20-10-5

[VF21]

I don't think anyone is forcing you to read them, just as I'm reasonably sure no one is preventing you from starting a thread about Pedja or anything else.

 

[sloter]

Then scout the internet, find some articles that interest YOU, and post them. Start your own Peja thread, or other topic. I merely posted an article I found extremely interesting. Must you crap on it? What's the point?

Actually, the article really is interesting. I didn't know that so few people in the NBA history averaged 20/10/5. My comment was aimed at one of VF21's remarks where she sarcastically talked about trading Webber. Sorry.

 

[VF21]

I sarcastically talked about trading Webber only because of the glee with which that topic was discussed virtually all summer by a bunch of people who were totally and completely convinced that Webber was washed up, finished, through, etc. and would only be a burden to the Kings.

And, again, I didn't refer to any one person. I was referring to the group who could barely contain their excitement about waving goodbye to a superstar PF. Well, they were wrong - and I think it's fair to say so.

Have a good night.

 

[sloter]

I sarcastically talked about trading Webber only because of the glee with which that topic was discussed virtually all summer by a bunch of people who were totally and completely convinced that Webber was washed up, finished, through, etc. and would only be a burden to the Kings.

And, again, I didn't refer to any one person. I was referring to the group who could barely contain their excitement about waving goodbye to a superstar PF. Well, they were wrong - and I think it's fair to say so.

Have a good night.

Depends who you would trade him for. I'd choose some players who do not average 20-10-5 over him, but the way the things are going for the Kings right now, I can't complain much.

 

[Bricklayer]

And there used to be so much critique before against Pedja fans, that I thought it was bad to cheer for a particular player more than the others.

Then you have fundamentally misunderstood the problem with the Peja player fans over the years.

Peja player fan:
"Peja rocks! Screw Webber and trade him for a bucket of rocks!"
"Webber comes back and now Peja isn't getting as many shots -- Chris is messing everything up!"
"Why don't the guys pass to Peja everytime down the floor?"
"If I was Peja I'd demand a trade to the Lakers to be with Vlade and get my shots!"
"Peja could score 40 if he went to the Hawks!"

Not celebrating Peja as a player. Certainly not celebrating Peja because he helps the Kings win. Celebrating Peja AT THE EXPENSE of other playes/the team. Advocating trading players, changing roles, even Peja leaving himself all for the greater glory of Peja. There are a core of true Peja fans who think he has the potential to be a great player and lift the Kings up, and value him for it. Then there is the more immature branch who KNOW Peja IS a great player and spend their lives finding excuses and blaming others for why its nto always there on the court. Its not about Peja at all, its about trashing anything and everything they see as holding back their hero.

Nudge me the next time one of these threads praising Webber turns into a hatefest toward other players, or puts the team second. The next time someone starts a thread saying "Webber is so much more complete of a player than Peja, what do we need Predrag for?" The next time someone says "If I was Webb I would demand more minutes and more shots so I could make a run at MVP."

Webber is receiving a lot of credit for two things:
1) because he's leading this team to victories
2) because its a nice redemption story -- he has faced adversity in his career over the last few years that Peja could only dream of (some of his own doing, some not), and yet here is, and here we are again. There is an underdog's tale there waiting to come out. I believe the stock-Hollywood ending is we walk off the court in June with a title having proven all the doubters wrong.

Those are the sorts of things you can laud ANY player for without it becoming an exercise in ugliness and immaturity.

 

[slugking50]

Webber is receiving a lot of credit for two things:
1) because he's leading this team to victories
2) because its a nice redemption story -- he has faced adversity in his career over the last few years that Peja could only dream of (some of his own doing, some not), and yet here is, and here we are again. There is an underdog's tale there waiting to come out. I believe the stock-Hollywood ending is we walk off the court in June with a title having proven all the doubters wrong.

Webb deserves the credit because he has hd one hell of a sason so far considering.... and his ovrall attitude seems to be much more mature and friendly. It seems as though he just might be growing up... Which is a very good thing!

 

[4cwebb]

There is only ONE person who has averaged over 20/10/5 for his entire career. Only one!

