A Stats Thread: What the Numbers Say About Rondo and Gay

funkykingston said:
Right now the Kings have $60,424,376 in definite contracts for next season.

Acy & Curry have already opted out. Butler and Anderson still have player options that would total $2,690,782. Dukan has a non-guaranteed contract which can be waived if needed.

That means if Butler and Anderson don't opt out the Kings will have $63,115,158 in contracts for next season.

Because Wayne Ellington was waived under the stretch provision, he'll cost the Kings $882,630 in cap room but this (I believe) is the last year he will.

That makes it $63,997,788 or JUST under $64 million in contracts.

Then there's a cap hold for the Kings rookie. Assuming they stay in the 8th slot and keep their pick, there's a cap hold at 100% of the rookie scale or $2,451,200

So the grand total is $66,448.988 or so

With the cap at $92 million that means the Kings go into the offseason with $25.5 million in cap room.

It's true that both Rondo and Moreland have cap holds ($11.4 million and $1.2 million respectively) but those are pretty irrelevant. If the Kings re-sign Rondo then the cap hold doesn't mean anything and if they go in a different direction and don't re-sign him then it doesn't mean anything.

So while technically the Kings will start the offseason with just under $13 million in cap room, it's the $25.5 million that really matters.

So re-signing Rondo (at say $15 million) would still leave the Kings with $10 million but that's not a ton in this summer of skyrocketing salaries.

But there are plenty of moves the Kings could make to open up more caproom if so desired.

So yes, absent of other moves, re-upping Rondo would handcuff Vlade in terms of signing other impact free agents but we'll have to see how the summer plays out.
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Thanks!
 
hrdboild said:
They're not hiding anything, it's pretty damn obvious. I remember user names and what people have written before.
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You truly are the detective you avatar depict :)

IfAt1st said:
Why would signing Rondo take most of our cap space?

Rondo made $10 mill this year - let's say he signs for $14 - that's only $4 mill more.

I'm pretty sure the cap is going up much more than $4 million......
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Yes only it doesn't make sense- we have no bird rights on him so he's basically a free agent for cap purposes- so if we'll sign him to a 14 million dollar contract he will take.... 14 million of our cap space.
 
This team has more needs than PG. I think a quality SG and someone
Amit149 said:
You truly are the detective you avatar depict :)



Yes only it doesn't make sense- we have no bird rights on him so he's basically a free agent for cap purposes- so if we'll sign him to a 14 million dollar contract he will take.... 14 million of our cap space.
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Which would be a poor investment considering the Kings have much bigger needs at SG and PF who can stretch the floor.
 
randymoss1881 said:
According to guys on realgm Joerger was on Rome and it seems from tht like Rondo won't be back and thy he wants Ben to play next year. Probably means we are switching Rondo for Anderson which I'm 100% for.
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What in the world is the fascination with Ben? He's had 3 seasons (mostly as a starter nonetheless) to prove himself and hasn't. What Ben is lacking is the stuff between the ears. He's a teddy bear in a world filled with grizzly bears ... you can't teach that kind of stuff. Boggles my mind. On Rondo I am kind of split, mostly because he's one of my favorite players. However, as great as this season was for him, we suffered a lot on the defensive side of the floor with him out there. DC may be half the player Rondo is in terms of talent and ability to lead the team, but he fits better (mostly because of his ability to hit the outside shot consistently). Maybe a sign and trade with Rondo could net us something in return... I'll gladly leave that one up to Vlade!
 
Sac.Kings said:
What in the world is the fascination with Ben? He's had 3 seasons (mostly as a starter nonetheless) to prove himself and hasn't. What Ben is lacking is the stuff between the ears. He's a teddy bear in a world filled with grizzly bears ... you can't teach that kind of stuff. Boggles my mind. On Rondo I am kind of split, mostly because he's one of my favorite players. However, as great as this season was for him, we suffered a lot on the defensive side of the floor with him out there. DC may be half the player Rondo is in terms of talent and ability to lead the team, but he fits better (mostly because of his ability to hit the outside shot consistently). Maybe a sign and trade with Rondo could net us something in return... I'll gladly leave that one up to Vlade!
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Ben is still a great athlete. Give him a job. He needs direction. Tell him specifically what he is to do like defense and 3 pters. No? Turn him into a legitimate 3 and D. He can do that and I think reasonably well. It's not a bad bargain.

