About LA's loss to Spurs

VF21 · Nov 6, 2004

• Kobe being blocked inside
• Kobe having the ball stolen by Manu
• Kobe screaming at the officials
• Kobe trying to do it all
• Kobe's little temper tantrums and facial contortions when things don't go his way are going to get very old very quickly.

Okay, that's pretty much my assessment. Other random thoughts:

I thought it interesting that when Jim Gray interviewed Vlade, our former center found a way to say something nice about Sacramento.

Spurs are gonna be tough.

Rudy T. is definitely NOT Phil Jackson.

One prediction:

At some point this year, Jack Nicholson is going to be ejected from Staples for going onto the court and screaming obscenities at the officials.

HndsmCelt · Nov 6, 2004

Funny you should start this thread. While watching the game last night I could not help but think of a particulary onery cat I had who was about the toughest hunter I have ever seen. She Loved to catch squirles, gophers and espcially rats (not mice) and drag them home more often than not alive. The real fun for her was when the rats would try to fight back, she would play with them for hours just letting them almost escape before making a tremendous leap nailing them right in the back of the neck (as far as I could see she never got bit back) Then once the prey gave up it was dinner. Not only did the Spurs remind me of Vivian (the cat) but Kobe's little tantrums, over blown theatrics and attempts o single handedly challange the Spurs (espcialy his little exchange with a real MVP) reminded me of a few of those rats.
PS I was honeslty thinking the same thing about Jack... When he does get ejectd he can call Jimmy Buffett to commiserate.

quick dog · Nov 6, 2004

HndsmCelt said:

Funny you should start this thread. While watching the game last night I could not help but think of a particulary onery cat I had who was about the toughest hunter I have ever seen. She Loved to catch squirles, gophers and espcially rats (not mice) and drag them home more often than not alive. The real fun for her was when the rats would try to fight back, she would play with them for hours just letting them almost escape before making a tremendous leap nailing them right in the back of the neck (as far as I could see she never got bit back) Then once the prey gave up it was dinner. Not only did the Spurs remind me of Vivian (the cat) but Kobe's little tantrums, over blown theatrics and attempts o single handedly challange the Spurs (espcialy his little exchange with a real MVP) reminded me of a few of those rats.
PS I was honeslty thinking the same thing about Jack... When he does get ejectd he can call Jimmy Buffett to commiserate.

Wow, what a vivid analogy. No quarter whatsoever.

Bricklayer · Nov 6, 2004

Of course given our own performance against the Spurs I don't feel too much like crowing.

Lakers actually look ok so far. About what I suspected. Whether they barely make the playoffs or barely miss depends on whether Kobe wises up or not.

VF21 · Nov 6, 2004

I'm simply reporting what I saw and reflecting ... that unless Kobe can learn to share - something I have sincere doubts about - his team is not gonna be able to compete at the top level.

VF21 · Nov 6, 2004

The Spurs impressed the heck out of me, but then I was expecting them to be good - and I still wish we could have taken a chance at getting Brent Barry. But, considering the potential for home-town guy Matt Barnes, it might work out just as well the way things are.

Any team that wants to beat the Spurs this year is gonna have to bring their A game - period. Anything less just won't cut it.

*Serbprincess* · Nov 6, 2004

That was very detailed, i was trying not to picture it in my head...

I agree, his ego's in the way...and it always will be, you can put him on any team, get any coach but he will never learn to share...

Gargamel · Nov 6, 2004

VF21 said:

Not feeling this one. What has he not been sharing so far? I think he's being too passive.

Gargamel · Nov 6, 2004

VF21 said:

Well, I guess it is kind of aggravating when your opponent can call timeouts without having the ball, but the game was already decided so Kobe could've just as easily blown it off.

No ref is going to have the sac to eject Jack. They realize the hype that would cause. Calvin Klein walked out on the court to talk to Sprewell and was ushered back to his seat. Normal earthlings aren't afforded such leeway. Another thing, the last three times Jack has yelled profanities at the refs, the opponent has been SA. Coincidence? I lean towards no.

[edit]- I remembered something else. When it filtered back to Jack that he could've been ejected in a previous game, he said, "If they ask me to leave, I'm not going anywhere." I think he'd cause a good scene on his way out. I'll give props to any ref that wants that kind of notoriety. Like I said...no sac, and that extends to the way that they sometimes call games.

And in related news, this no forearm rule on the perimeter is totally unfair. Players consistently pick up fouls on that BS while they are still allowed to get hacked under the rim. I don't get it. Why the hell should guards be completely shackled on defense? At any other place on the court, refs have very unique interpretations as to what constitutes "incidental contact".

