02 Kings vs 05 Pistons

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I have been arguing for the past 2 hours with some kids on a different message board on why the 02 Kings are better than 05 Pistons in so many different ways...so I was just wondering what are your opinions.

Obviously this is a Kings message board so lets just try to be unbiased


I keep reminding these kids that 02 had more quality teams especially in western conference compared to 05 leageu with SPurs and Detrioit on the top alone...

Sacramentos bench alone could give Pistons starting 5 problems IMO...
Pollard 6p 7r in 20min
Hedo 10p 5r in 25min
B-jax 11p 3r 2a in 20 min
GWallace and Funderburke were't bad either.
 
No way. The NBA is a game of matchups and that is a baaad matchup for the 02 Kings. Sorry but they would beat the Kings in 6 games, IMO. I think in a way, we got lucky in the teams we would play in the playoffs in those days. I was grateful we never hit the Spurs in any of the middle rounds.
 
Pistons would dominate the Kings. Detroit is playing very well on offense this year, and you can't even begin to argue that the Kings could match them on the defensive end. And the Kings' bench giving the starting 5 problems? That's laughable. Sac undoubtedly had a better bench than the P's current version, and the Kings could make it an interesting series, but there's no way the Kings take a seven game marathon. Also, the more quality teams just isn't true- current Spurs better than former Spurs, current Mavs better than former. Lakers are down, but Heat is up (and probably on par, or close to, 02 Lakers). Who else was around? TWolves? Suns are good this year, also Cavs are very good. If anything, the teams might be a bit better this year. Of course, the team comparisons only matter in terms of who the respective squads beat. Kings always rolled in the season, never won it all. Pistons are rolling in the season-dominantly- and may very well actually win it all. Right now, Pistons are a bit better. If they win it all, it's no contest.
 
Come on be real we would lose in 4. We would get totally dominated on the glass and get owned in the paint. Rasheed would match well with Webber and Pedja would get owned by Prince. Actually looking at starting 5 of each team they dominate us. The only advantage is the bench but it would not matter at all. The Pistons are too good of team to be bothered by our depth
 
Oh no. We were the better team. But we might still lose.

People have forgotten just how good that team was. Might in fact have been the second best team fielded by ANYBODY this millenium (to the 01 Lakers).

Biggest issue would be the Peja/Prince question. Our #2 scorer might be completely neutralized, which was always an Achilles' heel. But we ourselves were a very good defensive team at that time wiht a perfect Rip stopper in Christie, and Webb used to love going at Sheed. Would have been interesting watching the apples and oranges Vlade vs. Wallace matchup.

No way on the sweep. Not even close.
 
We'd win in 7-you all forgot how GOOD that team was by the way we're doing lately(bad). Yeah the pistons are REALLY good and pretty deep. So was that team. IMO our deepest team was the 02-03 team though(the one where webber went down:( ). Had he not gotten hurt he'd have a ring or few. That team had 3 shotblockers(Webber, Divac, Keon), a ton of bench fire power(Jim Jax, BJax, Hedo, even Keon got almost 7 PPG and got 5.5 rpg). It's a shame we had so many injuries that year...
 
BMiller52 said:
We'd win in 7-you all forgot how GOOD that team was by the way we're doing lately(bad). Yeah the pistons are REALLY good and pretty deep. So was that team. IMO our deepest team was the 02-03 team though(the one where webber went down:( ). Had he not gotten hurt he'd have a ring or few. That team had 3 shotblockers(Webber, Divac, Keon), a ton of bench fire power(Jim Jax, BJax, Hedo, even Keon got almost 7 PPG and got 5.5 rpg). It's a shame we had so many injuries that year...
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Well, I certainly remember some HUGE defensive lapses. I think its just a bad matchup for us. Not saying that team wasn't really good, but I don't think they were equiped to handle the Pistons. The Mavs were giving us all we could handle even before Webber went down.
 
KP said:
Wow.
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Yes I stand by that claim. Just look at the match ups.

