2018 Redraft Podcast

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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#33
it’s not really about drafting Luka.... in fact I still question Luka’s defense and can you win a championship with it. You are kinda missing the whole point of the thread and the critique of Vlade.

the main point is Vlade repeatedly taking players significantly (and yes 2 versus 5 is significant as Dallas sent a top 5 protected 1st round pick to move from 5 to 3) before they are valued.

Pappa G, Bagley and Justin James all fit in this characterization. In all cases, he could have traded down or in the case of James drafted him later.
The whole point of the thread is rehashing what has all been said and done before. I understand why some of you will never be able to let this go. I just see fewer and fewer people wanting to continue to talk about when nothing new has happened.
 
#34
The whole point of the thread is rehashing what has all been said and done before. I understand why some of you will never be able to let this go. I just see fewer and fewer people wanting to continue to talk about when nothing new has happened.
Wont be much longer now. Vlade has to go hes used all his lifelines.
 
#36
Well we know Atlanta, Memphis and Dallas didn’t.
Well, the hot rumor before the draft was that Atlanta wanted Bagley bad.

What likely happened was that once Bagley was off the board, Atlanta traded down to get Trae Young and an additional pick for Doncic. Apparently, Atlanta wasn't that high on Doncic either.

Most mock drafts had 1)Ayton (Suns) 2) Doncic (Kings) and 3) Bagley (Atlanta) 4) JJackson (Memphis)
 
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#37
The whole point of the thread is rehashing what has all been said and done before. I understand why some of you will never be able to let this go. I just see fewer and fewer people wanting to continue to talk about when nothing new has happened.
well since none of us knew the thinking of the Memphis GM up to this point, hard to see how it’s rehashed.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#38
well since none of us knew the thinking of the Memphis GM up to this point, hard to see how it’s rehashed.
Yet evidently, we're to believe that Vlade was supposed to know the thinking of the Memphis GM. If it is true, as they now claim (they could be lying) that Memphis had no interest in Bagley, how was Vlade supposed to know? Corporate spies? Bugging the draft room? Educated guesses are the best we have, and presumably the best he had.

Obviously Bagley was #1 or #2 on our board, because we took him at #2. Obviously we preferred Bagley to Doncic, or we would have drafted Doncic.

Did Dallas offer to trade into #2? I don't think we know. Maybe they didn't offer.
If Dallas did offer to trade into #2, did we have any way of knowing that they would take Doncic and not Bagley?
If we traded with Dallas, do we know Atlanta would pass on Bagley for Young (or JJJ)? (We still don't know this)
If we traded with Dallas, did we know Memphis would pass on Bagley for JJJ or another player? (We still have to take Memphis's two-years post-draft word for this)
Also, what if Atlanta took JJJ at #3? Would Memphis take Bagley at #4 leaving us with Trae Young (bad fit with Fox) at #5 or another guy Like Bamba or Carter who we would be equally complaining about now?

There are a lot of "ifs" here, and all of these "ifs" have to fall into place if we want to trade our #2 pick and still grab Bagley at #5, since, as I've pointed out, Bagley was clearly our target, at least once Ayton was off the board. So, we can try to get cute and hope all the "ifs" pan out, or we can just take Bagley at #2, since clearly we wanted Bagley. Maybe it's fun to try to run the risk-reward simulation from the safety of our home two years after the draft, but on draft night, in the draft room, getting cute is liable to lose you your targeted player and get you fired.
 
#39
Yet evidently, we're to believe that Vlade was supposed to know the thinking of the Memphis GM. If it is true, as they now claim (they could be lying) that Memphis had no interest in Bagley, how was Vlade supposed to know? Corporate spies? Bugging the draft room? Educated guesses are the best we have, and presumably the best he had.

Obviously Bagley was #1 or #2 on our board, because we took him at #2. Obviously we preferred Bagley to Doncic, or we would have drafted Doncic.

Did Dallas offer to trade into #2? I don't think we know. Maybe they didn't offer.
If Dallas did offer to trade into #2, did we have any way of knowing that they would take Doncic and not Bagley?
If we traded with Dallas, do we know Atlanta would pass on Bagley for Young (or JJJ)? (We still don't know this)
If we traded with Dallas, did we know Memphis would pass on Bagley for JJJ or another player? (We still have to take Memphis's two-years post-draft word for this)
Also, what if Atlanta took JJJ at #3? Would Memphis take Bagley at #4 leaving us with Trae Young (bad fit with Fox) at #5 or another guy Like Bamba or Carter who we would be equally complaining about now?