Rondo is an amazing athlete with the freakishly long arms and huge hands. That's worth a lot. What I don't like about him is something I cannot quantify. He didn't seem interested in creating a team if that makes sense. He and Boogie were it with an occasional ally oop to WCS. If Gay wanted a shot, he had to grab the ball and go iso. I don't want Rondo back if only because he may cost too much. If he can be had at a bargain, I'll change my mind.

I think Gay can offer more especially on the defensive end. He's a strong SF and has been a good defender in spurts. With a defensive minded coach, this may get pumped up even higher. Then have Doug yelling in his ear. With Rondo and Cousins on the court, Gay doesn't have much of a job.

As you can see, I am not quick to unload Rudy. I may be wrong but he's not a bad bargain at his salary. Add in Ryan Anderson and I'll be happier. Get us Dunn in the draft and I will think the basketball gods have paid us back for treating us so bad in the past. I can dream.

I am not saying who I think is best at their position. I am trying to put together a team that fits financially and I am trying to squeeze Ryan Anderson into it. There are an amazing number of ways this team can go and Vlade can make decisions as the market determines Rondo's worth, etc.
 
I've read a few things in recent days, can't remember where, but the cap might be at 89 million. Either way, they most likely have to let Rondo walk if they want to fill the needs. I'd rather a much more attack oriented defender at PG.
 
There are a TON of legit 3 and D wings out there this summer, I really hope they don't look the other way and just anoint Ben the starting SG. I don't think he's being used right, but I'm also not sure he's a 3 and D player. I think he's more of a volume scorer a la Marcus Thornton or Kevin Martin.
 
Glenn said:
Ben is still a great athlete. Give him a job. He needs direction. Tell him specifically what he is to do like defense and 3 pters. No? Turn him into a legitimate 3 and D. He can do that and I think reasonably well. It's not a bad bargain.

Rondo is an amazing athlete with the freakishly long arms and huge hands. That's worth a lot. What I don't like about him is something I cannot quantify. He didn't seem interested in creating a team if that makes sense. He and Boogie were it with an occasional ally oop to WCS. If Gay wanted a shot, he had to grab the ball and go iso. I don't want Rondo back if only because he may cost too much. If he can be had at a bargain, I'll change my mind.

I think Gay can offer more especially on the defensive end. He's a strong SF and has been a good defender in spurts. With a defensive minded coach, this may get pumped up even higher. Then have Doug yelling in his ear. With Rondo and Cousins on the court, Gay doesn't have much of a job.

As you can see, I am not quick to unload Rudy. I may be wrong but he's not a bad bargain at his salary. Add in Ryan Anderson and I'll be happier. Get us Dunn in the draft and I will think the basketball gods have paid us back for treating us so bad in the past. I can dream.

I am not saying who I think is best at their position. I am trying to put together a team that fits financially and I am trying to squeeze Ryan Anderson into it. There are an amazing number of ways this team can go and Vlade can make decisions as the market determines Rondo's worth, etc.
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I like Ryan Anderson and honestly, he could be our SF. I would move Rudy to the 2 (we don't have a real SG and Rudy's handles >>>> Ben's handles anyway. We would trot out a massive starting lineup. No small ball here. Imagine:
-Collison
-Rudy
-Anderson
-WCS
-Cousins

Collison would be our pesky perimeter defender/spot up shooter, WCS our interior/perimeter defender, Anderson our deadly 3 point shooter, Big Cuz for scoring, and Rudy for scoring. Rudy would have the toughest time adjusting here, but I think at one point with Malone (IIRC), we moved Rudy to the 2 for a short stretch and it worked out well for us. It would be far more awesome if we could pry a certain SG from the Bulls, but the chances of that are remote. I would give up Rudy and Ben for Butler in a nanosecond.
 
Glenn said:
Ben is still a great athlete. Give him a job. He needs direction. Tell him specifically what he is to do like defense and 3 pters. No? Turn him into a legitimate 3 and D. He can do that and I think reasonably well. It's not a bad bargain.
Click to expand...

