2018 Redraft Podcast

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#1
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-10-nba-re-draft-2018/id1503591370?i=1000473130857

here is the Chad Forde redraft which is fascinating because it’s done with John Hollinger. It’s worth listening to as you get to hear his thinking on the draft.

Bagley falls quite a way in this redraft but more interestingly he talks about their thoughts if JJJ didn’t fall to them. He makes it clear Vlade could have easily traded with the Mav’s and still gotten Bagley at 5.

It’s hard at this point to characterize how badly Vlade F’d up the 2nd pick in a loaded draft.
 
#3
Well Vlade is a fraudulent GM. No other franchise would employ him in any front office capacity. Let's just hope that Bagley comes back strong and proves his worth.
 
#4
The concerning thing is not appropriately maximizing the value of the pick. It is something seems to repeatedly been a problem with Vlade.

1) Drafting Pappa G with pick 13 in 2016

2) Drafting Bagley with pick 2 in 2018

3) Justin James with the 40th pick in round 2 2019

it seems to be a repeated problem with Vlade and he doesn’t appear to be getting better or learning
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#5
To be fair, after watching Doncic for three games in the EuroLeague finals, I wasn't sure whether the highlights reflected on the player myself. Bagley was always under consideration for #1 for me from watching a bunch of full games in college, so I'd have been 50-50 on that (Doncic the "consensus" pick, Bagley the guy that actually looked good). I haven't listened to the podcast, but Bagley falling to #5 seems unlikely. Best I could tell at the time had Ayton/Doncic/Bagley as the clear top three.
 
#6
The concerning thing is not appropriately maximizing the value of the pick. It is something seems to repeatedly been a problem with Vlade.

1) Drafting Pappa G with pick 13 in 2016

2) Drafting Bagley with pick 2 in 2018

3) Justin James with the 40th pick in round 2 2019

it seems to be a repeated problem with Vlade and he doesn’t appear to be getting better or learning
What's wrong with new JJ? I like the kid.
 
#9
To be fair, after watching Doncic for three games in the EuroLeague finals, I wasn't sure whether the highlights reflected on the player myself. Bagley was always under consideration for #1 for me from watching a bunch of full games in college, so I'd have been 50-50 on that (Doncic the "consensus" pick, Bagley the guy that actually looked good). I haven't listened to the podcast, but Bagley falling to #5 seems unlikely. Best I could tell at the time had Ayton/Doncic/Bagley as the clear top three.
yeah but what was known....

you knew Pheonix was going Ayton.

you know the Mavs at 5 wanted to move up. That left what would Atlanta and Memphis do... Atlanta had Collins so they were unlikely. The key was Memphis... Bagley wasn’t on the board for Memphis and they were going clearly JJ. This was information Vlade should have gotten.

Pheonix was looked in on Ayton.
Dallas was hot to trade up for Doncic
Atlanta was clearly locked in on Trey
Memphis was locked in on JJJ ( in fact if JJJ wasn’t there they were going to trade out)
Kings could have easily had Bagley at 5.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#10
The concerning thing is not appropriately maximizing the value of the pick. It is something seems to repeatedly been a problem with Vlade.

1) Drafting Pappa G with pick 13 in 2016

2) Drafting Bagley with pick 2 in 2018

3) Justin James with the 40th pick in round 2 2019

it seems to be a repeated problem with Vlade and he doesn’t appear to be getting better or learning
So basically this is just a new thread with the same old complaints against Vlade?
 
#11
To be fair, after watching Doncic for three games in the EuroLeague finals, I wasn't sure whether the highlights reflected on the player myself. Bagley was always under consideration for #1 for me from watching a bunch of full games in college, so I'd have been 50-50 on that (Doncic the "consensus" pick, Bagley the guy that actually looked good). I haven't listened to the podcast, but Bagley falling to #5 seems unlikely. Best I could tell at the time had Ayton/Doncic/Bagley as the clear top three.
Ayton/Luka was correcting but I think early on it became clear Atlanta was taking Trae. There GM who was gsw was fascinated with recreating that and Trae was his Steph. The problem would’ve been Memphis but either way after Ayton/Luka/Trae walking out with JJJ or Bagley isn’t bad. I think JJJ not working out for us ****ed everything up
 
#13
My draft order I belive (unless someone looks it up) was:

1: Luka
2: Jackson
3. Ayton
4. Trae
5. Bagley

I didn’t see Luka as a generational talent so there’s that I thought he’d be a 20/7/7 guy who controlled our offense and would be a star. Forgot how much easier it is to score in the nba vs euro with the rules and physicality. With Ayton I believed he’d be an all star big with average defense a 20/10 guy but easily preferred Luka. I fell in love with Jackson really early I remember pumping him in like December when he was projected to go in the late lottery. The first game I saw him I was in awe of his defensive awareness than the longer the season when I saw his shooting which was amazing for a big. Late February he started breaking out crossovers on guys and taking defenders off the dribble and i was in love. With Trae his passing really impressed me I didn’t think he’d be that good of a scoring (something like 18-20ppg) but I believed he could run an offense really well. I believe Bagley would be a 20/10 guy but I didn’t think he’d provide the necessary shooting/defense to be a winning player. A good get at 5 but now before the other guys.

Also I was in the group to trade Fox for a high pick to pair with Luka at the time. I belive I would’ve traded Fox to Orlando and drafted Mo Bamba and built around Luka/Buddy/Bogi with WCS/Mo being the defenders. No knowing that NYK offered Porzingis for Fox as a GM and I would’ve passed out before accepting that trade faster than it was offered.
 
#14
My draft order I belive (unless someone looks it up) was:

1: Luka
2: Jackson
3. Ayton
4. Trae
5. Bagley

I didn’t see Luka as a generational talent so there’s that I thought he’d be a 20/7/7 guy who controlled our offense and would be a star. Forgot how much easier it is to score in the nba vs euro with the rules and physicality. With Ayton I believed he’d be an all star big with average defense a 20/10 guy but easily preferred Luka. I fell in love with Jackson really early I remember pumping him in like December when he was projected to go in the late lottery. The first game I saw him I was in awe of his defensive awareness than the longer the season when I saw his shooting which was amazing for a big. Late February he started breaking out crossovers on guys and taking defenders off the dribble and i was in love. With Trae his passing really impressed me I didn’t think he’d be that good of a scoring (something like 18-20ppg) but I believed he could run an offense really well. I believe Bagley would be a 20/10 guy but I didn’t think he’d provide the necessary shooting/defense to be a winning player. A good get at 5 but now before the other guys.

Also I was in the group to trade Fox for a high pick to pair with Luka at the time. I belive I would’ve traded Fox to Orlando and drafted Mo Bamba and built around Luka/Buddy/Bogi with WCS/Mo being the defenders. No knowing that NYK offered Porzingis for Fox as a GM and I would’ve passed out before accepting that trade faster than it was offered.
Would you have also Coerced Cuban to be able to hire Donny Nelson and Coach Carlisle? :) I mean you had the exact plan those guys did, might as well go all the way:)
 
#15
Wouldn’t the key be Atlanta/Orlando? In this scenario, Atlanta could easily still trade back to #6 and get their guy, allowing Orlando to come up and get Bagley....then spin off Gordon for something else. New front office, so not a big PR hit at the time to trade Gordon, especially if bringing Bagley. Hollinger is an interesting data point, but not omniscient.

I think that, in Kings opinion, this was a three player draft and trading that far back was a non-starter.
 
#16
yeah but what was known....

you knew Pheonix was going Ayton.

you know the Mavs at 5 wanted to move up. That left what would Atlanta and Memphis do... Atlanta had Collins so they were unlikely. The key was Memphis... Bagley wasn’t on the board for Memphis and they were going clearly JJ. This was information Vlade should have gotten.

Pheonix was looked in on Ayton.
Dallas was hot to trade up for Doncic
Atlanta was clearly locked in on Trey
Memphis was locked in on JJJ ( in fact if JJJ wasn’t there they were going to trade out)
Kings could have easily had Bagley at 5.
You use the words "knew" and "know" as if this was broadcast on the media outlets. Sure we ALL KNOW this now, but back then, not so much.

IMO it seems like a bit of revisionist history to say anyone "knew" what would happen. You might as well say we should/could have drafted Curry, Kawhi, PG, etc.
 
#18
You use the words "knew" and "know" as if this was broadcast on the media outlets. Sure we ALL KNOW this now, but back then, not so much.