There are a lot of "ifs" here, and all of these "ifs" have to fall into place if we want to trade our #2 pick and still grab Bagley at #5, since, as I've pointed out, Bagley was clearly our target, at least once Ayton was off the board. So, we can try to get cute and hope all the "ifs" pan out, or we can just take Bagley at #2, since clearly we wanted Bagley. Maybe it's fun to try to run the risk-reward simulation from the safety of our home two years after the draft, but on draft night, in the draft room, getting cute is liable to lose you your targeted player and get you fired.
Yes, yes, a million times yes.

And picking Bagley IS the part where he got cute. The part where Bagley was your intended target that high is in the long run more liable to get you fired and is more of a risk factor, and listening to these opinions of the guy who was there makes that apparent.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#40
Yet evidently, we're to believe that Vlade was supposed to know the thinking of the Memphis GM. If it is true, as they now claim (they could be lying) that Memphis had no interest in Bagley, how was Vlade supposed to know? Corporate spies? Bugging the draft room? Educated guesses are the best we have, and presumably the best he had.

Obviously Bagley was #1 or #2 on our board, because we took him at #2. Obviously we preferred Bagley to Doncic, or we would have drafted Doncic.

Did Dallas offer to trade into #2? I don't think we know. Maybe they didn't offer.
If Dallas did offer to trade into #2, did we have any way of knowing that they would take Doncic and not Bagley?
If we traded with Dallas, do we know Atlanta would pass on Bagley for Young (or JJJ)? (We still don't know this)
If we traded with Dallas, did we know Memphis would pass on Bagley for JJJ or another player? (We still have to take Memphis's two-years post-draft word for this)
Also, what if Atlanta took JJJ at #3? Would Memphis take Bagley at #4 leaving us with Trae Young (bad fit with Fox) at #5 or another guy Like Bamba or Carter who we would be equally complaining about now?

There are a lot of "ifs" here, and all of these "ifs" have to fall into place if we want to trade our #2 pick and still grab Bagley at #5, since, as I've pointed out, Bagley was clearly our target, at least once Ayton was off the board. So, we can try to get cute and hope all the "ifs" pan out, or we can just take Bagley at #2, since clearly we wanted Bagley. Maybe it's fun to try to run the risk-reward simulation from the safety of our home two years after the draft, but on draft night, in the draft room, getting cute is liable to lose you your targeted player and get you fired.
If you haven’t hired several dozen shady looking former Mossad Agents to assemble phone book length dossiers on every other GM in the league are you even GMing?
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#41
And picking Bagley IS the part where he got cute.
Sorry, you've got the wrong argument. You've made your opinion on Bagley quite clear, innumerable times, and I have no patience to hear it again. In this case I was addressing a different argument - the argument that given that Vlade intended to pick Bagley, he made a mistake in not trading down.
 
#43
If you haven’t hired several dozen shady looking former Mossad Agents to assemble phone book length dossiers on every other GM in the league are you even GMing?
yes we’ll explain how I knew Vlade was picking Bagley via non Sacramento King sources before the draft. Front offices tip their hands and the best front offices bluff well and read other people’s motivations. Not unlike playing poker.
 
#44
How would Coach Joerger have handled each of these Players their Rookie year?

Ayton - Would have been coming off the bench until he earned his minutes. Would have averaged 8 points and 5 boards on 18 minutes a game.
Bagley - Coach had Bags earn his minutes as well. Injuries hampered his development.
Luka - Bench player earning his minutes. Shades of a Nelly Point Forward. Would not have been the Man like in Big D.
JJ - Would have played a little less than Ayton or Bags. Development might come later.
Trae - Would have barely played. Would have been a crunch time phenom when the Kings were being blown out.

Joergers answer to the post game question:

Reporter - Why did _____ not get more minutes?
Joerger - _____ needs to learn the play book and improve their team defense.
 
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#45
How would Coach Joerger have handled each of these Players their Rookie year?

Ayton - Would have been coming off the bench until he earned his minutes. Would have averaged 8 points and 5 boards on 18 minutes a game.
Bagley - Coach had Bags earn his minutes as well. Injuries hampered his development.
Luka - Bench player earning his minutes. Shades of a Nelly Point Forward. Would not have been the Man like in Big D.
JJ - Would have played a little less than Ayton or Bags. Development might come later.
Trae - Would have barely played. Would have been a crunch time phenom when the Kings were being blown out.

