How the Kings Rotation and Sub Patterns Should be...

twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#1
#1
Hey Guys,

I just wanted to post a rotation and sub pattern idea for all of you and see how i compared to Smart's rotation. So here it goes...

First Quarter:

This rotation plays for the first 8 minutes:
Brooks
Evans
Salmons
Thompson
Cousins

This rotation plays for the last 4 minutes:
Brooks
Thornton
Evans
Hayes
Cousins

Second Quarter:

This rotation plays for the first 2 minutes:
Thomas
Thornton
Johnson
Hayes
Cousins

This rotation plays for the next 4 minutes:
Thomas
Thornton
Johnson
Hayes
Thompson

This rotation plays for the next 2 minutes:
Brooks
Thornton
Evans
Robinson
Thompson

This rotation plays for the last 4 minutes:
Brooks
Thornton
Evans
Robinson
Cousins

Frist Half Minute Distribution:

Cousins - 18 min
Evans - 18 min
Brooks - 18 min
Thornton - 16 min
Thompson - 14 min
Hayes - 10 min
Salmons - 8 min
Thomas - 6 min
Johnson - 6 min
Robinson - 6 min

Third Quarter:

This rotation plays for the first 6 minutes:
Brooks
Evans
Salmons
Thompson
Cousins

This rotation plays for the next 2 minutes:
Brooks
Thornton
Evans
Hayes
Cousins

This rotation plays for the last 4 minutes:
Thomas
Thornton
Evans
Hayes
Cousins

Fourth Quarter:

This rotation plays for the first 2 minutes:
Brooks
Salmons
Johnson
Hayes
Thompson

This rotation plays for the next 3 minutes:
Brooks
Thornton
Salmons
Robinson
Thompson

This rotation plays for the last 7 minutes:
Evans
Thornton
Salmons
Thompson
Cousins

Second Half Minute Distribution:

Cousins - 19 min
Evans - 19 min
Salmons - 18 min
Thornton - 16 min
Thompson - 16 min
Brooks - 13 min
Hayes - 8 min
Thomas - 4 min
Robinson - 3 min
Johnson - 2 min

Complete Game Minute Distribution:
Cousins - 37 min
Evans - 37 min
Thornton - 32 min
Thompson - 32 min
Brooks - 31 min
Salmons - 26 min
Hayes - 18 min
Thomas - 10 min
Robinson - 9 min
Johnson - 8 min

We always have at least 2 good 3pt shooters on the floor at all times. We always have at least a decent ballhandler on the floor at all times (One of the reasons why I opted to go with Thomas versus Fredette in my rotation). We always have either Cousins or Thompson on the floor. And We always have at least 1 of Cousins, Evans, or Thornton on the floor besides the first 2 minutes of the 4th quarter. I think this team would be very successful with a rotation like this. All the starters would be getting above 30 minutes besides Salmons who would be at 26 min, but overall, I think we would be a serious competitor this year with this rotation.
 
t-rex

t-rex

Bench
#2
#2
Jimmer deserves some PT and the Kings need his offensive contributions. I'm not a Jimmer Fan, I'm a kings fan stating the obvious.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#3
#3
t-rex said:
Jimmer deserves some PT and the Kings need his offensive contributions. I'm not a Jimmer Fan, I'm a kings fan stating the obvious.
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I tend to favor Thomas because of his ballhandling, defense, playmaking, driving ability, and athletic abilities compared to Fredette. Thomas is also a very good 3pt shooter which makes the tradeoff between Fredette and Thomas very small.

In order for this team to be successful, we can't play all 3 of our PGs without cutting into Brooks, Evans, or Thornton's minutes. I think Thomas brings more to the table at this point. He offers a variety of skills rather than just Jimmer's niche which is shooting the ball.

Don't get me wrong, I would be very satisfied with Fredette getting 4th guard minutes if Thomas wasn't on the team, but at this point, I am still going with Thomas.
 
