Go Back to Outscoring Other Teams

[ppine]

It seemed like at the end of last season the Kings were pushing the ball up the court and scoring at a much higher pace than the rest of the season. They could outscore people. Now they have an average or worse offense and the defense hasn't improved enough to overcome the defencies. The Kings are young and deep.

The Kings have the addition of the 3 decent players in Brooks, Johnson, and Robinson. They are winning less. There is little difference at most positions between the first five and the next seven. Cousins is the exception. What about the idea of returning to a run and gun team with frequent substitutions?" It might translate into a few more victories if they can get their average score up over 100 points.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Won't work...bad chemistry, bad synergy, clueless coach.

 

[treach1976]

Lol - it's a fair point. What would happen if the kings did this: Link to Grinnell System
Jimmer & IT would be instant MVP candidates! (some would argue this was Jimmer's game at BYU)

I'm joking of course, but at this point, what do the Kings have to lose? And Smart wouldn't have to feel bad about not playing every player.

 

[hrdboild]

Here's how the system works:

• The first shot is the best shot, no matter if it's from five feet or 25 feet, preferably 25 feet.

• Take as many 3-pointers as possible.

• Defensively, giving up an uncontested layup is better than forcing a shot-clock violation.

• The ball-handler is double-teamed at all times.

...

He needed to make a change, a dramatic one, and thus the Grinnell System – a variation of Paul Westphal's Loyola Marymount scheme, only on steroids – was born.

Well hello old friend!

 

[Gary]

I have to admit that watching this team getting 10 assists a night while turning it over 15-20 times is not fun to watch.

passing the ball ----> less 1 on 1 ----> less standing around ----> easier shots ----> more assists ----> more points

Smart's teaching players to;

scorers need to score ----> a lot of 1 on 1 ball ----> standing around by the other players ----> less passing ----> less assists ----> less points ----> less offensive rebounds and 2nd opportunities


Smart needs to go.

 

[tyreeeke]

What do you have to lose at this point? Make losing entertaining to watch.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Lol - it's a fair point. What would happen if the kings did this: Link to Grinnell System
Jimmer & IT would be instant MVP candidates! (some would argue this was Jimmer's game at BYU)

I'm joking of course, but at this point, what do the Kings have to lose? And Smart wouldn't have to feel bad about not playing every player.

"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos."

It's a gimmick system, but at least it's a system. If we implemented it such that a guy like Jimmer took 70 uncontested threes a night, shoot, we might be better than 2-8.

 

[UK_King]

our first play of the night against Brooklyn was a screen to get Tyreke a two pointer with his heels on the line....

If thats the kind of thing we're going to run i would rather see Jimmer throw up as many shots as he wants.

After Jimmer had some success playing, primarily off the ball, or collecting it in the half court, he was practically benched, before being asked to play full on point guard again against Brooklyn.... It doesn't seem to click with this coaching staff does it.

 

[tyreeeke]

This team can't handle Jimmer being a focal point on offense; their egos, immaturity, and selfishness won't allow it. They all want to get their 'shine on.' It doesn't matter that Jimmer is the best offensive player on this team. A strong leader at coach could solve that.

 

[UK_King]

Well usually the starting point would be "what are this guys strengths, right, how do we utilise them?"

It seems to be we've said "how do we make it really hard for this guy to have any success?"

And I'm talking about everyone now not Jimmer.

 

[pshn80]

I don't know about Jimmer but I like the idea of scoring more points than the opposition. Let's try that tonight. I'll be there with bells on.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Well hello old friend!

It was actually Paul Westhead not Westphal who coached that crazy LMU team with Hank Gathers & Co.(RIP) Westhead's system didn't translate very well in the NBA the last time he coached, with the Magic Johnson Showtime Lakers...to this day, Magic and Westhead still can't stand each other. BUT...his system DID work when he was with Denver, and Chris Jackson(Mahmood) & Michael Adams(former King)...it has everything to do with personnel, not sure how well it would work with Cuz/Tyreke/JT. At this point, I think if we get more than 15 wins this season it would be an accomplishment, with the powers that be in place.

