Evans for Vasquez
- Thread starter Uncia03
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There's one more thing I'd like to say about this saga, even if we've already said everything. We always talk about Reke's skills, and how good of a player he is. Don't you think our FO maybe has also considered his personality? I don't know, it's just my opinion based on my thoughts, but I'm not sure Tyreke has that special thing inside that superstars have. And this, could be the reason why our FO may believe he'll never be a star.
We always say that he's been a true professional here, accepting all the bs and never complaining. Is that a good thing after all? Do you think that Kobe, or Garnett, or LeBron, Parker, Paul, etc. would accept a situation like that? Don't you think that their willingness to be great, to win, would have made them have some sort of reaction? They would have made this their team, making sure everybody knew they were the best players. That's what stars do. Tyreke just accepted his role. Same thing now. I just read on Twitter that he's ok being a 6th man in NO. A 6th man for a 25 wins team, at 23 years old. Do you see any of the stars, or borderline stars of this league accepting this kind of role? I don't for sure. I could understand if he was 35, but at 23 you must want to be the man, if you have that special fire inside, which is what separate superstars from very good players.
We wanted Tyreke to be our man, or our 2nd best player. Maybe our FO doesn't think he has the personality to be a leader, so the decision maybe wasn't made only on his skillset.
We always say that he's been a true professional here, accepting all the bs and never complaining. Is that a good thing after all? Do you think that Kobe, or Garnett, or LeBron, Parker, Paul, etc. would accept a situation like that? Don't you think that their willingness to be great, to win, would have made them have some sort of reaction? They would have made this their team, making sure everybody knew they were the best players. That's what stars do. Tyreke just accepted his role. Same thing now. I just read on Twitter that he's ok being a 6th man in NO. A 6th man for a 25 wins team, at 23 years old. Do you see any of the stars, or borderline stars of this league accepting this kind of role? I don't for sure. I could understand if he was 35, but at 23 you must want to be the man, if you have that special fire inside, which is what separate superstars from very good players.
We wanted Tyreke to be our man, or our 2nd best player. Maybe our FO doesn't think he has the personality to be a leader, so the decision maybe wasn't made only on his skillset.
Cap space to Sac is like that super model who winks at you out of the kindness of her heart, giving you the impression you have a chance, then she goes after the guy who has the mansion on the beach and lives the Hollywood lifestyle.
Sure there's a chubby, middle aged millionaire living in Minnesota who can offer her a good life style, but in reality he stood little chance.
Sure there's a chubby, middle aged millionaire living in Minnesota who can offer her a good life style, but in reality he stood little chance.
Well you gotta have to pass and rack up assists (and certainly contributes) when any smart team plays six feet off of you in tight games daring you to shoot.
Kidd didn't develop a 3 till the last few years in his career, Rondo didn't develop a 3.
Yes. obvioulsy he desnt know.
Even with Kidd and Rondo, 2 out of the last 23 years of champions.
Kidd didn't develop a 3 till the last few years in his career, Rondo didn't develop a 3.
Yes. obvioulsy he desnt know.
Even with Kidd and Rondo, 2 out of the last 23 years of champions.
He was a complimentary piece who meant more when surrounded by star talent in Webb, Peja and Bibby. Great locker room guy and teammate, but hardly a game changing talent.
Go after guys like Vlade and Christie, it's great, but you still need the star talent. Complementary players don't mean as much without the star talent they surround, and we just traded a 23 yr old star talent for a complimentary piece.
Go after guys like Vlade and Christie, it's great, but you still need the star talent. Complementary players don't mean as much without the star talent they surround, and we just traded a 23 yr old star talent for a complimentary piece.
Vasquez isn't a long term keeper, but he's on the cheap for one more year and we have the option for the QO after that. So as everyone's been saying, cap space, cap space and cap space.
I have a lot of issues with Vasquez, but we'll start with what everyone knows him to be: he's an oversized PG--6'6"--and is a really, really good passer who could get within 10 feet of the basket and wheel and deal. Also, he was playing for the slog of slogs offensively in Monty Williams' uber-slow paced offense. Malone's more known for his defensive turnarounds as an assistant, though, so I'm not sure we'd be getting as fast as we were under Keith Smart. But two things: New Orleans' habitually inflates the assist numbers of their players (Chris Paul, Darren Collison, now Vasquez)--now I'm not doubting that Vasquez can't pass, but just a footnote. Also, something tells me if all other things were constant, and Vasquez were 6'2", he'd be out of the league. Why? Let's talk about it below:
Vasquez is already 26 years and played nearly 35 minutes a game for 78 games this season, and...he had 0 dunks. That's almost blasphemy. If we had a below the rim finisher in Evans, Vasquez is probably 1000x worse. Probably the worst 6'5" and above guy in dunking since Toronto's Alvin Williams. Not that he gets all the way to the basket. He's so unathletic that most of the time he stops short of the basket and has to go for runners, which to his credit, he does a good job of converting, but he never draws fouls, so tradeoffs and all that. He was also the fourth worst at defending shots in New Orleans, but to his credit he's a really good rebounder for a PG, and between the rebounding and the passing there's some triple double ability with this guy.