4cwebb · Nov 6, 2004

Something I found interesting: NBA.com pimped this game as a potential preview of the WCF finals. Now, I'll admit that stories of the Lakers' demise are clearly premature and probably exaggerated, but to push the Lakers for the WCF over the Twolves or Mavs at this point in the season seems odd to me.

As for the game, I didn't expect the Lakers to win, but I was at least impressed with their effort for portions of the game. Can't say the same for the Kings against the Spurs at almost any point in that game after the first quarter.

sloter · Nov 6, 2004

Bricklayer said:

It also might depend on whether the Kings wise up or not.

KA_2 · Nov 6, 2004

VF, you're greatly exaggerating any negative effect Kobe had on the Lakers last night, however much you'd like to believe it. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the Lakers had won if Vlade had played, all they needed was better ball movement on offense to beat the Spurs last night. Could you say the same about the Kings-Spurs game a few days ago?

Evenstar · Nov 6, 2004

now i didn't see the kings/spurs game, but i was VERY impressed with the spurs last night. the spurs look to me like they will not only win the west, but the championship ( sorry detriot, i don't think sheed and big ben are going to be able to stop duncan) last year, i remember saying how boring i thought the spurs were, but they looked more exciting to me in the playoffs and this year ( so far) manu and parker are FUN to watch. duncan isn't themost excting, but hey he gets the job done. even rasho joined in the party, which bummed me out a bit, since i won't be hearing screaming a smith say "raaaaaaasho" like he did last year. i just LOVED that

manu is just awesome. my friend and i had a discussion about the finals ( we both think it'll be spurs and pistons) and he started laughing at me when i was saying that manu was going to stop hamilton. well i've changed that to who's going to stop who. if these teams meet in the finals, they'll probably cancel each other out.

and it's always nice seeing the lakers lose

so much for mihm the all star!

and one last thing, i couldn't believe some of the stuff bowen was getting away with last night. he was pansing kobe and NOTHING happened. ah well, i should just expect this i guess. i guess props to bowen for getting away with it.....

Gargamel · Nov 6, 2004

Evenstar said:

Easily. Barry is just another weapon, btw. The West playoff teams better pray he goes in a typical Spurs 3-pt playoff shooting slump because you can't leave him alone to clog the lane on Manu or Parker.

4cwebb · Nov 7, 2004

I'd actually be very interested in seeing a Pistons vs. Spurs championship (since it appears the Kings are NOT title-quality material at the moment), mainly b/c I'd like to see if Tim can do it all by himself against the Wallaces. Shaq couldn't really do it, and he's much more of an immovable force that Duncan.

Not to mention that Manu is no Kobe, so I don't see Hamilton or Prince having difficulty playing well against him. The thing the Spurs have that the Lakers didn't (and don't) is an All-Star level PG, which will force Chauncey to play much more defense against the high pick and roll than he did against the Lakers in last year's Finals.

But that scenario is still almost 100 games away.

Gargamel · Nov 7, 2004

Here's probably the most earnest, least side-taking article on either Kobe or Shaq that has EVER come out of the LA Times. ...since this IS a Laker-related thread...

Bryant's Vision Gets Blurry Over Years
November 7, 2004
By Mark Heisler

Where have you gone, Kobe Bryant?

Eight years and so many adventures and misadventures later, it's hard to remember him as the Golden Child when he was 17 and Laker, Clipper and Phoenix Sun officials all called his workouts the best they'd ever seen.

He was poised and well-mannered. He handled a press schedule as heavy as Magic Johnson's so gracefully, everyone said the same thing: Don't ever change.

At 19, Bryant dueled Michael Jordan in the 1998 All-Star game, taking eight shots in his first 11 touches and starting a veterans' backlash.

The Lakers were aghast, but everyone else thought it was good clean fun. As NBC boss Dick Ebersol noted: "Promoting Kobe is no different than what we were doing promoting Michael in 1990. Business is business."

Two weeks later, a league official showed up in the Forum and was asked about hyping Bryant.

Sighed the official: "Wasn't he great?"

No one ever changed more than Bryant, which was inevitable. No NBA star ever took a fall like his, which wasn't inevitable but is hardly uncommon in the age of the teenage idol.

Sonny Vacarro, the sneaker maven who signed Bryant for Adidas, fell out of orbit along with several other original mentors. Now Vacarro compares him to the Yankees' Derek Jeter when he thinks what could have been.

"Jeter's lovable," Vacarro says. "He comes through in the clutch. Nobody doesn't like Derek Jeter. Kobe would have had his face on Mt. Rushmore, if he stayed who he was at 17."

Bryant wasn't the only Laker diva. Shaquille O'Neal didn't come here to share the stage and hinted for years about going back to Orlando. Phil Jackson had a love/hate thing with fame and mused annually that his players might no longer want him to coach them, which was another way of saying he might not want to coach them.