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t-rex

t-rex

Bench
#4
#4
twslam07 said:
I tend to favor Thomas because of his ballhandling, defense, playmaking, driving ability, and athletic abilities compared to Fredette. Thomas is also a very good 3pt shooter which makes the tradeoff between Fredette and Thomas very small.
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IT's defense hasn't been anything special this year. I did notice his 3 Turnovers last night. Ballhandling? Also, Jimmer leads the team in 3pt % this year. If anything, this year I tend to favor Jimmer.
 
t-rex

t-rex

Bench
#5
#5
Where's IT's assists gone? He is a PG right? Seems like he's more interested in driving to the basket or shooting the basketball. At least brooks is getting his teammates involved. I believe Jimmer still has the game-high assist total for the Kings this year with 6 in limited minutes of course.
 
UK_King

UK_King

Starter
#6
#6
It's pretty obvious IT has been forcing things most of the season, has the odd good stretch but he's throwing some difficult passes and is clearly running before he walks, so to speak on some plays. I like IT a lot and was a bit miffed when he was benched tbh, but whatever it takes to get the ball in Tyrekes hands must, must, must be done. Simple as that.

If we want to win, Tyreke needs to be handling the ball every time down the court, and playing the two man game with Cuz.

If you see what the Wolves did down the stretch, it involved a lot of Luke + Love 2 man game, that just got Love a lot of open shots and 3's. Ok he wasn't filling it up but every shot was a good one, It's actually baffling to me why we don't do it more often.
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#7
#7
When IT played in the starting lineup, despite IT for ROY campaign, he was not a guy defenses particularly care about. Yes, when he got into the lane, he was rotated to, but there were at least 3 guys defenses cared much more about. Now he's one of 3 creators when Smart puts the whole bench in. Thornton is dealt with by his primary defender sticking to him and can't get open due to a major problem #2 - pathetic screens, which takes him out entirely. Part of the problem he's 6'4" and is guarded by SGs, sometimes SFs which means he's shorter than his opponent sometimes significantly which kills his chances of paint scoring which he needs badly to open up perimeter. People who live off moving off the ball and have success tend to be 6'7" or higher. Hayes becomes useless the moment he parts with the ball, and that might be the reason for all those Hayes' random offensive plays around the basket - trying to make opponent feel that they can't cheat off of him or there will be problems, strategy that fails miserably most times. So IT gets a lot of attention and has to make more risky plays, which leads to TOs-->less confidence--> even more TOs.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#8
#8
I wish Keith Smart put in as much effort AND WROTE IT DOWN SO HE DIDN'T FORGET. I think a lot of us including the team would be happier. I could quibble about a few players but the point of having a regular pattern and rotating people in instead of the mass 5 man mass sub seems far more like what the rest of the coaches in the league do. Nice job.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#9
#9
I could be wrong but I just don't recall any NBA coach who pulls the entire starting line up at one time and puts 5 cold guys in at once. Whatever the rotation is, just don't do that. And shorten it to 8, maybe 9 guys like other winning teams do.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#14
#14
sidney said:
I could be wrong but I just don't recall any NBA coach who pulls the entire starting line up at one time and puts 5 cold guys in at once. Whatever the rotation is, just don't do that. And shorten it to 8, maybe 9 guys like other winning teams do.
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At least not any NBA coach who was around long enough for us to even remember his name. :)
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#15
#15
Gilles said:
When IT played in the starting lineup, despite IT for ROY campaign, he was not a guy defenses particularly care about. Yes, when he got into the lane, he was rotated to, but there were at least 3 guys defenses cared much more about. Now he's one of 3 creators when Smart puts the whole bench in. Thornton is dealt with by his primary defender sticking to him and can't get open due to a major problem #2 - pathetic screens, which takes him out entirely. Part of the problem he's 6'4" and is guarded by SGs, sometimes SFs which means he's shorter than his opponent sometimes significantly which kills his chances of paint scoring which he needs badly to open up perimeter. People who live off moving off the ball and have success tend to be 6'7" or higher. Hayes becomes useless the moment he parts with the ball, and that might be the reason for all those Hayes' random offensive plays around the basket - trying to make opponent feel that they can't cheat off of him or there will be problems, strategy that fails miserably most times. So IT gets a lot of attention and has to make more risky plays, which leads to TOs-->less confidence--> even more TOs.
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I agree with quite a bit of what you say. Truth is, when the other team puts a good defender on Thronton, he struggles to score at times. He's not a player that excells at creating his own shot. Don't get me wrong, he can create, but he's a long way from unstoppable. He becomes far more effective when he's playing with the starting unit, when all the attention isn't on him. I'll give Thornton his due though, he certainly makes the most of what he has.