PG: Bibby/Chauncey advantage Pistons offense and defense
SG: Doug/Richard advantage Pistons look at the year he is having
SF:Pedja/Prince advantage Pistons Prince's length and athleticism would hurt Pedja big time on both ends of the floor
PF: Webber/Sheed advantage Kings Webber at that time is a true superstar but Sheed would make Webber work for it.
C:Vlade/Walace advantage Detroit Walace would dominate the glass and on defense and only thing Vlade could do was go outside and hit the jumper inside Walace would handle Vlade.

Bench did not even need to say but Kings by a mile. The Kings had the deepest team in last 20 years.

The will to win unfortunately was our downside. That is where we would lose the battle. Detroit has the experience, clutchiness or whatever you want to call it and the Kings did not. That is why we lost against the Fakers that year not because of talent (because we were the better team by a mile) but because we did not have mental aspect of a Champion. That my friend what cost us the championship not the refs but our mental fortitude that did us in. That is what ultimately separates us from a team like Pistons who have it in spades.
 
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I'll change my stance a little. If the Kings played really good, and I mean, HIT ALL YOUR FREETHROWS and NO CRAZY DEFENSIVE LAPSES. We would have a legit shot. Maybe we could intice this Detroit team into a back and forth contest.
 
AleksandarN said:
Yes I stand by that claim. Just look at the match ups.

PG: Bibby/Chauncey advantage Pistons offense and defense
SG:Doug/Richard advantage Pistons look at the year he is having
SF:Pedja/Prince advantage Pistons Prince's length and athleticism would hurt Pedja big time on both ends of the floor
PF: Webber/Sheed advantage Kings Webber at that time is a true superstar but Sheed would make Webber work for it.
C:Vlade/Walace advantage Detroit Walace would dominate the glass and on defense and only thing Vlade could do was go outside and hit the jumper inside Walace would handle Vlade.

Bench did not even need to say but Kings by a mile. The Kings had the deepest team in last 20 years.

The will to win unfortunately was the our downside. That is where we would lose the battle. Detroit has the experience and clutch and whatever you want to call it and the Kings did not. That is why we lost in against the Fakers that year not because of talent (because we were the better team by a mile) but because we did not have mental aspect of Champion. That my friend what cost us the championship not the refs but our mental fortitude that did us in. That is what ultimately separates us from a team like Pistons who have in spades.
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You so Crazy Aleks! ;)
 
KP said:
You so Crazy Aleks! ;)
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OK maybe I exaggerate alittle;)
Pistons in 5 pnly if we play our A game at home. I look at Detroit and how they handle the defending champs so easily and I look at our team now and I get sad:(
 
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Coach said:
You mean the 2000 Lakers (67 wins).
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I disagree with this. That 2000 Lakers team had a great regular season record, but had been untested in the playoffs, and ended up getting taken to series-deciding games by Sacramento and Portland, and taken to a fairly competitive six games by Indiana (each team won a blowout, and the other four were each decided by single digits), for a final playoff record of 15-8.

The 2001 Lakers were much more dominiant at 15-1.
 
AleksandarN said:
Yes I stand by that claim. Just look at the match ups.

PG: Bibby/Chauncey advantage Pistons offense and defense
SG: Doug/Richard advantage Pistons look at the year he is having
SF:Pedja/Prince advantage Pistons Prince's length and athleticism would hurt Pedja big time on both ends of the floor
PF: Webber/Sheed advantage Kings Webber at that time is a true superstar but Sheed would make Webber work for it.
C:Vlade/Walace advantage Detroit Walace would dominate the glass and on defense and only thing Vlade could do was go outside and hit the jumper inside Walace would handle Vlade.

Bench did not even need to say but Kings by a mile. The Kings had the deepest team in last 20 years.

The will to win unfortunately was our downside. That is where we would lose the battle. Detroit has the experience, clutchiness or whatever you want to call it and the Kings did not. That is why we lost against the Fakers that year not because of talent (because we were the better team by a mile) but because we did not have mental aspect of a Champion. That my friend what cost us the championship not the refs but our mental fortitude that did us in. That is what ultimately separates us from a team like Pistons who have it in spades.
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You seem too very negative on the kings team on this, to give some perspective I would like to point out something.