Here are the career averages of each of the "nine" named above, from www.basketballreference.com:

Baylor 27.4/11.463/4.3
Chamberlain 30.1/22.9/4.4
Robertson 25.7/7.5/9.5
Cunningham 20.8/10.1/4.0
Wicks 16.8/8.7/3.2
Abdul-jabbar 24.6/11.2/3.6
Bird 24.3/10.0/6.3
Barkley 22.1/11.7/3.9
Webber 22.0/10.2/4.4
Garnett 20.0/10.8/4.4

In case you're wondering, there are 10 names there. Apparently, nba.com can't count.

The only frustrating thing to me about these numbers is to look at these guys and note that just about every single one of them got more out of his talent than CWebb has his entire career, at least from my perception and *very limited* knowledge of the games of some of the older players.

With regard to the newer players, would anyone argue that Bird, Barkley, Kareem or Garnett didn't/don't pretty much get the most out of their god given abilities? I know I wouldn't. Bird and Barkley had physical limitations which the other players didn't/don't have, so you know they were using all of their abilities to the fullest. Garnett gives max effort night in and night out, and Kareem was a guy so unstoppable at the college level that the NCAA banned dunking, and he developed and possessed one of the most unstoppable posts moves, a move which has since to be replicated or perfected by another player.

Yet amongst this group sits CWebb, a guy who has no turn-around jump shot and only one move in the post (jump hook over left shoulder), a guy who really was never able to use his left hand on offense effectively, a guy who only in the second half of his career to date developed the ability to shoot the elbow jumper, a guy who rarely gave maximum effort on both ends of the floor for long stretches (meaning games or seasons) at a time. Despite all these limitations, he's still able to put up these type of numbers. As a huge fan of his (and the main reason that I even follow the NBA or the Kings), it's hard to determine whether this is infuriating or something to be strangely proud about. What could he have done if he had post moves like Duncan or 'Sheed, or the determination of Barkley or KG? Scary in some respects to even consider.

The late Ralph Wiley wrote a great article about CWebb during the 2002 playoff run, noting all of the above in much greater detail and in much better style than I. I for one just want the Kings/CWebb to get a ring before their time ends so that, in some ways, CWebb will not be seen as a waste of all of his given abilities once he hangs up his sneakers.

 

[piksi]

2) because its a nice redemption story -- he has faced adversity in his career over the last few years that Peja could only dream of (some of his own doing, some not), and yet here is, and here we are again.

How much do You know about Pedjas career ? (not to talk about life in general)

 

[Kingsgurl]

In his NBA career, he has faced very little adversity.

 

[piksi]

In his NBA career, he has faced very little adversity.

NBA is not everything there is, and it was not specified as such in the post that I responded too.

 

[LMM]

i think it was pretty clear in brick's post that he was pertaining to their nba careers.. atleast that's the way i read it.. i am sure brick knows of what happened to peja before he came here.. when their store was burned, they had to leave town, he had a leg injury but still played through it, etc..

there's no doubt peja has faced a lot of adversity in his life.. i think everyone knows that.. it's just that in his career, he hasn't come close to the adversities webb's had..
----------
well.. i just wanna add that this is a nice thread, KingsGurl.. only 1 person ever averaged a career 20-10-5, and webber's at 20+/10/4.4 right now..

 

[piksi]

it's just that in his career, he hasn't come close to the adversities webb's had..

Do You mean NBA career ?

Pedja had to leave Serbia in age of 16 so he can play BB. He went to Greace alone not knowing anyone, not speaking the language. Was not eligable to play for more than a year. Than he was out for a year with leg injury. Than he came to NBA as a star in Europe and had to sit on the bench for 2 seasons.

If You call doing drugs, lying to court and publically trashing his teammates adversities then sure nobody can top that. I prefer to call them stupidities which they are.
Only adversity CW had to master is the injury. Everything else he caused himself.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Redemption Song

Not every praise of Webber is a backhanded insult or dig at Pedja. Brick memtioned redemptioin....

Redemptioin Song
Robert Nester Marley

Old pirates, yes, they rob i;
Sold I to the merchant ships,
Minutes after they took i
From the bottomless pit.
But my hand was made strong
By the ’and of the almighty.
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly.
Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? ooh!
Some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.

Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.
Won’t you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs -
All I ever had:
Redemption songs:
These songs of freedom,
Songs of freedom.

 

[Bricklayer]

Do You mean NBA career ?