Vasquez just appears to me to be more sizzle than steak. He's deceptively quick and can get to his spots and stuff the stats, but he's completely unathletic particularly for his size and his defense sucks. I don't think it's to the point where he's hemorrhaging, and he'll have uses organizing our team, but we will probably do better for our long term solution. I hope we only have him for this one year and then let him go afterwards.
As for Evans, I've always thought he needed a change of scenery, with what's perceived as a downward trajectory after supposedly peaking in his rookie year, but we provided that this season with the whole front office/coach re-make, but if the reports are true it's a real shame we alienated him. To be honest, I'm not sure if that's New Orleans. I like their whole young guns dynamic with Holiday-Gordon-Evans, but their coach as mentioned played at a slog's pace last year, so he'll severely ramp up the pace to generate more offensive possessions for their young alpha dogs. Also, none of the three are sharpshooters, and although Holiday and Gordon have showed some potential on that front, both of them are more decent to good than great, so there might be a few spacing issues. All three of them prefer to get into the painted area to create for themselves or others, by and large.
Defensively, Evans was really packing the rebounding and was comparatively lacking at guarding shots, but Evans has fared better on defense in past seasons and is significantly better at disrupting in general, so there's a lot more defensive hope from him than from Vasquez. Evans is truly unique as well--among PGs this year, and most likely in other years, he gets to the basket the most per possession, and draws fouls well. Sure, nothing compares to how he was drawing fouls in his rookie year, because he's lost a step, but still, he's insanely good at this--he led the league in layups made last year, and was close this year (Greg Monroe !!!). Yeah, he's decidedly below the rim, even compared to PGs who are likely three or four inches below him in height, but he's a layup and foul drawing machine. Yeah, he's not much of a jumpshooter and a worse passer than Vasquez for sure, but Evans niche as a layup rim-attacking monster with defensive tools is so unique compared to Vasquez's passing, that even with the payday you almost have to take Evans. It's not often that you discover these players, and you surround them with shooters to cover up for weaknesses. We didn't quite do that with the personnel, so hopefully we won't pay the price in future years.
I have a lot of issues with Vasquez, but we'll start with what everyone knows him to be: he's an oversized PG--6'6"--and is a really, really good passer who could get within 10 feet of the basket and wheel and deal. Also, he was playing for the slog of slogs offensively in Monty Williams' uber-slow paced offense. Malone's more known for his defensive turnarounds as an assistant, though, so I'm not sure we'd be getting as fast as we were under Keith Smart. But two things: New Orleans' habitually inflates the assist numbers of their players (Chris Paul, Darren Collison, now Vasquez)--now I'm not doubting that Vasquez can't pass, but just a footnote. Also, something tells me if all other things were constant, and Vasquez were 6'2", he'd be out of the league. Why? Let's talk about it below:
Vasquez is already 26 years and played nearly 35 minutes a game for 78 games this season, and...he had 0 dunks. That's almost blasphemy. If we had a below the rim finisher in Evans, Vasquez is probably 1000x worse. Probably the worst 6'5" and above guy in dunking since Toronto's Alvin Williams. Not that he gets all the way to the basket. He's so unathletic that most of the time he stops short of the basket and has to go for runners, which to his credit, he does a good job of converting, but he never draws fouls, so tradeoffs and all that. He was also the fourth worst at defending shots in New Orleans, but to his credit he's a really good rebounder for a PG, and between the rebounding and the passing there's some triple double ability with this guy.
Vasquez just appears to me to be more sizzle than steak. He's deceptively quick and can get to his spots and stuff the stats, but he's completely unathletic particularly for his size and his defense sucks. I don't think it's to the point where he's hemorrhaging, and he'll have uses organizing our team, but we will probably do better for our long term solution. I hope we only have him for this one year and then let him go afterwards.