2002 lakers

Shaq Vs Wallace - Shaq would eat ben for breakfast, lunch and dinner

Walker Vs R Wallace - Wallace wins this matchup, however at the PF position the lakers had a huge edge only from the bench in Horry and it would be a tie if the bench was also considered

Rick Fox Vs Prince - Fox will shutdown Prince or Hamilton whoever he is guarding the same way he was able to shut down peja running through all those screens. Adv Pistons

Kobe Vs Hamilton - No questions, a huge advantage for lakers

Fisher Vs Chauncy - Pistons might have advantage here, if they can play pick and roll and execute with Shaqs man.

Lakers would win in 5 or 6.

But those lakers were taken to 7 games by the kings with similar matchup problems, strong PG who can hit the shot with the pick and roll. Overmatched center position but advantage in the PF position kinda evening out the middle and the perimeter game evening out with kobe cancelling out the pg and sf advantage the other team had.

I know that the lakers were swept by the pistons in 2004, but then Shaq had become older and the lakers didnt play as a team with malone getting hurt and all that. Even then they managed to get a game, why do you think the pistons will sweep, if anything I think the pistons loose to the kings in 5 or 6, that offensive clinic that the kings used to put on then hasnt been matched by team of late other than the suns.

You could really see 20 points scored in 3 minutes and the pistons just dont have the offense to match that and their defense is overrated now more because of the lack of good shooters in the league, whereas with the kings anyone on the floor could be a three point threat and can consitently hit that too. You take Ben away from the basket and he is useless, both rebounding and scoring. Webber can hold his own with wallace and christie can shut down hamilton or chauncy. Prince would tire out by the end of third quarter chasing peja.

Get Vlade on the high post and ben is outta game and you have a layup drill every time down the floor.
 
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Damn some of ya'll are crazy... It would come down to 7 and I can't really say who'd win but to say we'd get swept or lose in 5 is hilarious... We went up against a team going for a three peat, had TWO superstars, a great supporting cast for those superstars, a great coach(far better than flip saunders), and also not to mention we were playing 8-5 most of that series(yes EIGHT on five **cough** refs **cough**)... We played the game right... The reason why we should've won the title was because of overall team play and chemistry... If u wanna look at it talent wise I really can't tell you whose had more between the 2 teams but we had a healthy webber(choking aside, he was better than anybody the pistons have right now), and don't forget the man BIBBY.... Dude had ice in his veins that year....
 
eh...pointless discussion. but, i figure what the hell, i might as well take part in it.

the kings of 01-02 would not beat the pistons of 05-06. they would not get swept, and they might even be able to take them to 7 games, but they would not win. when the kings were making their title run, the only thinkg that stood in their way was the lakers. there was no opposition in the east. there was not even a question. whoever came out on top in the west was gonna win the title in 02. a different brand of basketball is being played today, however. it is one that involves a strict defensive discipline. that's why detroit and san antonio are considered the only teams going to the finals, or, at the very least, the only two teams worthy enough to go to the finals. in 02, the kings were no defensive slouch, but they were nowhere near the level that either detroit or san antonio is today. they didn't have to compete against any tough defenses to get to the finals in 02. it was a shootout against the mavs, and a shootout against the lakers. there would be no shootout against detroit. the pistons would smother the kings. the kings of 02 had enough grit to play at the level of the pistons, but it would not have been enough. detroit of 05-06 is a great basketball team. and i mean great.
 
vladetomiller said:
You seem too very negative on the kings team on this, to give some perspective I would like to point out something.

2002 lakers

Shaq Vs Wallace - Shaq would eat ben for breakfast, lunch and dinner

Walker Vs R Wallace - Wallace wins this matchup, however at the PF position the lakers had a huge edge only from the bench in Horry and it would be a tie if the bench was also considered

Rick Fox Vs Prince - Fox will shutdown Prince or Hamilton whoever he is guarding the same way he was able to shut down peja running through all those screens. Adv Pistons

Kobe Vs Hamilton - No questions, a huge advantage for lakers

Fisher Vs Chauncy - Pistons might have advantage here, if they can play pick and roll and execute with Shaqs man.

Lakers would win in 5 or 6.