Ben is a great athlete. but he's got no head for the game. And between the two you'd take the 2nd one everytime. There are stacks of great athletes, in particular great athletes with no particular size to distinguish them, playing in minor leagues all around the world.

In any case though, if he's back, he's back. If he's back as a starter though...Ben is about 30 games from being the single WORST starting SG in NBA history. As in literally. Nobody else so worthless has started so many games. Or at this point I think he's 2nd or 3rd on the all time turd list. of course if he's back and doesn't start he could rapidly disappear down the bench, and then what was the point of bringing him back?
 
randymoss1881 said:
According to guys on realgm Joerger was on Rome and it seems from tht like Rondo won't be back and thy he wants Ben to play next year. Probably means we are switching Rondo for Anderson which I'm 100% for.
Click to expand...

So far Joerger has been very careful to only talk about guys that are currently under contract with the Kings and who don't have an option for next season. He hasn't said anything about Rondo, Curry, Acy, or even Butler & Anderson who can still opt out.

I think he's just purposely not crossing any lines. Rajon Rondo isn't under contract. So why would he say anything about what he might do with Rondo. That starts implying roster moves and (1) that's Vlade's domain and (2) you don't want other teams to have any insight into what the team might do.
 
funkykingston said:
So far Joerger has been very careful to only talk about guys that are currently under contract with the Kings and who don't have an option for next season. He hasn't said anything about Rondo, Curry, Acy, or even Butler & Anderson who can still opt out.

I think he's just purposely not crossing any lines. Rajon Rondo isn't under contract. So why would he say anything about what he might do with Rondo. That starts implying roster moves and (1) that's Vlade's domain and (2) you don't want other teams to have any insight into what the team might do.
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While agree with you, he has at least twice on interviews talked about Collison being the starter at PG. That in and of itself is a bit telling.
 
Bricklayer said:
Ben is a great athlete. but he's got no head for the game. And between the two you'd take the 2nd one everytime. There are stacks of great athletes, in particular great athletes with no particular size to distinguish them, playing in minor leagues all around the world.

In any case though, if he's back, he's back. If he's back as a starter though...Ben is about 30 games from being the single WORST starting SG in NBA history. As in literally. Nobody else so worthless has started so many games. Or at this point I think he's 2nd or 3rd on the all time turd list. of course if he's back and doesn't start he could rapidly disappear down the bench, and then what was the point of bringing him back?
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I would give Ben limited instructions. Play defense, shoot three pointers and never, ever, dribble.
 
While he is not going to make a comment about the FAs, I also get the sense from coach's various interviews that he thinks that Collison is a starter or words to the effect that Collison has proved that he is a started in this league.

Also the comments of playing through Cousins as both the scorer and creator suggests returns to a few of the Princeton sets that I have linked in the other thread that coach used in Memphis. If this is how we are intending to play, I am not sure how Rondo fits into that offense. He is more of a guy that surveys the floor and reads the D well and makes great passes as a result. DC is closer to Conley in terms of style of play than Rondo is.

I would personally love Rondo back but I get the feeling that we will be going in a different direction. Either way we need a really good PG as DC has proved that he cannot last the season as the starter and I am not sure that Curry is a legitimate back up PG who can give you consistent 20mpg for the whole season and spot start when needed. Not for a play off team.

If Kings end up drafting a PG, it will be a dead give away that Rondo won't be back. I just hope that we don't drop a huge deal on Anderson. I wouldn't mind getting Anderson but not on ridiculous money and SG is far bigger need than a stretch 4.

I like DC but I am not feeling all that comfortable that he is a genuine starter on a play off team. Good player who can start but its not like he would be starting for majority of teams out there.
 
Rondo is not a Princeton guy anymore than he's a Triangle guy. Both those offenses actually are highly un PG-centric.

The problem is that we were the only NBA team to ever accomplish anything in the NBA with the Princeton, and we did it by stacking up passers at nearly every position to make up for the offense's tendency to take the ball out of the hands of your PG, who is normally your best passer.

In case people have forgotten, and they have, along with being the worst defensive team in the NBA for the last decade, until last seaosn we were also the worst PASSING team in the NBA for the last decade. Year after year after year bottom 5 in assists. Then Rondo comes, and boom, suddenly we are 4th in the NBA. Take him back away, and we still do not have anything like the passing talent to overcome his removal. Ben? Rudy? Kosta? WCS? Omri? Collison himself is below average for a PG. Pretty mcuh you have Cuz...Marco is decent for a SG, and then you have to start almost entirely over from scratch.