I was curious to see how IT would fare in the NBA. At Washington, whenever the other team was able to put a good defender on IT that was taller, but just as quick, he struggled big time. Plus, his outside shot was very inconsistent at Washington. He surprised me last year, looking like a player that had played in the NBA for a couple of years. This year, he's having a harder time of it. The NBA giveth, and the NBA taketh away. Team learn what you like to do, and where you don't like to shoot from, and they make you adjust. At least a couple of times he's struggled on offense when he was guarded by a taller, but just as quick player. IT is an offensively aggressive player, whether he's trying to create for himself, or another player. As a result he's always going at high speed. When your going at highspeed, and the other team starts taking away things you like to do, you start to make mistakes, and thats whats happening to IT on occasion.

The problem is, that when IT slows down, he loses some of his effectiveness, and becomes easier to guard. Obviously, smaller PG's start out with a disadvantage. IT is quick, there's no denying that. But John Wall is just as quick, and 7 inches taller. So thats a disadvantage from the get go. So sorry, IT fans, but when I see IT's future, its coming off the bench. No shame in that. If not for the Kings, I'm sure some NBA team.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#16
#16
buckwheat said:
The only good 3 point shooter we have is Jimmer wasting away on YOUR bench.
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Last 5 games played.

3P%

Brooks- 52.9%

Reke- 44.4%

Jimmer- 40%

Thornton- 37.5%

He's far from our only good 3pt shooter of late. I do think he deserves to get IT's minutes and supplant IT in the rotation, and Jimmer does spread the floor, but he's not our lone outside threat. Another issue is he's hitting off the dribble and not off spot ups, and in watching him he's looking far more for his own shot than setting up others, which is what a PG needs to do. Are we better with Jimmer coming down and chucking 3's and rarely getting assists? Doubtful. He had a 6 ast game, but outside of that he's only gotten more than a single assist once, and that was two assists against LA. Can he be an asset off the ball? I think so, but Smart aint playing him that way, so right now our offense basically is put on hold so Jimmer can chuck.
 
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Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#17
#17
I think given a larger sample and IF Jimmer gets regular minutes, he will be our best three point shooter but certainly he is not OUR only three point shooter. I don't know what happened between this year and last year (I can speculate) but Jimmer this year looks like the Jimmer from college days. Unfortunately for the Jimmer fans, there is more to NBA basketball than shooting. I definitely would give him IT's minutes and let IT sit on the bench getting no minutes as Jimmer has an upside far higher than IT. There ARE reasons IT was drafted last.

Jimmer is very much a guy who shoots off the dribble or with a simple side step which we haven't seen yet.
 
M

mac

All-Star
#18
#18
sidney said:
I could be wrong but I just don't recall any NBA coach who pulls the entire starting line up at one time and puts 5 cold guys in at once. Whatever the rotation is, just don't do that. And shorten it to 8, maybe 9 guys like other winning teams do.
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Hey, I do it on NBA Live all the time and it seems to work fine!
 
tyreeeke

tyreeeke

Bench
#19
#19
rainmaker said:
Last 5 games played.