As for Evans, I've always thought he needed a change of scenery, with what's perceived as a downward trajectory after supposedly peaking in his rookie year, but we provided that this season with the whole front office/coach re-make, but if the reports are true it's a real shame we alienated him. To be honest, I'm not sure if that's New Orleans. I like their whole young guns dynamic with Holiday-Gordon-Evans, but their coach as mentioned played at a slog's pace last year, so he'll severely ramp up the pace to generate more offensive possessions for their young alpha dogs. Also, none of the three are sharpshooters, and although Holiday and Gordon have showed some potential on that front, both of them are more decent to good than great, so there might be a few spacing issues. All three of them prefer to get into the painted area to create for themselves or others, by and large.
Defensively, Evans was really packing the rebounding and was comparatively lacking at guarding shots, but Evans has fared better on defense in past seasons and is significantly better at disrupting in general, so there's a lot more defensive hope from him than from Vasquez. Evans is truly unique as well--among PGs this year, and most likely in other years, he gets to the basket the most per possession, and draws fouls well. Sure, nothing compares to how he was drawing fouls in his rookie year, because he's lost a step, but still, he's insanely good at this--he led the league in layups made last year, and was close this year (Greg Monroe !!!). Yeah, he's decidedly below the rim, even compared to PGs who are likely three or four inches below him in height, but he's a layup and foul drawing machine. Yeah, he's not much of a jumpshooter and a worse passer than Vasquez for sure, but Evans niche as a layup rim-attacking monster with defensive tools is so unique compared to Vasquez's passing, that even with the payday you almost have to take Evans. It's not often that you discover these players, and you surround them with shooters to cover up for weaknesses. We didn't quite do that with the personnel, so hopefully we won't pay the price in future years.
no, re-signing tyreke evans does not qualify as keeping the same team. it would have qualified as keeping one of two important cornerstone pieces (demarcus being the other)...
PG tyreke evans
SG ben mclemore
SF matt barnes
PF jason thompson
C demarcus cousins
that team can shoot, handle, move the ball, attack the rim, rebound, and, most importantly, it can defend (on the wing, at least). when the team cuts down on opposing penetration, then DMC/thompson don't have to work as hard with their limited defensive skillsets. a longterm answer at PF is still necessary, but if mclemore comes as advertised, you have a versatile team above, and one that stands a chance to win some games with defense...
but with vasquez as starter, you can kiss the dream of a lockdown defensive backcourt goodbye. it also makes it hard to justify signing a guy like matt barnes, who is strictly a roleplayer, when the team clearly needs to find a way to acquire a legitimate #2 to pair with DMC. now the kings must make a splash in free agency, because DMC isn't gettin' it all done on his own. and, if they aren't able to bring in a talent with at least all-star potential, then they must place considerably more faith in ben mclemore than is probably appropriate for a player of his current limitations. i just don't like it one bit. waaaaaaay too many what-ifs, especially when evans' talent is obvious and could have been had at a reasonable offer, considering both his production and the level of efficiency at which he delivered that production...
the lineup above was beyond doable. having already drafted mclemore, you re-sign evans to a reasonable 4/$44 million, bring matt barnes back as a hometown hero and pesky defender, upgrade the bench wherever possible, and consider any and all outside options at PF. that would have been a successful offseason. but now they've given themselves more work to do than i believe is necessary, with no guarantee that they'll be able to replace evans' talent as a penetrator (and i simply cannot believe how undervalued that skillset is around these parts). if everyone wants to play the "i trust vivek" card, that's fine. but, from where i'm sitting, i'm not liking the view of things. they've already alienated andre iguodala, so that option's more than likely off the table. so who is this team bringing to town to pair with demarcus cousins that has, at the very least, all-star potential? oh, and for the record, vasquez ain't it. he's a high level roleplayer, but he doesn't have star-level talent...
PG tyreke evans
SG ben mclemore
SF matt barnes
PF jason thompson
C demarcus cousins
that team can shoot, handle, move the ball, attack the rim, rebound, and, most importantly, it can defend (on the wing, at least). when the team cuts down on opposing penetration, then DMC/thompson don't have to work as hard with their limited defensive skillsets. a longterm answer at PF is still necessary, but if mclemore comes as advertised, you have a versatile team above, and one that stands a chance to win some games with defense...
but with vasquez as starter, you can kiss the dream of a lockdown defensive backcourt goodbye. it also makes it hard to justify signing a guy like matt barnes, who is strictly a roleplayer, when the team clearly needs to find a way to acquire a legitimate #2 to pair with DMC. now the kings must make a splash in free agency, because DMC isn't gettin' it all done on his own. and, if they aren't able to bring in a talent with at least all-star potential, then they must place considerably more faith in ben mclemore than is probably appropriate for a player of his current limitations. i just don't like it one bit. waaaaaaay too many what-ifs, especially when evans' talent is obvious and could have been had at a reasonable offer, considering both his production and the level of efficiency at which he delivered that production...
