Evaluating players by mock drafts is lazy. Does that mean you as a whole are lazy? No, of course not. I'm not criticizing you or judging you if you haven't looked into the draft that much, I don't care, that's your business, but in that case, perhaps you should take a more humble approach in regards to evaluations of particular draft prospects.
Who is available as 6th-7th pick
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Re-read my post. You are basically agreeing with me.
Yet the guards were getting the ball to the bigs for assists in MIL. My point is you have 2 guards that many feel are shoot first types especially in Ellis that averaged a combined 12.5 apg vs IT and Evans 7.5. I have no issue with Evans apg numbers as a 2 or 3 playing more off the ball, in order for him to be considered creating for teammates those numbers should be closer to 6 apg at the 2 or 3. For those that want him as a PG his apg should be over 8.
Yet the guards were getting the ball to the bigs for assists in MIL. My point is you have 2 guards that many feel are shoot first types especially in Ellis that averaged a combined 12.5 apg vs IT and Evans 7.5. I have no issue with Evans apg numbers as a 2 or 3 playing more off the ball, in order for him to be considered creating for teammates those numbers should be closer to 6 apg at the 2 or 3. For those that want him as a PG his apg should be over 8.
ludicrous. absolutely ludicrous. here's the list of nba pg's who average 8 or more assists per game this last season:
rajon rondo - 11.7 apg
chris paul - 9.7 apg
greivis vasquez - 9.0 apg
jrue holiday - 8.0 apg
...yup. that's it.
http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerGeneral.html?filters=AST*GE*8&sortField=AST&sortOrder=DES
as a rookie pg with no one to pass to, evans averaged 5 assists per game. with improved shot selection and decision making, and a worthy supporting cast, tyreke evans could average anywhere from 6-7 apg, and that would be more than adequate for a combo guard of his caliber. ellis and jennings dominate the ball at all times for MIL, hence the high assist numbers. tyreke was shoved primarily off-ball this last season, hence the lower assist numbers. you have to have the ball in your hands to be credited with an assist, friend...
rajon rondo - 11.7 apg
chris paul - 9.7 apg
greivis vasquez - 9.0 apg
jrue holiday - 8.0 apg
...yup. that's it.
http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerGeneral.html?filters=AST*GE*8&sortField=AST&sortOrder=DES
as a rookie pg with no one to pass to, evans averaged 5 assists per game. with improved shot selection and decision making, and a worthy supporting cast, tyreke evans could average anywhere from 6-7 apg, and that would be more than adequate for a combo guard of his caliber. ellis and jennings dominate the ball at all times for MIL, hence the high assist numbers. tyreke was shoved primarily off-ball this last season, hence the lower assist numbers. you have to have the ball in your hands to be credited with an assist, friend...
On Schroeder, I'd be surprised if he doesn't rise up even more by the time of the draft. He looks very talented to me. Super quick, high IQ, good shooter and very good defender. Don't see what's not to like. And 6'1'' is not small for an NBA PG, it's about average - he'd be in the middle of the pack. It won't be a problem for him.
This isn't his rookie year anymore. People need to let that go. There is film on him now and defenses know how to play him. He's not the same guy as 4 years ago.
And you just proved my point. Yes his usage is down. If it were to go up I expect those numbers to go up with it especially if you want him playing 36 mins per game.
Now lets put some perspective on those assist numbers since its a raw assist and doesn't factor in min/game.
While I don't like assist/48 min it the only option for comparison atm
For PG's
1. Rondo 14.2
2. CP3 13.9
3. Vasquez 13.6
4. Rubio 11.9
6. Parker 11.0
7. Andre Miller 10.8
10.Tie Holiday 10.3
12. Tie Westbrook 10.2
16. Lin 9.0
19. Curry 8.7
20. Jennings 8.6
21. Conely 8.5
25. Lillard 8.0
28. Ellis 7.7
33. IT 7.1
43. Evans 5.5
As a SG Evans is #7 behind
Iggy/Kobe tie 7.5
Harden 7.3
Jordan Crawford 6.3
Redick 6.0
Mayo 5.9
E'Twaun Moore 5.9
As a SF hes #7 as well.
And you just proved my point. Yes his usage is down. If it were to go up I expect those numbers to go up with it especially if you want him playing 36 mins per game.
Now lets put some perspective on those assist numbers since its a raw assist and doesn't factor in min/game.