This is the power of having a player who's great at something, as Rondo is. its like owning Step Curry in fantasy bball -- he'll win you 3ptrs by himself. Take him away, and our ability to create for each other is again bottom of the league. Putting in an offense and saying oh, now we are going to have Kosta Koufos and Ben McLemore create shots for teammates rather than Rajon Rondo create shots for teammates is not at all the same thing as saying we're going to have Doug Christie and Vlade Divac create shots rather than Mike Bibby.
 
Glenn said:
I would give Ben limited instructions. Play defense, shoot three pointers and never, ever, dribble.
Click to expand...
That is literally what we have asked him to do for 3 years. No one has asked him to be a playmaker or dribble. Far from it. It's time for us to make him someone else's problem. He's still young enough to get some team to bite on his potential. His issue is he's as soft as a cloud mentally. He's not tough at all.
 
Sac.Kings said:
That is literally what we have asked him to do for 3 years. No one has asked him to be a playmaker or dribble. Far from it. It's time for us to make him someone else's problem. He's still young enough to get some team to bite on his potential. His issue is he's as soft as a cloud mentally. He's not tough at all.
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He is not going to be easy to unload.
 
Bricklayer said:
Rondo is not a Princeton guy anymore than he's a Triangle guy. Both those offenses actually are highly un PG-centric.

The problem is that we were the only NBA team to ever accomplish anything in the NBA with the Princeton, and we did it by stacking up passers at nearly every position to make up for the offense's tendency to take the ball out of the hands of your PG, who is normally your best passer.

In case people have forgotten, and they have, along with being the worst defensive team in the NBA for the last decade, until last seaosn we were also the worst PASSING team in the NBA for the last decade. Year after year after year bottom 5 in assists. Then Rondo comes, and boom, suddenly we are 4th in the NBA. Take him back away, and we still do not have anything like the passing talent to overcome his removal. Ben? Rudy? Kosta? WCS? Omri? Collison himself is below average for a PG. Pretty mcuh you have Cuz...Marco is decent for a SG, and then you have to start almost entirely over from scratch.

This is the power of having a player who's great at something, as Rondo is. its like owning Step Curry in fantasy bball -- he'll win you 3ptrs by himself. Take him away, and our ability to create for each other is again bottom of the league. Putting in an offense and saying oh, now we are going to have Kosta Koufos and Ben McLemore create shots for teammates rather than Rajon Rondo create shots for teammates is not at all the same thing as saying we're going to have Doug Christie and Vlade Divac create shots rather than Mike Bibby.
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Valid point, I am one that forgot how putrid passing was before Rondo.

One thing, feel free to include Cuz to the rest of the list... while above average for a center, he is nowhere near Divac/Webber/Gasol passing skills.
 
Glenn said:
I would give Ben limited instructions. Play defense, shoot three pointers and never, ever, dribble.
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I tend to agree with you. I don't know how well Ben works with Team defense, but he is fully capable man on man defense when properly motivated. I kind of get the idea taking one last shot to try to get your investment back out of him, but you do have to have a line where you cut your losses.
 
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randymoss1881 said:
According to guys on realgm Joerger was on Rome and it seems from tht like Rondo won't be back and thy he wants Ben to play next year. Probably means we are switching Rondo for Anderson which I'm 100% for.
Click to expand...

There is no way Joerger would have said anything about any of the free agent players. None.
 
Sac.Kings said:
That is literally what we have asked him to do for 3 years. No one has asked him to be a playmaker or dribble. Far from it. It's time for us to make him someone else's problem. He's still young enough to get some team to bite on his potential. His issue is he's as soft as a cloud mentally. He's not tough at all.
Click to expand...

Not true. Everyone has had a different coach each of the last 3 years. They've all been asked to do different things by these coaches. Including, be play makers.
 
Bricklayer said:
Rondo is not a Princeton guy anymore than he's a Triangle guy. Both those offenses actually are highly un PG-centric.