3P%

Brooks- 52.9%

Reke- 44.4%

Jimmer- 40%

Thornton- 37.5%

He's far from our only good 3pt shooter of late. I do think he deserves to get IT's minutes and supplant IT in the rotation, and Jimmer does spread the floor, but he's not our lone outside threat. Another issue is he's hitting off the dribble and not off spot ups, and in watching him he's looking far more for his own shot than setting up others, which is what a PG needs to do. Are we better with Jimmer coming down and chucking 3's and rarely getting assists? Doubtful. He had a 6 ast game, but outside of that he's only gotten more than a single assist once, and that was two assists against LA. Can he be an asset off the ball? I think so, but Smart aint playing him that way, so right now our offense basically is put on hold so Jimmer can chuck.
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What are the stats for the season? Secondly, Jimmer hasn't been given the minutes IT and those others get to prove himself. Jimmer is by far the best shooter on this team.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#21
#21
rainmaker said:
Last 5 games played.

3P%

Brooks- 52.9%

Reke- 44.4%

Jimmer- 40%

Thornton- 37.5%

He's far from our only good 3pt shooter of late. I do think he deserves to get IT's minutes and supplant IT in the rotation, and Jimmer does spread the floor, but he's not our lone outside threat. Another issue is he's hitting off the dribble and not off spot ups, and in watching him he's looking far more for his own shot than setting up others, which is what a PG needs to do. Are we better with Jimmer coming down and chucking 3's and rarely getting assists? Doubtful. He had a 6 ast game, but outside of that he's only gotten more than a single assist once, and that was two assists against LA. Can he be an asset off the ball? I think so, but Smart aint playing him that way, so right now our offense basically is put on hold so Jimmer can chuck.
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All of that is why Jimmer probably should NOT be getting IT's minutes off the bench. Off the bench he becomes the PG next to Thornton. You cannot have the PG next to Thronton just coming down looking to chuck up his own junk. the whole offense comes to a standstill. IT works next to Thornton -- or at least old IT did. He handles the creating shots. Jimmer and Thornton really don't look to be a good fit on either side of the ball.

We've got 2 star type guards or guys who could be. Noen of them are named Brooks, Thomas or Fredette (although Brooks had thoughts of being one once). Next to Reke you need a supplementary ballhandller who let's him do most of the ballhandling, and excels at spot shots off of dribble kicks. Derek Fisher. Mario Chalmers. Those guys. Next to Thornton you need an unselfish pure PG creater type. Preferably who can defend because otherwise your backcourt defense will be awful. That guy doens't need to be able to shoot especially, because Marcus will do most of that. If Jimmer fits either of those descriptions its the Reke running mate. Except Brooks is more experienced, more accomplished, possibly as good a distance shooter, and much quicker and more creative in spurts.
 
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twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#22
#22
t-rex said:
IT's defense hasn't been anything special this year. I did notice his 3 Turnovers last night. Ballhandling? Also, Jimmer leads the team in 3pt % this year. If anything, this year I tend to favor Jimmer.
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I am not judging Isaiah's skills compared to the league. I am comparing them to Fredette's skills. Everything I said was true in my post, but maybe I can organize it in a better manner so you can have an easier time understanding.

What skills does Thomas have that are more advanced than Fredette's skills
Defense
Ballhandling
Playmaking
Driving ability
Athleticism

What skills does Fredette have that are more advanced than Isaiah's skills
Shooting
Height

As a backup PG, I would rather have Thomas right now. We can't pair Fredette up with Thornton in the second unit (not enough ballhandling and not enough defense). It is not a recipe for success. The only player that Fredette can play with, without being greatly exploited, would be Evans. You could also make a case for Salmons, but a Fredette and Salmons backcourt doesn't really excite me. With that being said, it is hard to work a player into the rotation when there is only one other player who can make up for his deficiencies on the roster. He needs to improve some of his skills which will hopefully allow him to be a more flexible rotation option rather than only having to be paired with Evans.