Pedja had to leave Serbia in age of 16 so he can play BB. He went to Greace alone not knowing anyone, not speaking the language. Was not eligable to play for more than a year. Than he was out for a year with leg injury. Than he came to NBA as a star in Europe and had to sit on the bench for 2 seasons.

If You call doing drugs, lying to court and publically trashing his teammates adversities then sure nobody can top that. I prefer to call them stupidities which they are.
Only adversity CW had to master is the injury. Everything else he caused himself.

Oh B.S. -- Peja was a child the last time anything bad happened to him. The last time he had to face doubt, or scorn. He has lived the veritable life of Riley now for so long now as to make his dark years a distant memory.

But you know what? A thread in 1999 about what Peja had to overcome to reach the NBA would have been a nice one. Quite appropriate.

On the other hand trying to compare what Peja has gone through as an adult to the rather staggering amount of adversity Webb has gone through in the last few years is myopic to say the least. Whether its been self-inflicted, bad luck, old indiscretions coming back to bite or whatever, the simple fact of the matter is that Webb has far more to overcome at this point than has Peja ever had in the NBA, and quite possibly before (when for all of his difficulty he had an entire nation pulling for him).

 

[KingKong]

Not every praise of Webber is a backhanded insult or dig at Pedja. Brick memtioned redemptioin....

Redemptioin Song
Robert Nester Marley

Old pirates, yes, they rob i;
Sold I to the merchant ships,
Minutes after they took i
From the bottomless pit.
But my hand was made strong
By the ’and of the almighty.
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly.
Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? ooh!
Some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.

Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.
Won’t you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs -
All I ever had:
Redemption songs:
These songs of freedom,
Songs of freedom.

Gotta love Bob

 

[piksi]

(when for all of his difficulty he had an entire nation pulling for him).

some things You have to earn in life

 

[ReinadelosReys]

The only frustrating thing to me about these numbers is to look at these guys and note that just about every single one of them got more out of his talent than CWebb has his entire career, at least from my perception and *very limited* knowledge of the games of some of the older players.

With regard to the newer players, would anyone argue that Bird, Barkley, Kareem or Garnett didn't/don't pretty much get the most out of their god given abilities? I know I wouldn't. Bird and Barkley had physical limitations which the other players didn't/don't have, so you know they were using all of their abilities to the fullest. Garnett gives max effort night in and night out, and Kareem was a guy so unstoppable at the college level that the NCAA banned dunking, and he developed and possessed one of the most unstoppable posts moves, a move which has since to be replicated or perfected by another player.

Yet amongst this group sits CWebb, a guy who has no turn-around jump shot and only one move in the post (jump hook over left shoulder), a guy who really was never able to use his left hand on offense effectively, a guy who only in the second half of his career to date developed the ability to shoot the elbow jumper, a guy who rarely gave maximum effort on both ends of the floor for long stretches (meaning games or seasons) at a time. Despite all these limitations, he's still able to put up these type of numbers. As a huge fan of his (and the main reason that I even follow the NBA or the Kings), it's hard to determine whether this is infuriating or something to be strangely proud about. What could he have done if he had post moves like Duncan or 'Sheed, or the determination of Barkley or KG? Scary in some respects to even consider.

The late Ralph Wiley wrote a great article about CWebb during the 2002 playoff run, noting all of the above in much greater detail and in much better style than I. I for one just want the Kings/CWebb to get a ring before their time ends so that, in some ways, CWebb will not be seen as a waste of all of his given abilities once he hangs up his sneakers.

I too have had very similar thoughts throughout the years. Having followed Webb's career for quite some time now, I have often felt a little "jipped" like we were missing out on something great. I often have gone back and forth between wondering is he just so good that he makes it look so easy as if he is not trying or what would happen he played with the same (perceived) intensity as a KG or is it just the injuries or is he just a skilled player who stuffs the stat sheet?....Ah, the complexities that are Mayce Edward Christopher Webber III

 

[Evenstar]

i still don't get how he is doing this with no real cartlidge in his knee.......

it's amazing.

i wonder how good webber could be if he had KG's body. he'd probably be better.