Joergers answer to the post game question:

Reporter - Why did _____ not get more minutes?
Joerger - _____ needs to learn the play book and improve their team defense.
Ayton/JJJ weren’t coming off the bench they provided winning attributes and Luka would’ve been our best player
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#46
Ayton/JJJ weren’t coming off the bench they provided winning attributes and Luka would’ve been our best player
The “Luka would just been a Joerger bench player” argument is silly because he’s so much more talented than anyone else, hands would have been forced, and they would have been forced early.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#48
Carlisle handed the ball to Luka. Joerger would not have. Would have been Tyreke at SF all over again.

Ayton and JJJ would have been behind Koufos in Joergers rotation.
WCS would probably have wound up playing even MORE minutes if Ayton were on the roster if only because Ayton probably wasn’t fast enough to play Joerger’s “run down the court as fast as you can and hope for the best while not playing any defense“ strategy he was running for most of the season last year and Ayton and JJ would have probably gotten benched completely late in the season as Joerger randomly switched to his Nelly-esque WCS/Barnes/Burnt Out Bogi/Buddy/Fox lineup that yanked us out of the playoff chase.
 
#49
Carlisle handed the ball to Luka. Joerger would not have. Would have been Tyreke at SF all over again.

Ayton and JJJ would have been behind Koufos in Joergers rotation.
You think a rebounding monster and a center that can space the floor to 18-20ft is coming off the bench for KK, stop it man. JJJ also was a good defender a a very good 3 point shooter what reason would we have to have him play behind KK.

With Luka the keys would’ve been handed to him by all star break his talent was apparent, in the summer/fall reports were he was dallas best player but we all dismissed it. And before that you need multiple creators and Luka runs an offense like a top 5 player why Joerger wouldn’t realize that by mid season is beyond me.

Maybe Joerger just didn’t think Bagley was good enough to start and heck Walton repeated that
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#50
You think a rebounding monster and a center that can space the floor to 18-20ft is coming off the bench for KK, stop it man. JJJ also was a good defender a a very good 3 point shooter what reason would we have to have him play behind KK.

With Luka the keys would’ve been handed to him by all star break his talent was apparent, in the summer/fall reports were he was dallas best player but we all dismissed it. And before that you need multiple creators and Luka runs an offense like a top 5 player why Joerger wouldn’t realize that by mid season is beyond me.

Maybe Joerger just didn’t think Bagley was good enough to start and heck Walton repeated that
Marvin started the first game of the season, got his hand broken by Roid Rage Ayton and has promptly been injured the rest of the season so it’s really a stretch to be drawing any conclusions about Bagley’s usage going forward whatsoever.
 
#51
WCS would probably have wound up playing even MORE minutes if Ayton were on the roster if only because Ayton probably wasn’t fast enough to play Joerger’s “run down the court as fast as you can and hope for the best while not playing any defense“ strategy he was running for most of the season last year and Ayton and JJ would have probably gotten benched completely late in the season as Joerger randomly switched to his Nelly-esque WCS/Barnes/Burnt Out Bogi/Buddy/Fox lineup that yanked us out of the playoff chase.
while true, I remember you making some pretty snarky comments about many of these same people who complained about that line-up at the time.
 
#52
How would Coach Joerger have handled each of these Players their Rookie year?

Ayton - Would have been coming off the bench until he earned his minutes. Would have averaged 8 points and 5 boards on 18 minutes a game.
Bagley - Coach had Bags earn his minutes as well. Injuries hampered his development.
Luka - Bench player earning his minutes. Shades of a Nelly Point Forward. Would not have been the Man like in Big D.
JJ - Would have played a little less than Ayton or Bags. Development might come later.
Trae - Would have barely played. Would have been a crunch time phenom when the Kings were being blown out.

Joergers answer to the post game question:

Reporter - Why did _____ not get more minutes?
Joerger - _____ needs to learn the play book and improve their team defense.
Joeger started zero production Justin Jackson many times averaging 20+ minutes. Bagley was battling injuries but getting 25 minutes+ and plenty of touches. Joeger played the best player, and if they drafted one of the more successful rookies, no reason to think they would get buried on the bench.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#53
while true, I remember you making some pretty snarky comments about many of these same people who complained about that line-up at the time.
Uhhh no. I was fully on the “Coach Joerger Is apparently trying to get himself fired” train by that point.