You might ask, "why don't we just start him with Evans?" Well we have Brooks who is more athletic, a better ballhandler, a better passer, a better defender, and a great 3pt shooter. Fredette is not good enough yet to surpass Brooks and take his minutes. So for now, he rides the bench until he improves his skills more.
 
S

spudfan

Starter
#23
#23
Good post twslam. I would rather have Jimmer as the backup however. As you say, until he improves his skills more he rides the bench. Well the quickest way for him to improve is being out on the court. I feel his ceiling is much higher than IT, and as we are not in the hunt for a championship I want to develop those I see as possible long term players. I can't picture IT as ever being better long term than Jimmer so that's why he would get my pick as the player to get the backup minutes. If you think IT has the potential to be better than Jimmer though, I would have zero arguments with him getting all the minutes. For me it comes down to who you think will be more useful in few years, not who is more useful now.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#24
#24
Bricklayer said:
All of that is why Jimmer probably should NOT be getting IT's minutes off the bench. Off the bench he becomes the PG next to Thornton. You cannot have the PG next to Thronton just coming down looking to chuck up his own junk. the whole offense comes to a standstill. IT works next to Thornton -- or at least old IT did. He handles the creating shots. Jimmer and Thornton really don't look to be a good fit on either side of the ball.

We've got 2 star type guards or guys who could be. Noen of them are named Brooks, Thomas or Fredette (although Brooks had thoughts of being one once). Next to Reke you need a supplementary ballhandller who let's him do most of the ballhandling, and excels at spot shots off of dribble kicks. Derek Fisher. Mario Chalmers. Those guys. Next to Thornton you need an unselfish pure PG creater type. Preferably who can defend because otherwise your backcourt defense will be awful. That guy doens't need to be able to shoot especially, because Marcus will do most of that. If Jimmer fits either of those descriptions its the Reke running mate. Except Brooks is more experienced, more accomplished, possibly as good a distance shooter, and much quicker and more creative in spurts.
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Those are good points, but this isn't the IT of last year we're seeing. Yes, in theory, if IT were penetrating and kicking and setting up MT how he did last year I'd probably agree, but we're not seeing IT really set anyone up.

Jimmer does have his faults too, and I'm really not comfortable in either being the backup PG if we're honest and would prefer Reke/MT when Brooks is out. But Jimmer has handled pressure better and is shooting better this year. While he's still a below average defender, I think IT has trended that way as well. Looking at the way Jimmer has played, i think it gives us more to work with, even with a Jimmer/MT backcourt.

I say that because even though one of my biggest criticisms of Jimmer thus far this year is him pretending to be back at BYU and running a one man show, it seems to be more because of Smart telling him to do that and to play that way. If Smart actually told him to settle down, run the offense a little more, and at least get that first pass into the high post, then I think he and MT work. Basically, I think Jimmer is more capable of playing team ball and creating than he's showing, and to me that's because of what Smart has been whispering in his ear. Take Jimmer's play of late and alter his role, and I'd like to see what happens.

I could support either IT or Jimmer getting the backup mins though, as long is Smart flat out picks one and stops this constant musical chairs act.
 
kingsnation

kingsnation

All-Star
#25
#25
Good post OP.

I'd make a couple changes, this is just my preference. I'd go from a 10-man rotation to a 8 or 9 man rotation.

Here's my 8:

C- DMC, Hayes
PF - JT, DMC/Hayes
SF - Salmons, JJ
SG - Reke, MT
PG - Brooks, Reke

Besides fatigue or injuries - this is my 8. I really don't care about anyone else's minutes because IMHO, they're not making a difference on the floor. T-rob and IT would be next off of the extended bench. T-rob would be the only guy I'd actually want in the lineup for spot minutes here or there.

Please no one mention to me that Jimmer leads our team in 3pt % either. I don't care. There is more to basketball than chucking 3's - even if you are successful. Yes there is a place for that in the NBA - but his time will come. Right now, as others have stated - other guys on the team offer far more than Jimmer.