the lineup above was beyond doable. having already drafted mclemore, you re-sign evans to a reasonable 4/$44 million, bring matt barnes back as a hometown hero and pesky defender, upgrade the bench wherever possible, and consider any and all outside options at PF. that would have been a successful offseason. but now they've given themselves more work to do than i believe is necessary, with no guarantee that they'll be able to replace evans' talent as a penetrator (and i simply cannot believe how undervalued that skillset is around these parts). if everyone wants to play the "i trust vivek" card, that's fine. but, from where i'm sitting, i'm not liking the view of things. they've already alienated andre iguodala, so that option's more than likely off the table. so who is this team bringing to town to pair with demarcus cousins that has, at the very least, all-star potential? oh, and for the record, vasquez ain't it. he's a high level roleplayer, but he doesn't have star-level talent...
That's a good point, people aren't aware of the one hit wonder which was Collison. He was supposed to be the next break out PG after playing under Monty, yet completely fell off. And NO seems to be aware that's a distinct possibility with Vasquez which is why they acquired Holiday at the first opportunity and then threw 44M at Reke. Doesn't speak to a franchise having much confidence in Vasquez.
Vivek/PDA got taken to school on this. NO sold high. They fooled us just as some were fooled by Collison. Career averages of 9/5.7, a single decent season at 26 on a worse team than ours, and PDA/Vivek couldn't help themselves. They bought the hype NO was selling.
Vivek/PDA got taken to school on this. NO sold high. They fooled us just as some were fooled by Collison. Career averages of 9/5.7, a single decent season at 26 on a worse team than ours, and PDA/Vivek couldn't help themselves. They bought the hype NO was selling.
Except that he's not a star. I don't know where you got this notion that Tyreke is a star or has the potential to be a star but he isn't and he isn't going to be a star.
He doesn't have enough skills to be a star, he doesn't make his teammates better like so many stars do, and he doesn't have the personality to be a star.
Steph Curry has turned into a star. He keeps getting better and he's making his teammates better. You know Steph Curry is the same guy that Petrie passed on in the draft in favor of Tyreke. The same Steph Curry that when the rookie-of-the-year discussions were going on, many Kings fans trashed Curry and said he'll never be as good as Tyreke, not as athletic, not as fast, not as strong, not as good of finisher. Those points were all true, Curry is slower, less athletic, not as strong, etc. yet here we are years later and Curry has already become a star while Tyreke never really got any better.
Turns out leadership and immeasurable intangibles are more important to becoming a star player than just sheer athletic ability.
Pete D'Alessandro is letting Evans walk because he doesn't see a star in Evans. I'm sure he sees a good player (nobody will deny that) but he doesn't see a real star or leader that makes other players better. As I said earlier today on a team like the Spurs as a 3rd option, no doubt Tyreke would have real value but he'd never be the first or second option on a winning team. Some have said he could stay here and be the 3rd option but come on let's be real, we know a guy that needs the ball in his hands like Tyreke is not going to let guys like Cousins and McLemore reach their full potential.
If McLemore especially is going to become an all-star caliber player it wasn't going to happen with Tyreke here. Tyreke would have essentially been the Monta Ellis of that equation, hogging the ball and getting in the way.
He doesn't have enough skills to be a star, he doesn't make his teammates better like so many stars do, and he doesn't have the personality to be a star.
Steph Curry has turned into a star. He keeps getting better and he's making his teammates better. You know Steph Curry is the same guy that Petrie passed on in the draft in favor of Tyreke. The same Steph Curry that when the rookie-of-the-year discussions were going on, many Kings fans trashed Curry and said he'll never be as good as Tyreke, not as athletic, not as fast, not as strong, not as good of finisher. Those points were all true, Curry is slower, less athletic, not as strong, etc. yet here we are years later and Curry has already become a star while Tyreke never really got any better.
Turns out leadership and immeasurable intangibles are more important to becoming a star player than just sheer athletic ability.
Pete D'Alessandro is letting Evans walk because he doesn't see a star in Evans. I'm sure he sees a good player (nobody will deny that) but he doesn't see a real star or leader that makes other players better. As I said earlier today on a team like the Spurs as a 3rd option, no doubt Tyreke would have real value but he'd never be the first or second option on a winning team. Some have said he could stay here and be the 3rd option but come on let's be real, we know a guy that needs the ball in his hands like Tyreke is not going to let guys like Cousins and McLemore reach their full potential.
If McLemore especially is going to become an all-star caliber player it wasn't going to happen with Tyreke here. Tyreke would have essentially been the Monta Ellis of that equation, hogging the ball and getting in the way.