Was I still snarky to people pining after the guy they wanted us to draft/ people being mean on purpose for no real reason? 115%. But this isn’t a thread to relitigate my 2019 posting history.
 
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Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#54
The ultimate irony of Joerger’s smallball lineup absolutely tanking and ruining the 2019 season is that Walton’s small ball unit of (Bjeli/Holmes/Giles/Len at center)/Harrison at the PF/ some combo of Bogi/Buddy/Baz/Cojo at the wings/ De’Aaron was the best unit we had when Covid hit.
 
#55
The revisionist history about Joerger on this forum is actually nauseating, I don't think I've seen it as widespread anywhere else. And it gets more extreme with time. Joerger is the best coach we've had since Malone and better than quite a few we had before that.

People forget how much Vivek and Vlade were talking about running at the time, and acting as if that was all Joerger. He did the best he could with that he had, and people here were excited with our style of play at the time. It's absolute revisionist garbage the way he is spoken about here now. He wasn't perfect and obviously burned some bridges along the way, but if Vlade and co had followed his advice, we'd be in a much better position than we are. I won't get into the specifics of that as we're not allowed to discuss that outside of the little box we've been allocated.
 
#56
The Kings did bring in help for Vlade in hiring Joe Dumars. But why hire the key who drafted Darko Milicic over Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh as your key advisor?????
Well, Joe Dumars is one of the few GMs that crafted a Championship team in the last 16 years.

Although he blew the Darko pick, many former Pistons admit that if they had drafted someone like Carmelo or Wade out of that draft, they might not had won the championship with a ball dominant rookie playing big minutes. That was a veteran laden team and if they had a high usage rookie playing big minutes, they likely would not had won the championship. In hindsight, it worked out for the Pistons with a championship ring.
 
#57
The revisionist history about Joerger on this forum is actually nauseating, I don't think I've seen it as widespread anywhere else. And it gets more extreme with time. Joerger is the best coach we've had since Malone and better than quite a few we had before that.

People forget how much Vivek and Vlade were talking about running at the time, and acting as if that was all Joerger. He did the best he could with that he had, and people here were excited with our style of play at the time. It's absolute revisionist garbage the way he is spoken about here now. He wasn't perfect and obviously burned some bridges along the way, but if Vlade and co had followed his advice, we'd be in a much better position than we are. I won't get into the specifics of that as we're not allowed to discuss that outside of the little box we've been allocated.
I liked Joerger, but he was known to be tough on Rookies. They had to earn it, showing them love don't you know:)
 
#58
The ultimate irony of Joerger’s smallball lineup absolutely tanking and ruining the 2019 season is that Walton’s small ball unit of (Bjeli/Holmes/Giles/Len at center)/Harrison at the PF/ some combo of Bogi/Buddy/Baz/Cojo at the wings/ De’Aaron was the best unit we had when Covid hit.
The difference was when Joeger went to it Bogi and Barnes we in a terrible shooting slump and the Kings didn’t have Bazemore for rebounding a defense. Dave’s lineup with Barnes at 4 and Shumpert at 3 might have worked. Walton also got over Bogi’s ass to rebound. Dave didn’t have a the players or player relationships to make it work.
 
#59
Uhhh no. I was fully on the “Coach Joerger Is apparently trying to get himself fired” train by that point.

Was I still snarky to people pining after the guy they wanted us to draft/ people being mean on purpose for no real reason? 115%. But this isn’t a thread to relitigate my 2019 posting history.
you are correct. I apologize for the snarky comment. I went back and looked at what Gunk called the board against Sactowndog thread.... it felt like everyone (minus slab) but I was wrong you weren’t in that thread.
 
#60
Ayton/JJJ weren’t coming off the bench they provided winning attributes and Luka would’ve been our best player
The “Luka would just been a Joerger bench player” argument is silly because he’s so much more talented than anyone else, hands would have been forced, and they would have been forced early.
IMO Coach Carlilse and the Mavs player development had a lot to do with Luka's success. Plus the Mav's built their team around him. I just don't think he would have looked the same under Joerger. Fox and Bagley both struggled as Rookies with Joerger at the helm.

By the way just a question for the OP. Did the report that Vlade and Walton will be retained prompt this rehash of the draft? Do any of you really trust Hollinger's take on any of this?
 
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