The problem is that we were the only NBA team to ever accomplish anything in the NBA with the Princeton, and we did it by stacking up passers at nearly every position to make up for the offense's tendency to take the ball out of the hands of your PG, who is normally your best passer.

In case people have forgotten, and they have, along with being the worst defensive team in the NBA for the last decade, until last seaosn we were also the worst PASSING team in the NBA for the last decade. Year after year after year bottom 5 in assists. Then Rondo comes, and boom, suddenly we are 4th in the NBA. Take him back away, and we still do not have anything like the passing talent to overcome his removal. Ben? Rudy? Kosta? WCS? Omri? Collison himself is below average for a PG. Pretty mcuh you have Cuz...Marco is decent for a SG, and then you have to start almost entirely over from scratch.

This is the power of having a player who's great at something, as Rondo is. its like owning Step Curry in fantasy bball -- he'll win you 3ptrs by himself. Take him away, and our ability to create for each other is again bottom of the league. Putting in an offense and saying oh, now we are going to have Kosta Koufos and Ben McLemore create shots for teammates rather than Rajon Rondo create shots for teammates is not at all the same thing as saying we're going to have Doug Christie and Vlade Divac create shots rather than Mike Bibby.
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Absolutely spot on but the sense I am getting from the coach is that we are unlikely to bring Rondo back. That is just the sense I get. Personally, I would bring him back and then look to upgrade our SG spot using assets currently on the roster and/or our draft pick.

I still think Cousins-WCS-Gay-Solid SG-Rondo is a very nice core to move forward with but what the messages coming from the new coach suggests that we are unlikely to see Rondo return to Sacramento.

Time will tell I guess.
 
It's quite irritating that a lot of us want to see the exact lineups that you showed worked stat wise, but for some reason coach never did.
 
Čarolija said:
Absolutely spot on but the sense I am getting from the coach is that we are unlikely to bring Rondo back. That is just the sense I get. Personally, I would bring him back and then look to upgrade our SG spot using assets currently on the roster and/or our draft pick.

I still think Cousins-WCS-Gay-Solid SG-Rondo is a very nice core to move forward with but what the messages coming from the new coach suggests that we are unlikely to see Rondo return to Sacramento.

Time will tell I guess.
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VF21 mentioned this already: Joerger is not going to mention any upcoming FAs. I don't care, how spontaneous they want post-firing developments look like, Joerger had a very good understanding of what was going on in Sacramento, and what situation he was getting into. Dave clearly knew, that Old George was trying to get on roster construction process, so at the introductory PC our new coach was instantly ducking any personnel questions, unless it was about a King under contract. Same in every other interview.
In other words we are not going to know prior to the FA process, what Dave's opinions of former Kings are, though, I think, Vlade will.

P.S. in the Drive interview Joerger mentioned, that he already talked to all the guys still on the roster, except 1.
 
Gilles said:
VF21 mentioned this already: Joerger is not going to mention any upcoming FAs. I don't care, how spontaneous they want post-firing developments look like, Joerger had a very good understanding of what was going on in Sacramento, and what situation he was getting into. Dave clearly knew, that Old George was trying to get on roster construction process, so at the introductory PC our new coach was instantly ducking any personnel questions, unless it was about a King under contract. Same in every other interview.
In other words we are not going to know prior to the FA process, what Dave's opinions of former Kings are, though, I think, Vlade will.

P.S. in the Drive interview Joerger mentioned, that he already talked to all the guys still on the roster, except 1.
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Exactly. I wouldn't construe Joerger not mentioning guys like Rondo, Curry, Acy (possibly Butler) to mean he doesn't have an opinion on whether or not he'd like them re-signed. Vlade wants his coach's opinion and wants him to have a voice in personnel matters.
 
Has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Rondo didn't play defense because George Karl never held his players accountable on that end of the court?

Rondo used to be one of the most tenacious defenders in the NBA.

Now that Rondo is back to full health, there is nothing that says he can't be an effective defender when properly motivated by the coach and his system.
 
ockingsfan said:
Has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Rondo didn't play defense because George Karl never held his players accountable on that end of the court?

Rondo used to be one of the most tenacious defenders in the NBA.

Now that Rondo is back to full health, there is nothing that says he can't be an effective defender when properly motivated by the coach and his system.
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Be careful, your conspiracy theory is showing. ;)
 
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