I think there's a distinct advantage in having an 8 or 9 man rotation. Roles are very easily identified and everyone know's their role. You also have less battles for minutes AND you always have at least 1 or 2 starters on the floor AT ALL TIMES.

Our 2002 team, which was only the greatest Kings team of all time, used an 8 man rotation. Vlade, Webb, Peja, Doug, Bibby, Bobby, Hedo, Pollard. That was it. They knew their roles, they knew their minutes. Of course, pending fouls or injuries, you'd see Fundy or Wallace.

Of course, once again, that sort of rotation was utilized by a HOF Coach. So, there's step one of solving the rotation problem.
 
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t-rex

t-rex

Bench
#26
#26
kingsnation said:
Right now, as others have stated - other guys on the team offer far more than Jimmer.
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That's debatable. Jimmer won't develop and reach the potential a lot of you are talking about unless he gets off the pine. He was drafted high and is showing improvement from last year to this year and is being rewarded with less minutes because of what? The rest of the players offer so much more this year? That's a freaking joke. Trade him or see if he can help the team out with more minutes. By the way, this year IT's defense and ball handling has not been better than Jimmer. If anything it's worse. Jimmer has improved. IT has digressed. End of story.
 
chief bromden

chief bromden

Starter
#27
#27
t-rex said:
That's debatable. Jimmer won't develop and reach the potential a lot of you are talking about unless he gets off the pine. He was drafted high and is showing improvement from last year to this year and is being rewarded with less minutes because of what? The rest of the players offer so much more this year? That's a freaking joke. Trade him or see if he can help the team out with more minutes. By the way, this year IT's defense and ball handling has not been better than Jimmer. If anything it's worse. Jimmer has improved. IT has digressed. End of story.
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I don't really have a horse in this race, as I think both IT and Jimmer can be useful NBA players. Maybe not as a starter on a winning team, but definitely a bench plug guy. Either way, I was interested in you saying that the 10th pick is a "high" draft position. I think that this a pretty hit or miss spot in the draft order, and some people believe the Kings reached for Jimmer even at 10. Anyway, I am wondering why you think that his draft position should influence the amount of playing time that he getting. Shouldn't it be based solely on his performance?
 
t-rex

t-rex

Bench
#28
#28
chief bromden said:
Anyway, I am wondering why you think that his draft position should influence the amount of playing time that he getting. Shouldn't it be based solely on his performance?
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Early on draft position should matter. He is a lottery pick who has shown vast improvement over last year. He's showing confindence and an ability to learn from his mistakes. This is a major positive and could mean continual improvment year after year. It's easier to write off a low draft pick or ride him on the bench early on. IT deserved more minutes last year based on performance which outweighed his draft position. Jimmer deserves more PT based on performance this year and is starting to show why he is more than a bench player.

The more I see Jimmer on the bench and excelling in limited minutes, the more I think he'll be another Kings pick who will flourish somewhere else. I can guarentee you there are GMs across the league who would love to give him ample opportunity to prove himself and help their team.
 
tyreeeke

tyreeeke

Bench
#29
#29
t-rex said:
Early on draft position should matter. He is a lottery pick who has shown vast improvement over last year. He's showing confindence and an ability to learn from his mistakes. This is a major positive and could mean continual improvment year after year. It's easier to write off a low draft pick or ride him on the bench early on. IT deserved more minutes last year based on performance which outweighed his draft position. Jimmer deserves more PT based on performance this year and is starting to show why he is more than a bench player.

The more I see Jimmer on the bench and excelling in limited minutes, the more I think he'll be another Kings pick who will flourish somewhere else. I can guarentee you there are GMs across the league who would love to give him ample opportunity to prove himself and help their team.
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Agreed. I have no doubt in my mind, whether it be in Sacramento or not, Jimmer will get his chance and a lot of people will be regretting their decisions regarding him. Then again, the Magoofs want to lose and they hired a lame duck coach that sold his soul for a paycheck...they won't care.
 
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