But those lakers were taken to 7 games by the kings with similar matchup problems, strong PG who can hit the shot with the pick and roll. Overmatched center position but advantage in the PF position kinda evening out the middle and the perimeter game evening out with kobe cancelling out the pg and sf advantage the other team had.

I know that the lakers were swept by the pistons in 2004, but then Shaq had become older and the lakers didnt play as a team with malone getting hurt and all that. Even then they managed to get a game, why do you think the pistons will sweep, if anything I think the pistons loose to the kings in 5 or 6, that offensive clinic that the kings used to put on then hasnt been matched by team of late other than the suns.

You could really see 20 points scored in 3 minutes and the pistons just dont have the offense to match that and their defense is overrated now more because of the lack of good shooters in the league, whereas with the kings anyone on the floor could be a three point threat and can consitently hit that too. You take Ben away from the basket and he is useless, both rebounding and scoring. Webber can hold his own with wallace and christie can shut down hamilton or chauncy. Prince would tire out by the end of third quarter chasing peja.

Get Vlade on the high post and ben is outta game and you have a layup drill every time down the floor.
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First of all it would be Kobe vs. Prince and Prince is the only one in the NBA that can slow down Kobe like he did 2004. Rip would run circles around fox if they were matched up. Chauncey rip Fisher to shreads. Ben and Shaq would be closer then you think. I would say Detriot in 5 against the Fakers.
 
AS some one pointed out here earlier about the 5 vs 8 game the finals between the lakers and the pistons was also considered in the same vein, more because when you have a player like kobe who is driving to the basket that many times there is no way any players whether it be prince or bowen, cant foul him more than 4 times a game. That just is impossible, more because the number of touches the player gets rather than the defensive prowess that you can see.

The argument that you put here about chauncy, rip and ben is exactly what the arguments we were having here in 02, bibby would kill fisher, peja would run circles around fox and Vlade/Pollard combination is closer to shaq than you think. I will in fact tell that Vlade was closer to shaq in terms of having an effect on the game and there is no way ben gets closer to shaq of 02.

But again we would never know and hence we can argue either way, but here is a bet - Detroit is not reaching the finals this year and we will come back and talk about this again after the ECF.
 
Obviously this is a tough one. Anyone who says either team would win easily has lost their marbles, because the Kings of 02 were obviously one of the deepest teams in the league in a while, and we had 5 possible all-stars, as do the pistons of today.

As far as matchups, Bibby would at least match Billups, Christie and RIP would be intersting to watch, but Christie was a defensive mastermind at the time, so it wouldn't be as easy as some may think. Peja vs Prince would be hard to say, especially because of how Prince has played against him, but it's not like there aren't other players the kings would be able to put at the SF if needed. Webber did like to play against RWallace, and Webber at the time was a superstar and at least as good as wallace is now. Vlade and BenW would be an intriguing matchup, since they are polar opposites, but I think the kings woudl have the one-up, just because of how the kings offense runs through Vlade, and how well he played against lowdown threats. Plus, we had Pollard & Clark to bring in, so... BJax could be brought in as needed, as could Hedo, Jim Jackson, and Damon Jones. While Detroit today has Evans, Arroyo, McDyess and Delfino, they don't quite match the kings bench of that year.

One thing the Pistons of this year have been blessed with that the Kings havn't always is essentially complete health. Not a single starter has missed a single start. Lucky fans...

Man, this thread got me lookin back at how the kings have done in the playoffs in the last five years, and seeing how close we came to what we wanted so badly...erg to the Lakers, erg to the Mavs, erg to the Wolves.
 
It'd go 7 for sure, both teams were too talented and too competitive and focused for one or the other to take it in 4, 5 or 6.