While I don't like assist/48 min it the only option for comparison atm
For PG's
1. Rondo 14.2
2. CP3 13.9
3. Vasquez 13.6
4. Rubio 11.9
6. Parker 11.0
7. Andre Miller 10.8
10.Tie Holiday 10.3
12. Tie Westbrook 10.2
16. Lin 9.0
19. Curry 8.7
20. Jennings 8.6
21. Conely 8.5
25. Lillard 8.0
28. Ellis 7.7
33. IT 7.1
43. Evans 5.5
As a SG Evans is #7 behind
Iggy/Kobe tie 7.5
Harden 7.3
Jordan Crawford 6.3
Redick 6.0
Mayo 5.9
E'Twaun Moore 5.9
As a SF hes #7 as well.
you ignore a healthy portion of my argument regarding the management of the kings franchise, the makeup of its roster, and the coaching decisions made with respect to that roster. if you look at damn near every name on that list you provided, you'll also see a team surrounding each of those players that can effectively receive passes leading to the raw assists in your statistical analysis. evans didn't have that when he started at pg. it's not even close, in that respect. who was there to pass to during his rookie season, exactly? after kevin martin was traded, you will not see a single player of evans' caliber, just disappointments like spencer hawes, omri casspi, and donte greene, and middling talents like carl landry (an iso-player and notorious black hole on offense) and beno udrih. honestly, it's rather amazing that evans averaged 5 apg that year, if you ask me. but using tyreke evans' current assist numbers is disingenuous, as he's played sg primarily, while also seeing time at sf, in each instance playing mostly off-the-ball...
Right now as we sit if we just are going to straight draft for this current team, I take MCW. He is like a bigger more athletic Andre Miller, and even thought he isn't a great shooter, he has much better form than Miller. I think he is exactly what this team needs.
1. MCW
2. Evans
3. ???
4. Thompson
5. DMC
Bench:
MT
Jimmer or IT (one has to go)
Patterson
Aldrich
I think we can trade salmons as an expiring and package MT with something somewhere. These will get us out SF/other role player.
1. MCW
2. Evans
3. ???
4. Thompson
5. DMC
Bench:
MT
Jimmer or IT (one has to go)
Patterson
Aldrich
I think we can trade salmons as an expiring and package MT with something somewhere. These will get us out SF/other role player.
This has almost nothing to do with the argument, so well done for that. Padrino already addressed the other huge holes in your argument, which you refuse to see or even acknowledge, so I'll leave it at that. If you don't think 'Reke could average 6-7 assists at PG with a proper coach and system, there's something wrong with you. And it's a silly benchmark anyway, apg doesn't really indicate anything other than just that, apg. Makeup of the team is much more important.
indeed. and when a team is made up of at least two special players, your odds of scaling the standings are better than without them. the problem is that keith smart, much more often than not, failed to recognize just how special cousins and evans are. demarcus has the finesse to initiate from the high post. tyreke has the strength to post up smaller guards. a good coach, a creative coach, will seek to exploit the matchup advantages these two players offer, rather than put either at a disadvantage by misusing them, shoving them out of position, or alienating them from their own talent...
if the kings can acquire a SF who can handle, move the ball, and defend, a la doug christie, and a pg who can handle, move the ball, hit the occasional jumper, and generally stay out of the way, a la beno udrih, then they're a step closer to putting this puzzle together, and apg has nothing to do with it. you spread around that responsibility when you have unique talent capable of accomplishing more than a "traditional" pg ever could...
if the kings can acquire a SF who can handle, move the ball, and defend, a la doug christie, and a pg who can handle, move the ball, hit the occasional jumper, and generally stay out of the way, a la beno udrih, then they're a step closer to putting this puzzle together, and apg has nothing to do with it. you spread around that responsibility when you have unique talent capable of accomplishing more than a "traditional" pg ever could...
It doesn't matter if Evans averages 6-7 assists. He doesn't have PG instincts. I think he can do fine getting "bail out" assists when his shot isn't there but I am not wanting someone like that to run the PG. I want a PG that makes others around him better. Burke is ideal for me, but I would also take a chance on MCW.
Whether Evans is a special player is still in the air. He's a good player, but special is going a bit far for someone who isn't even an all-star and that averages 13-15ppg.
Whether Evans is a special player is still in the air. He's a good player, but special is going a bit far for someone who isn't even an all-star and that averages 13-15ppg.