Each was OK with leaving the other two. It came down to who was courted, who was told to take a hike, whose feelings were hurt and who was left to face the music.

Nevertheless, if Bryant's not in a happy place, he's the one who got himself here, not Jackson, O'Neal or the press.

Once poised and low-key, Bryant is imperious and edgy. He's still enough of a stand-up guy to talk after every game, but his ease and grace with the media are gone. He bristles at tough questions and sometimes cuts the session short.

In Friday's loss to the San Antonio Spurs, he got into an argument with Tim Duncan, with whom he was always friendly. Duncan thought Bryant threw an elbow. Bryant thought Duncan was gloating about beating on them.

Asked about it later, Bryant asked, "That's your first question?"

Of course, if you don't want to be asked about arguing with opponents, you shouldn't be arguing with opponents.

Laker staffers say he's better with this team. The game and his family remain Bryant's refuges, but the problem is that he still needs refuges.

In a cautionary tale for the young and gifted, his life has been tumultuous for years.

He was still living at home in his first two seasons, like Ricky Nelson, who may have been a rock star but was still Little Ricky in "The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet."

Bryant worried only what his family thought, and they doted on him. If he thought he was destined to rule the world, they couldn't see what was wrong with having a dream.

His parents made it clear he wouldn't run the streets with the guys, not that he wanted to. He separated himself without discomfort. He never understood why teammates were offended by his isolation.

It was what made him so powerful and so alone. He wasn't like them. No one was like him.

He was eager for knowledge, sitting at his mentors' feet, but the process was selective. He was in charge and, as his fame rocketed, running out of humility. He didn't fear failure and took responsibility when he was wrong, but it was hard for him to figure out when he was wrong.

Anything he didn't want to hear, such as, "You're not ready," or "We can't put you in the post because we have Shaq," he filed, along with all the advice he got to go to college because there was no way a skinny 18-year-old guard could make it in the NBA.

He was so strong, he could even break with his family after he became engaged to Vanessa Laine in 2000, when the real tumult began.

Now out of legal jeopardy, Bryant is trying to put his life back together, but the game is no longer the easy part. Even if better days are coming, it won't be soon.

In two years, people will be used to the idea O'Neal and Jackson are gone, the Laker rebuilding project might be further along, and Shaq may be back up to 350.

For the moment, Bryant is stuck in the West, where you have to be really good to win 45 games. Meanwhile, O'Neal gets to romp around the East, unless his hamstring goes and it turns out his conditioning program started too late in life.

Bryant once charmed every media person he met. Now he's down to a handful of us who ever see the old Kobe.

When he re-signed in July, he pulled me aside to ask why people were saying he ran Jackson and O'Neal off. He didn't think of it that way — he thought he was going to be the one to go — and he has little awareness of perspectives other than his own.

He also hears what he wants to hear. I remember telling him something he didn't want to hear one day. He looked away and didn't say anything.

"Did I upset you?" I asked.

"I tuned you out," he said.

In fact, the Clippers' Mike Dunleavy, among others, warned him if he stayed with the Lakers, he'd hear about Jackson and O'Neal forever. There was a reason Dunleavy said it, but he was right.

Bryant is trying to repair relations with his parents and sisters. It hasn't happened yet, but they still miss each other, so they have a chance.

He'd like his endorsement cachet back, but he'll have to understand that's not a given. At 17, he was a youth icon but seven years later, he was like a middle-aged man to teens, which was why LeBron James, at 19, got a Nike deal twice as big as his.

No one argues with the notion Bryant is one of the all-time greats, but many think he's selfish. Seattle's Ray Allen proclaimed that in another controversy, which Bryant really didn't want to be asked about.

On the other hand, lots of young players are caught up in themselves and grow out of it, as Jordan did and Bryant is trying to do.

Now, on what is thought to be his ego trip, Bryant has taken a total of 22 shots in the first halves of the Lakers' first three games, although they were getting bombed in two of them. His restraint is exemplary, but losing is hard, which is one reason he was in Duncan's face.

No matter what Bryant does, the Lakers won't win as many as they used to, so he'll have to be able to handle people saying this is what he wanted and this is what he got.

Actually, this isn't what he wanted, and he knew it might not fly. As he said last summer, "We don't have the most dominant player in the game, so that's going to change things drastically."

He was down to two choices to try to get to what he wanted, a championship team of his own. He could trust the Lakers to rebuild around him or join the Clippers, who had a better team on one hand, and Donald T. Sterling on the other.

The Shaq-Kobe era had limped as far as it could. Kobe was a free agent. Shaq wanted an extension. Something had to give — and it was the Lakers as we knew them.