Well, at this point, capspace is our only friend, other than straight trades. Its like the chicken or egg thing. Your really can't have one without the other. My point is, if were going to be sitting here in this situation, with Tyreke gone, its better to have capspace with which to work, than to have none. I realize that in the recent past, capspace has been squandered when we had it. But its not fair to lay those expectations on the new ownership. Were only 4 days into freeagency. Lets wait and see what they can do.
i also want to note the unfortunate hypocrisy we've thus far witnessed from ranadive and d'allesandro. they claim that they want players who are hungry, who want to be here. they drop a massive offer for andre iguodala, considering his age and potential for decline, then they rescind that offer because iguodala failed to give them an immediate answer, an apparent sign of his lack of commitment to sacramento. all the while tyreke evans is making it clear that he is hungry to help this team win, and that it is his preference to stay in sacramento (at a price much more satisfactory than the very contract that d'allesandro had just offered iggy), yet tyreke gets the boot... for grievis vasquez??
far too many kings fans fail to appreciate what it means to have a young high-level talent committed to remaining with the franchise, committed to growing with it and winning with it. tyreke evans is a young, 23-year-old power guard with an elite rim attack and all-star potential, but he never let his ego get in the way. not once. i want to thank him for that. he was jerked around for four years, played out of position, given inconsistent minutes, and he never demanded a trade. he never upset the locker room. i want to thank him for that. and, despite it all, he wanted to stay here, even after vivek ranadive and pete d'allesandro decided that they were not going to make him a free agent priority. i want to thank him for that. thanks for stayin' classy, 'reke, even when sacramento didn't deserve it...
while i love this team, and while i remain excited by its future and happy that it has any future at all in sacramento, if it continues to lose games, and if tyreke evans goes on to help new orleans re-establish itself as a winning franchise, then the kings deserve exactly what they get. i've maintained that, at the very least, you re-sign evans and trade him on your terms if you don't envision him in your future plans. but grievis vasquez does not represent value-in-return, nor do the couple of 2nd-rounders that were thrown in. it's a pathetic haul, and i'm embarrassed for our front office because of it. can't believe i'd see the day when the kings would out-do the face-palm of a trade that brought jimmer fredette and john salmons here. there was much more at stake this time around, and they blew it...
far too many kings fans fail to appreciate what it means to have a young high-level talent committed to remaining with the franchise, committed to growing with it and winning with it. tyreke evans is a young, 23-year-old power guard with an elite rim attack and all-star potential, but he never let his ego get in the way. not once. i want to thank him for that. he was jerked around for four years, played out of position, given inconsistent minutes, and he never demanded a trade. he never upset the locker room. i want to thank him for that. and, despite it all, he wanted to stay here, even after vivek ranadive and pete d'allesandro decided that they were not going to make him a free agent priority. i want to thank him for that. thanks for stayin' classy, 'reke, even when sacramento didn't deserve it...
while i love this team, and while i remain excited by its future and happy that it has any future at all in sacramento, if it continues to lose games, and if tyreke evans goes on to help new orleans re-establish itself as a winning franchise, then the kings deserve exactly what they get. i've maintained that, at the very least, you re-sign evans and trade him on your terms if you don't envision him in your future plans. but grievis vasquez does not represent value-in-return, nor do the couple of 2nd-rounders that were thrown in. it's a pathetic haul, and i'm embarrassed for our front office because of it. can't believe i'd see the day when the kings would out-do the face-palm of a trade that brought jimmer fredette and john salmons here. there was much more at stake this time around, and they blew it...
Given you've been a ghost for years and have yet to show you understand the numerous issues with this franchise or how Reke fits, and have hundreds, if not thousands of posts detailing the issues you've never attempted to refute, why would I waste my time at this point laying out how elementary in substance your posts are?
Just popping in and saying Reke/Cuz won't work and Holiday/Reke won't work lol, shows such little understanding on your part it's really not worth the time. There's so much you have yet to touch on or even show you comprehend. If I missed the post(s) from you detailing all the things which went wrong and why Reke still is worth giving up for Vasquez and cap space, I apologize, just please copy and paste the insight you've provided so I better understand your thought process.
Just popping in and saying Reke/Cuz won't work and Holiday/Reke won't work lol, shows such little understanding on your part it's really not worth the time. There's so much you have yet to touch on or even show you comprehend. If I missed the post(s) from you detailing all the things which went wrong and why Reke still is worth giving up for Vasquez and cap space, I apologize, just please copy and paste the insight you've provided so I better understand your thought process.
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