It's not about PG, it's about increasing the usage rate. I was using PG as an example for the people who want him moved back to PG to compare to other PG's in the league. Evan playing as a SG his assists don't add up compared to other top SG. So expecting him to have better numbers as a PG is misleading, it's won't happen. Which brings back full circle to the whole point, this team needs someone who can be a facilitator because they don't have one on the team now.
the lack of vision you two display is astounding. you're both so woefully limited in your conception of how an nba team can be built. yet the memphis grizzlies and the indiana pacers have proved you wrong, as two teams living it up in the conference finals with grind-it-out offenses and limited pg's. mike conley and george hill are both combo guards who are not true "facilitators." they don't have particularly strong "pg instincts." in fact, they are not so dissimilar from tyreke evans in their skill sets. but tyreke has a much stronger rim attack than both. he is a better rebounder than both. he's catching them in the jumpshooting department, and he has the potential to be just as good as either, defensively...
and make no mistake, the kings should be looking to build a strong defensive team, because that's the entry fee to get into the playoffs and to advance in the playoffs. surround demarcus cousins and tyreke evans with defensive roleplayers who can move the ball and hit the occasional jump shot, and this team can get to the postseason. personally, i don't care whether tyreke plays pg or sg. he's like a hybrid of dwayne wade and mike conley. his skill set is unique, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. pair him with a guard who has a complementary skill set, and the roles will work themselves out. but they don't need a "facilitator." they don't need some magical, pretty, dreaming-of-ricky-rubio offense. they just need a balanced roster that spreads around the responsibility of ball movement...
and make no mistake, the kings should be looking to build a strong defensive team, because that's the entry fee to get into the playoffs and to advance in the playoffs. surround demarcus cousins and tyreke evans with defensive roleplayers who can move the ball and hit the occasional jump shot, and this team can get to the postseason. personally, i don't care whether tyreke plays pg or sg. he's like a hybrid of dwayne wade and mike conley. his skill set is unique, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. pair him with a guard who has a complementary skill set, and the roles will work themselves out. but they don't need a "facilitator." they don't need some magical, pretty, dreaming-of-ricky-rubio offense. they just need a balanced roster that spreads around the responsibility of ball movement...
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No, I am saying a lot of his assists are bailout assists rather than the assist where you swing it, or where he gets creative with the intention of dumping it to someone else (intentional drive and kick)
He has got better at seeing the floor in the last year or two but I still only want him as a part time PG rather than being penciled in as the starter going forward.
He has got better at seeing the floor in the last year or two but I still only want him as a part time PG rather than being penciled in as the starter going forward.
No, you are narrow minded on how a team is built and keep trying to push something that does not work. And don't even start to compare Conley's floor generalship to Evans. It's not even close to being comparable. Hill on the other hand.. .ehhh.. He's about as close to Evans as we have seen succeed. I would still take Hill over Evans though if given the chance. He's (in my opinion) better than Evans in what makes a PG a PG but Evans is a better 1 on 1 player.
In a lot of your posts you mention potential potential potential. Or he has the skills to be this or that. How long do you want to give it? Another 4-5 years? Come on, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on..
And calling Evans special? Please... Get your head out of your *** and look at it objectively rather than through those rose colored goggles. He's not a special player. There are 50 players I would take over Evans that are in the NBA right now.
My whole issue is that Evans is not a PG. No matter how much you want him at PG won't make him a good PG. He's never been a good PG in college, or in the NBA. Sometimes you should just stop forcing something and move him to his natural position. i.e SG.
In a lot of your posts you mention potential potential potential. Or he has the skills to be this or that. How long do you want to give it? Another 4-5 years? Come on, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on..
And calling Evans special? Please... Get your head out of your *** and look at it objectively rather than through those rose colored goggles. He's not a special player. There are 50 players I would take over Evans that are in the NBA right now.
My whole issue is that Evans is not a PG. No matter how much you want him at PG won't make him a good PG. He's never been a good PG in college, or in the NBA. Sometimes you should just stop forcing something and move him to his natural position. i.e SG.
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The George Hill argument doesn't make any sense to me. It's as if George Hill is the reason behind the Pacers success? Or Augustine? I look at those guys playing against Miami and ask: If they had a real pg, what would that team look like? Answer: A lot better than they do currently. The mediocre pg play is part of the reason for their turnover prone team. It's not their strength; it's their weakness.
As for Connelly, he's not a combo guard. At least he can break down the defense. I don't see that from the Pacers' guards.