IMO it seems like a bit of revisionist history to say anyone "knew" what would happen. You might as well say we should/could have drafted Curry, Kawhi, PG, etc.
some things were known. It was known Pheonix was locked in on Ayton. It’s called intelligence and good teams have it. If you recall, I called Bagley early because teams knew the Kings were locked in on Bagley. Good teams work to ferret out the draft order and try to maximize the value of their picks.
 
#19
Wouldn’t the key be Atlanta/Orlando? In this scenario, Atlanta could easily still trade back to #6 and get their guy, allowing Orlando to come up and get Bagley....then spin off Gordon for something else. New front office, so not a big PR hit at the time to trade Gordon, especially if bringing Bagley. Hollinger is an interesting data point, but not omniscient.

I think that, in Kings opinion, this was a three player draft and trading that far back was a non-starter.
yes that was a possible scenario if they thought the Kings would not take Young. But that assumes that Orlando would trade up. If I recall they liked Bamba. They had Isaac already which is a similar player to Bagley so the risk was small.

Bagley’s defense and lack of outside shooting had him lower on many people’s board than top 3. Issues we see today.
 
#21
Would you have also Coerced Cuban to be able to hire Donny Nelson and Coach Carlisle? :) I mean you had the exact plan those guys did, might as well go all the way:)
Haha right, I was just in love with Luka and to pair him with the unicorn when Fox didn’t look good was just obvious to me.
 
#22
Ayton/Luka was correcting but I think early on it became clear Atlanta was taking Trae. There GM who was gsw was fascinated with recreating that and Trae was his Steph. The problem would’ve been Memphis but either way after Ayton/Luka/Trae walking out with JJJ or Bagley isn’t bad. I think JJJ not working out for us ****ed everything up
True but him not working out was a clue he thought he was going high already. Vlade needs to stop refusing to draft people who don’t want to play here. It causes draft mistakes, the perception your organization is incompetent and a viscous circle starts.
 
#23
True but him not working out was a clue he thought he was going high already. Vlade needs to stop refusing to draft people who don’t want to play here. It causes draft mistakes, the perception your organization is incompetent and a viscous circle starts.
It also let’s some guys know they can just control not coming here which isn’t good take the kid and call his bluff. Almost 100% of them are bluffing as is, Jackson would’ve played here and acted like he wanted to come here the minute we took him
 
#26
So basically this is just a new thread with the same old complaints against Vlade?
Nah, there's new information here. We know now that that the DAL/MEM/ATL front offices all think Vlade's a joke and were just waiting for Vlade to screw up so they could angle for the guys actually in play.

They probably all got together to watch his press conference so they could point fingers and laugh.

To be fair, after watching Doncic for three games in the EuroLeague finals, I wasn't sure whether the highlights reflected on the player myself. Bagley was always under consideration for #1 for me from watching a bunch of full games in college, so I'd have been 50-50 on that (Doncic the "consensus" pick, Bagley the guy that actually looked good). I haven't listened to the podcast, but Bagley falling to #5 seems unlikely. Best I could tell at the time had Ayton/Doncic/Bagley as the clear top three.
Well, looks like you'd be wrong then. The guy in this podcast was the VP of Basketball Operations in Memphis at the time and was there, and he basically said no team in that range had interest in Bagley. They were all waiting for Vlade to pick him so they could scramble for their guys. Bagley had no business going #2 in this draft apparently; no one wanted any part of him higher than #5 except for Vlade. He slipped in quite a few mocks during draft season as well compared to when he was #1 in his class during HS.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#27
Hopefully it doesn’t get locked and we can have a civil debate, nothing to talk about basketball wise right now haha
Why would it get locked? It's just the same few of you bringing up the same points (regardless of a couple of "details") that you've been bringing up for almost a year. Bagley is still a King...and Luka still isn't. Vlade is still the GM. If people play nice the thread stays open...
 
#30
Why would it get locked? It's just the same few of you bringing up the same points (regardless of a couple of "details") that you've been bringing up for almost a year. Bagley is still a King...and Luka still isn't. Vlade is still the GM. If people play nice the thread stays open...
it’s not really about drafting Luka.... in fact I still question Luka’s defense and can you win a championship with it. You are kinda missing the whole point of the thread and the critique of Vlade.

the main point is Vlade repeatedly taking players significantly (and yes 2 versus 5 is significant as Dallas sent a top 5 protected 1st round pick to move from 5 to 3) before they are valued.

Pappa G, Bagley and Justin James all fit in this characterization. In all cases, he could have traded down or in the case of James drafted him later.
 
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