 

[uolj]

It seemed like at the end of last season the Kings were pushing the ball up the court and scoring at a much higher pace than the rest of the season. They could outscore people. Now they have an average or worse offense and the defense hasn't improved enough to overcome the defencies. The Kings are young and deep.

The Kings have the addition of the 3 decent players in Brooks, Johnson, and Robinson. They are winning less. There is little difference at most positions between the first five and the next seven. Cousins is the exception. What about the idea of returning to a run and gun team with frequent substitutions?" It might translate into a few more victories if they can get their average score up over 100 points.

But run and gun didn't actually lead to wins either.

Maybe it's more fun to watch, but in order to improve the record they have to find a way to get some of both.

 

[jcwkings]

All our gaurds are much more effective playing run and gun (especially Tyreke), this team is not good enough to win playing half court offense. Also JT and Robinson thrive in an up and down game. I don't know why we aren't running more. At times we play like we are a bunch of 30+ year old vets.

 

[mac]

All our gaurds are much more effective playing run and gun (especially Tyreke), this team is not good enough to win playing half court offense. Also JT and Robinson thrive in an up and down game. I don't know why we aren't running more. At times we play like we are a bunch of 30+ year old vets.

And you know this because? Have you actually seen us try to run any proper half court offense? The problem is the coach doesn't even know how to draw up a proper half court offense.

 

[Gilles]

Not only that. but if looked through all Kings possessions so far this season you should see that Reke-Boogie P&R is working much better than whatever junk offense Kings play all the other times. Just watch some tape, Coach!

 

[rainmaker]

Running and gunning is a bunch of false hope which too many buy into. We wasted so much time doing it that almost a year after Smart was hired we still don't have a half court offense.

If Smart just studied what Westy did with this team, of all people, it'd be an improvement. That's embarrassing.

 

[Gary]

And you know this because? Have you actually seen us try to run any proper half court offense? The problem is the coach doesn't even know how to draw up a proper half court offense.

When they try to run half court offenses to you actually see it succeed enough to win enough games to make us a "decent" team? As it stands now the team sucks. No matter which lineup or offense we use this team is terrible. Might as well make it entertaining.

 

[mac]

When they try to run half court offenses to you actually see it succeed enough to win enough games to make us a "decent" team? As it stands now the team sucks. No matter which lineup or offense we use this team is terrible. Might as well make it entertaining.

Well I don't know under Smart, because I haven't seen him run any half court offense. I saw it work decently under Westphal, but that was when we had Beno too. And Omri who could at least hit a corner 3. What I do know is I've seen run and gun under Smart, and it hasn't worked. I also know that if we're ever going to be a playoff team we need to have a good half court offense. So if we're going to lose either way, I'd rather we be preparing some of the guys and teaching them to actually execute in the half court

 

[pshn80]

Coaches read the thread and it worked. Great theory tested and it worked. Now do it again.

 

[Tyndel]

When they try to run half court offenses to you actually see it succeed enough to win enough games to make us a "decent" team? As it stands now the team sucks. No matter which lineup or offense we use this team is terrible. Might as well make it entertaining.

There is losing and losing correctly. When you lose but you lay a foundation that can win in the future its more important then winning by luck and learning nothing(or even worse learning the wrong things). Watch the champions how do they win how do the teams they play against lose. Learn from that and make the changes needed to make it work with your players. If we wanted to watch pickup ball there are a lot of places but if you want to win it takes time and work on the right things.

There has to be a balanced approach to the game. If you focus only on offense then you will be killed no matter what and the same with defense. Why is that because they both tie into each other. A defensive play leads to easy offense and good offense leads to easier defense. Anyone in the NBA can play the open court so you need to work on the 1/2 court to win offense and defense together. And when you do reach the Playoffs you are playing in the 1/2 court much more because the defense ramps up meaning if your game is based on run and gun you will not win long term.

The problem we have had in the last 4+ years is we haven't been losing in the correct way. Every game we fail to lose or win in the right way puts our winning in post season farther away and ingrains bad habits. This is why every year we are looking at the lottery to save us or the right coach or whatever but the reality is we wasted the last 4 years not installing the right way to play in our players and so it takes longer for them to reach their potential and each bad habit they learn lowers that total potential. Learn to do it right and then get better at it.