People comparing the starting lineups aren't really thinking things through all the way. Doug was a RELENTLESS defender in those days. He made Kobe work hard for everything, some of you are really fooling yourself if you don't think Christie would force Hamilton into at least one poor shooting night.
Peja would have some trouble with Prince, but Prince isn't that physical and the Kings would've gotten him some open looks with the way Vlade and Webber could screen and pass.
Wallace vs. Webber would be the hardest matchup. Wallace has always given Webber (and the rest of our bigs) trouble but even that one isn't so bad because you saw how passively Wallace played at times in the Finals. You can't torch the other team if your head isn't even in the game.
Billups/Bibby isn't the overwhelming win for the Pistons either. Selective memory I guess, because Bibby was quicker back then (before his the stress fracture in his foot) and much more aggressive off the dribble.
Vlade would be able to hold his own against Wallace and he absolutely would be able to score on him on the block. Wallace has always had trouble defending 7 footers in the post one-on-one and doubling Vlade in the post was asking for trouble back then. If Vlade could average 16ppg against Shaq in '02 (who you absolutely could not post against) then he could get some buckets on Big Ben. Believe it.
The big name that I don't see people mentioning and this is a big factor: Bobby Jackson. The '02 playoffs were when he really came into his own, he was just a demon on both sides of the ball. The Pistons don't have anything on the bench that could match him and if Bobby + Bibby are clicking at the same time it'd be a long night for Billups.

It's funny how time changes perceptions. Back in '03 people were debating a historical matchup between the contrasting styles of the '02 Kings and the "Bad Boy" Pistons. Now the debate is whether those Kings would even stand a chance with this current Pistons team. Are the Kings really playing bad enough to devalue previous rosters?
 
AleksandarN said:
First of all it would be Kobe vs. Prince and Prince is the only one in the NBA that can slow down Kobe like he did 2004. Rip would run circles around fox if they were matched up. Chauncey rip Fisher to shreads. Ben and Shaq would be closer then you think. I would say Detriot in 5 against the Fakers.
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Are you kidding? I think Shaq of '02 would average close to 40 and 20 a game against Big Ben. So how much closer is Ben going to make that matchup, compared to what I think it'd be like?
 
Kev.in said:
Are you kidding? I think Shaq of '02 would average close to 40 and 20 a game against Big Ben. So how much closer is Ben going to make that matchup, compared to what I think it'd be like?
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You are kidding me right 40 and 20 ok now. Ben is probably the strongest center in league he does not have the lenght that Shaq obviousily but he would be albe prevent Shaq getting in decent position under the basket. That is how they were able to beat LA in 2004. The further Shaq is from the basket the better.
 
AleksandarN said:
You are kidding me right 40 and 20 ok now. Ben is probably the strongest center in league he does not have the lenght that Shaq obviousily but he would be albe prevent Shaq getting in decent position under the basket. That is how they were able to beat LA in 2004. The further Shaq is from the basket the better.
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The fatter the Shaq the better. When Shaq at least resembled a fit athlete all Ben could manage against him was not to be embarrassed, but could not slow him down a lick if the Fatso was on. Foul out more like it.
 
vladetomiller said:
AS some one pointed out here earlier about the 5 vs 8 game the finals between the lakers and the pistons was also considered in the same vein, more because when you have a player like Kobe who is driving to the basket that many times there is no way any players whether it be prince or bowen, cant foul him more than 4 times a game. That just is impossible, more because the number of touches the player gets rather than the defensive prowess that you can see.

The argument that you put here about Chauncey, rip and Ben is exactly what the arguments we were having here in 02, Bibby would kill fisher, peja would run circles around fox and Vlade/Pollard combination is closer to shaq than you think. I will in fact tell that Vlade was closer to shaq in terms of having an effect on the game and there is no way ben gets closer to shaq of 02.

But again we would never know and hence we can argue either way, but here is a bet - Detroit is not reaching the finals this year and we will come back and talk about this again after the ECF.
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Did you watch the 2004 series between Kobe and Prince? Also Detroit has what our team never had I am afraid and that is Mojo or confidence needed to win the championship. I see the Pistons and I see what we never had, championship poise:( That was what prevented us from winning against the Lakers that year. We did not have the poise and confidence of Champion.
 
bozzwell said:
The fatter the Shaq the better. When Shaq at least resembled a fit athlete all Ben could manage against him was not to be embarrassed, but could not slow him down a lick if the Fatso was on. Foul out more like it.
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I tend to disagree the bigger that Shaq got the harder it is for the opposing player to get position on him or prevent him from getting into position.
 
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