As for Connelly, he's not a combo guard. At least he can break down the defense. I don't see that from the Pacers' guards.
he's a tremendously special talent. it's not rose-colored glasses. just because keith smart saw fit to reduce his minutes down to 31 mpg, shove him off-ball, and alienate him from his own talent, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. now, if you want to side with keith effing smart, well, that's your prerogative, i suppose...
but here's the deal: there are maybe five guards in the entire nba who get to the rim as frequently as evans does per possession. and when he gets there, he's money. he shoots 64% at the rim. for comparison, russell westbrook shoots 61% at the rim. james harden shoots 65% at the rim. that is special company, and that is what wins in the nba, along with defense...
golden state flamed out in the playoffs because san antonio took away the warriors' outside shooting. once that was gone, once steph curry and klay thompson were neutralized, nobody could get to the rim except for jarrett jack, of all people. and jarrett jack doesn't take you to the next level. but a guy like tyreke evans can. there are obvious precedents in the contemporary nba, guys like westbrook, harden, and wade not the least among them...
now, if you don't think a guard that can score at the rim at will--while also rebounding well, moving the ball well, and defending well--is special... well, i don't know what to tell you. you are, after all, the guy who still prefers ricky rubio's 7 assists per game and 36% shooting to anything tyreke evans does on the court, no matter how spectacular it is:
but here's the deal: there are maybe five guards in the entire nba who get to the rim as frequently as evans does per possession. and when he gets there, he's money. he shoots 64% at the rim. for comparison, russell westbrook shoots 61% at the rim. james harden shoots 65% at the rim. that is special company, and that is what wins in the nba, along with defense...
golden state flamed out in the playoffs because san antonio took away the warriors' outside shooting. once that was gone, once steph curry and klay thompson were neutralized, nobody could get to the rim except for jarrett jack, of all people. and jarrett jack doesn't take you to the next level. but a guy like tyreke evans can. there are obvious precedents in the contemporary nba, guys like westbrook, harden, and wade not the least among them...
now, if you don't think a guard that can score at the rim at will--while also rebounding well, moving the ball well, and defending well--is special... well, i don't know what to tell you. you are, after all, the guy who still prefers ricky rubio's 7 assists per game and 36% shooting to anything tyreke evans does on the court, no matter how spectacular it is:
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my argument isn't that george hill is the reason behind the pacers' success. my argument is that you can win early and often without a natural facilitator, without these vaunted "pg instincts" that a certain contingent of kings fans always pine for...
point is, if indiana and memphis can win as they do, with the guards they employ, then certainly the kings can create a winning culture with tyreke evans as their lead guard, as long as they commit to a culture of defense. let me put it this way: imagine tyreke evans' on either the pacers or the grizzlies, with a coach intent on harnessing his defensive potential and his rim attack, and perhaps you might be willing to see my point...
point is, if indiana and memphis can win as they do, with the guards they employ, then certainly the kings can create a winning culture with tyreke evans as their lead guard, as long as they commit to a culture of defense. let me put it this way: imagine tyreke evans' on either the pacers or the grizzlies, with a coach intent on harnessing his defensive potential and his rim attack, and perhaps you might be willing to see my point...
A lot will depend on his individual workouts. He impressed me with his speed in the one and only game I saw him play. Dude is super quick. Personally, I'm not that interested in aquiring another PG, unless someone convinces me that he's a difference maker. Some of it is that I'm just sick and tired of talking about PG's. We drafted Evans to play the point. Then we drafted Fredette, followed by Thomas, and went out and signed Aaron Brooks, followed by trading for Toney Douglas, and were still talking about drafting another PG. I get tired of eating chicken everynight as well. Sorry, but I'd like to talk about someone taller than 6'4".
I don't think its fair to compare the two years Tyreke played PG with the current Tyreke. I've always felt that Tyreke's biggest problem playing the point was his decision making. I watched him carefully last season, even though he wasn't at the point, I felt that the decision making part of his game had improved quite a bit. Was it perfect? Of course not, but it was much better. So I'm of the mind that if you aquire a good head coach that can give some direction to Tyreke, and surround him and Cousins with complimentry players, he could easily average 7 or 8 assists a game.
I don't think the position came naturally to him, but now he's been in the league a while, and he has experience he didn't have his first two years. I'd like to see what he can do. I realize that there's an ellement of risk here because of his restricted status, and the committment the team would have to make to keep him. But I think he's a talent, and you keep talent.