 

[Bricklayer]

i still don't get how he is doing this with no real cartlidge in his knee.......

it's amazing.

i wonder how good webber could be if he had KG's body. he'd probably be better.

mmm...maybe not. Hard to trump KGs competitive spirit. But I'd just love to see Webb healthy with his own body -- much stronger than KG, incredible hands etc.

Don't think it we'll ever see 100% Webb again though. So if he's going to make this happen, he's going to have to do it for the shoulders up.

 

[HndsmCelt]

mmm...maybe not. Hard to trump KGs competitive spirit. But I'd just love to see Webb healthy with his own body -- much stronger than KG, incredible hands etc.

Don't think it we'll ever see 100% Webb again though. So if he's going to make this happen, he's going to have to do it for the shoulders up.

Which IS what he is currently doing.

 

[KP]

Fugazzi KG

Look KG is an awesome player, probably the best in the league right now. But now, he is an awesome player.. on a great team... with tons, and I mean TONS of depth. How many championships has his wonderful athletic body and great competitive spirit won for the T-wolves again?? Oh that's right zero! Same as Chris. If KG doesn't come thru this year he'll be in the same boat as C-webb. The perception by some will be (I'm not saying that its true) that he can't come thru in the big series. Like all the 1st round playoff losses, The drubbing by the Lakers last year, and if the get taken out in the 2nd round this year(hopefully by us) what will people say about him then? No KG still has something to prove just like Webb does. He's got more time and opps left but the both could still come thru or not.. we just don't know who will yet.

 

[sloter]

Oh B.S. -- Peja was a child the last time anything bad happened to him. The last time he had to face doubt, or scorn. He has lived the veritable life of Riley now for so long now as to make his dark years a distant memory.

... and as we all know, kids deal with serious problems better than mature men ?

Not sure how you can compare being chased away out of your home, having your other hometown bombed, starting your own life at the age of 16 in a foreign country to self-inflicted problems of smoking pot (or whichever drug he was using) or lying in the court... Let's also not forget that Pedja's brother has been (seriously) sick for a long time.
Piksi said it great, besides the injury Webber himself is the one to blame for.

Whether its been self-inflicted, bad luck, old indiscretions coming back to bite or whatever, the simple fact of the matter is that Webb has far more to overcome at this point than has Peja ever had in the NBA, and quite possibly before (when for all of his difficulty he had an entire nation pulling for him).

This I agree with.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I have, as many of you know, a tendency to critique other peoples' posts, but I'm not in the mood. I have just one general response to anyone who thinks that "Player X" isn't getting their fair share of love on this board:

Create New Thread

 

[sloter]

That's OK ... at least "Player X" got more love in the all-star voting.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm sure that you got my point, though.

 

[Kingsgurl]

That's OK ... at least "Player X" got more love in the all-star voting.

Vince Carter?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Vince Carter?

....


Now you're just picking fights...

 

[sloter]

....


Now you're just picking fights...

Oh I know that the voting means nothing about who's better... but it means everything in terms of who's getting more "love".

 

[VF21]

Not sure how you can compare being chased away out of your home, having your other hometown bombed, starting your own life at the age of 16 in a foreign country to self-inflicted problems of smoking pot (or whichever drug he was using) or lying in the court... Let's also not forget that Pedja's brother has been (seriously) sick for a long time..

You dishonor Pedja by making it sound as though these are things he would want sympathy for OR try to use as excuses in any way, shape or form.

The only one trying to compare Webber and Pedja at every opportunity is YOU. I see them both as very talented young men who I am very proud to have on the Sacramento Kings. It's a shame you can't see it that way.

I'm still waiting for you to start a thread in tribute to Pedja.

 

[sloter]

You dishonor Pedja by making it sound as though these are things he would want sympathy for OR try to use as excuses in any way, shape or form.

The only one trying to compare Webber and Pedja at every opportunity is YOU. I see them both as very talented young men who I am very proud to have on the Sacramento Kings. It's a shame you can't see it that way.

I'm still waiting for you to start a thread in tribute to Pedja.

If you follow this thread closely, my point was not to talk about Webber vs. Pedja (which I am very glad that they seem to be functioning together better than last year), but to state that among the two Webber is the one getting ALL the praise on this forum. I am not the one to go nuts when Pedja plays a good game, it is expected from him. I'll be happy about it, but I won't be building him a shrine.