That soap opera that got so old looks pretty good now, doesn't it? Ah, those were the days.

Despite the pressure he was under, Bryant kept his poise last season but was taken by surprise when he came back and had to relive it this season. After getting bashed daily by O'Neal and Jackson, he was going to make this fly if he had to sprout wings.

A destiny still awaits Bryant. It will never be the way he imagined it, but it can be better than the destiny he just realized.

He has to understand that, take a deep breath and relax. Otherwise, the way it is is the way it will be, give or take a few wins.

In any case, the Lakers' most important rebuilding project is the one in his head.

VF21 · Nov 7, 2004

KA_2 said:

1. This isn't about the Kings-Spurs.
2. You, AS A LAKER FAN, think I'm greatly exaggerating any negative effect Kobe had. That's fine... I stand by my comments. Kobe Bryant, IMHO, is a very talented young man who has an ego the size of New Jersey. He wants to do it all; he wants to prove he can be a better leader for the Lakers than Shaq. He wants to make the Lakers HIS team and HIS alone. Let's revisit this conversation in a few months. If I'm wrong, I'll say so. I fully expect you to agree to do the same.

VF21 · Nov 7, 2004

That's a VERY telling statement. As far as I know, the one thing Tim Duncan has never done is gloat... and for Bryant to think that's what was happening is, IMHO, a classic case of him (KB) projecting how he would have acted onto someone else (TD).

HndsmCelt · Nov 7, 2004

You would think that by now Kobe might have figgured out that more than a few palyer in the NBA take exception to his elbows. Roumer has it last season Malone even said, "Kid watch the bows, you realy are palying dirty, and dont let your mouth write a check that Shaq's butt can't cash." Ok he COULD have said it...

Padrino · Nov 7, 2004

VF21 said:

i think yer pretty close to being right on in your kobe assessment. i think its very conceivable that kobe bryant will lead the league in scoring this season, but that the lakers will miss the playoffs. but i dont think he'll care. this season, and maybe even next season, are kobe's seasons. they are for him to pad his stats, while the team rebuilds around him. ya see, this isnt a t-mac kinda situation. tracy mcgrady wanted to get on a title-contending team. he was tired of putting up superstar numbers night in and night out only to come up short and lose. i think it was a bit arrogant and selfish of him to go about it the way he did, but ya cant blame him for it. i dont. he led that team for several years, and saw squat from management as far as quality support.

kobe, on the other hand, had that support. now he's got three rings and he's, what, 24 years old? lets say it takes the lakers 4 years tops to rebuild. he's still only 28, and probably right at or around his prime (which is a scary thought, if ya ask me). i think its selfish and arrogant of him to drive phil and shaq away, and basically demand that it be all about him, but i wouldnt write the lakers off any time in the near future, and i wouldnt be lookin for kobe bryant to be askin for a trade anytime soon, not that anybody could afford that contract, anyways.

Lamar_Odom · Nov 7, 2004

This thread is written like no other player played in that game. Overall, the Lakers showed after being dominated that they can still come back from a huge deficit against top teams. How come nobody talked about Lamar Odom? He had a coming out party that game.

Gargamel · Nov 7, 2004

Lamar_Odom said:

Quit handle-dropping, Lamar.

vladetomiller · Nov 8, 2004

Padrino said:

You havent seen many of the nba salaries i suppose

1. shaq
2. dikembe
3. allan houston/chris webber
5. garnett
6. damon stoudamire
...
21. tmac
22. duncan
23. kobe

Now do you think he is tradable with atleast one of those guys in between 6 and 20

.

HndsmCelt · Nov 8, 2004

Lamar_Odom said:

I should have guessed from the first name Lamar... oh well good for him. I sincelry hope that someday he will be allowed to legally marry any one he choses, after all isn't that what freedom is really all about?

vladetomiller · Nov 8, 2004

Question is, will he have freedom after marriage

VF21 · Nov 8, 2004

Lamar_Odom said:

Hey, my thread, my focus.

When people think about the Lakers, ONE NAME comes to mind right now and it isn't...brace yourself...Lamar Odom. Will it be in the future? Who knows. A big part of that will be whether or not the mercurial Mr. Bryant can stand to share the spotlight ONCE AGAIN. I'm thinking it's gonna be tough.

Do I really care? Nah. I have enough to occupy my time with the current rumors, innuendos, blatant mis-statements, etc. about my own favorite team. Talking about the Lakers, quite honestly, falls into the "temporary comic relief" category!

GO KINGS!!!

HndsmCelt · Nov 8, 2004

vladetomiller said:

Ha! I compleetly agree. My position has always been why should only straight men be misseralbe and pay alimoney!

About LA's loss to Spurs

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