Lets take last year for example. We have all the same pieces basically this year as we had last year aside from brooks and JJ.... And yet we are just now getting around to working on the 1/2 court offense. My problem with Smart is that he had an entire season to implement an offensive system(Offense is easy to learn in the season according to him) last year and then this off season to implement the defense. But instead we learned nothing at all last year on either side of the ball except that Reke shouldn't be a full time SF.... like we couldn't just logic that out.... Smart should have put us in the position to win this year by losing correctly last year instead we lost incorrectly and we learned nothing more then what we did in the off season. Wasted time leads to closed windows.

 

[Gary]

When they try to run half court offenses to you actually see it succeed enough to win enough games to make us a "decent" team? As it stands now the team sucks. No matter which lineup or offense we use this team is terrible. Might as well make it entertaining.

Just realized what I wrote.... Yikes..

What I meant to say was;

When the Kings run a half court offense, do you believe that they could succeed with it enough to make the Kings look "decent"? As it stands now the team sucks and I would rather they suck while entertaining me than suck while playing a boring style of offense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Just realized what I wrote.... Yikes..

What I meant to say was;

When the Kings run a half court offense, do you believe that they could succeed with it enough to make the Kings look "decent"? As it stands now the team sucks and I would rather they suck while entertaining me than suck while playing a boring style of offense.

They will never learn to unsuck unless they take their lumps playing it the right way.

 

[UK_King]

We're a long way into the season and i don't see an "offensive philosophy" emerging.

If we're going to be an ISO ball team then i wish we'd give the players most effective in that system the damn ball...

 

[bajaden]

One thing our guards aren't very good at, except Brooks, is using screens properly. Brooks is very good a picking his man off a screen, but IT, and Tyreke always leave room over the top for the defender to get through. On the other hand, some of our screens aren't set very well. Cousins is better this year at holding the screen long enough. Hayes is very good, But sometimes JT and Cuz try and cheat off the screen too soon thereby defeating the purpose. Sometimes our guards reverse off screens too soon, which should be done after going around the pick and if the defender goes under, you reverse back to get open. A lot of little mistakes that sometimes add up to poor scoring at times.

The pick and roll if run properly is hard to defend. The Kings at times make it far too easy to defend. Still a lot of work to be done.

 

[UK_King]

Cousins always fades on his screens, which is fine if you're going to swing the ball then hit him inside but we obviously never do that.

 

[Gary]

They will never learn to unsuck unless they take their lumps playing it the right way.

So you don't think the high octane, run and gun offense is legit? I think if done right it could work but the players have to be able to slow it down as well.

 

[mac]

So you don't think the high octane, run and gun offense is legit? I think if done right it could work but the players have to be able to slow it down as well.

Don't think it's legit. It's worked about once with the Suns a couple of years ago, but even then our team doesn't even have close to the number of 3 point shooters necessary to play like that successfully - and don't forget the Suns still ran a lot of pick and rolls with Nash and Amare. Oh yeah, there's that whole we don't have Steve Nash thing to consider, although some Jimmer fans would say we have Jimmer who's as good as Nash. The only other team that I see being successful with sort of a run and gun offense are the Heat. But again, they have 3 excellent perimeter defenders (and Chalmers isn't bad either) who run the floor better than anyone in the league, and have strength and athleticism to finish around the rim too. That, and a bunch of 3 point shooters to either spot up for 3s in transition or hit 3s off of Wade/LBJ kickouts. Bosh is essentially reduced to a jumpshooter on offense, albeit a very good one.

So here's the question - do we have shooters like Phoenix? Point guards like Nash? Do we have defenders all around who can force turnovers like Miami? 3 point shooters like Miller and Battier? Do we want to turn Cousins into a jumpshooter like Bosh?

 

[Goo]

I still think triangle is the way to go, maybe one day our offense will be as good as the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9rkgTkBsRo&feature=related

One can hope right?

 

[Chupacabra]

Unless the team play run and gun offense in addition to playing 48 minutes of in your face defense, i think that sort of offense is a no go. The most consistent form of winning basketball is achieved through a consistent defensive effort.