him to have good open passing lanes for him to make the right play. He also tried very hard to chase Ray Allen around in the ECFs and did a moderately decent job of it. That sounds like a pretty suitable role for Jimmer if you ask me.
King Baller
All-Star
Lets see here.....why don't we compare a 5th year NBA player (player A) to a 2nd year player (player B).
1) Player A has 3 full NBA seasons to develop when the lock out shortened season happened that welcomed player B to his rookie year.
2) Player A is on his 3rd NBA team having played for a pretty good variety of coaches. Including one who is HOF as a player. Player B has been in Sacto playing for the Maloofs and Smart.
3) Player A was known as a defensive force in college. Player B was an offensive force in college.
IMHO we are comparing apples to oranges here. I like both these guys and they are definitely at different stages of development with Toney having a 3 year edge in age and NBA experience.
KB
1) Player A has 3 full NBA seasons to develop when the lock out shortened season happened that welcomed player B to his rookie year.
2) Player A is on his 3rd NBA team having played for a pretty good variety of coaches. Including one who is HOF as a player. Player B has been in Sacto playing for the Maloofs and Smart.
3) Player A was known as a defensive force in college. Player B was an offensive force in college.
IMHO we are comparing apples to oranges here. I like both these guys and they are definitely at different stages of development with Toney having a 3 year edge in age and NBA experience.
KB
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