I don't think the position came naturally to him, but now he's been in the league a while, and he has experience he didn't have his first two years. I'd like to see what he can do. I realize that there's an ellement of risk here because of his restricted status, and the committment the team would have to make to keep him. But I think he's a talent, and you keep talent.
Exactly. Assists are a wonky measurement in any case. NBA statisticians rarely agree on any given play where a dribble is involved whether it results in an assist or not.
I am still of the opinion that a top tier PG is fool's gold in the NBA. Chris Paul is an exceptional player, yet, he has never brought a team within sniffing distance of a conference championship. Jason Kidd only got his ring when he surrendered ball-handling and settled on a perimeter role. In the end, superior size will always trump the skills of the smallest player on the opposing team.
I would much rather have a team where 6 players average four assists per game than a team where 1 player averages 14. That's on the coach more than the players.
I am still of the opinion that a top tier PG is fool's gold in the NBA. Chris Paul is an exceptional player, yet, he has never brought a team within sniffing distance of a conference championship. Jason Kidd only got his ring when he surrendered ball-handling and settled on a perimeter role. In the end, superior size will always trump the skills of the smallest player on the opposing team.
I would much rather have a team where 6 players average four assists per game than a team where 1 player averages 14. That's on the coach more than the players.
again, is this the limit of your vision? i wasn't claiming that tyreke evans should play like mike conley. i was claiming that evans and conley have similar skillsets, but that evans is a stronger player in almost every respect, and that if you run evans at the pg, it would be as a combo guard who primarily provides scoring, but can move the ball effectively, as well, particularly if he's surrounded by unselfish roleplayers that complement he and demarcus cousins...
what's your obsession with the term "point guard," anyway? they're almost an instinct breed in the contemporary nba. the game has evolved considerably at the position. most prime-time pg's are now combo guards. westbrook is. parker is. etc. i don't care what you call tyreke evans. if it shuts up a certain contingent of the fanbase, i'd happily see him remain a sg, as long as he has the ball in his hands more often than his counterpart in the backcourt...
what's your obsession with the term "point guard," anyway? they're almost an instinct breed in the contemporary nba. the game has evolved considerably at the position. most prime-time pg's are now combo guards. westbrook is. parker is. etc. i don't care what you call tyreke evans. if it shuts up a certain contingent of the fanbase, i'd happily see him remain a sg, as long as he has the ball in his hands more often than his counterpart in the backcourt...
I don't prefer Rubio's 7 assists or 30% shooting. I prefer Rubio's COURT VISION and the ability to make others around him better. Why are we even comparing Evans and Rubio anyway? They play two different positions.
Also, while Smart isn't a good coach by NBA standards, he's still better than any of us so there had to be a reason why he cut Evans minutes which probably had to do with the glutton of SGs we had and Smart's ability to see that Evans is not a PG.
Also, while Smart isn't a good coach by NBA standards, he's still better than any of us so there had to be a reason why he cut Evans minutes which probably had to do with the glutton of SGs we had and Smart's ability to see that Evans is not a PG.
indeed. since he was traded to the clippers, i've maintained that chris paul needs to shed some of his unselfishness. he has the skill and the killer instinct to carry his team in much the same way that derrick rose does, when healthy. blake griffin is a beast of an athlete, but he doesn't have the drive that paul has. not yet, anyway. at a certain point, CP3 needs to be averaging 20 pts or more per game, particularly in the playoffs. passing lanes can be shut down. but it can be tough to shrug off an elite scorer that can get to the rim/free throw line at will...
But Evans doesn't have the same as Conley. Conley has a floater that is a big part of his game. And no I don't think Evans needs to ball more in his hands. That doesn't mean he should be taking less shots, but that his decision making shouldn't be increased. Give him the ball off a screen going to the basket is fine. Handing him the ball standing on the wing or the top is not.
i'm not. but you recently made the rather strange claim that any gm in the league would prefer rubio to evans at this stage of their careers, and it exposed your bias. it also calls into question your ability to recognize a truly "special" player. rubio's court vision is nice, but court vision alone can't get a team to the playoffs. points in the paint and defense can...
anyway, you still haven't addressed my point regarding the elite company tyreke keeps at the rim, and what that skill is worth to a team...
anyway, you still haven't addressed my point regarding the elite company tyreke keeps at the rim, and what that skill is worth to a team...