A pretty good video summary of Thomas Robinson's skills and weaknesses
- Thread starter Double-K
- Start date
Who are you to say that Drummond isn't going to be a good man defender who patrols the paint, plays good help defense, and alter shots at the rim? Are you writing him off without him ever playing one single game? When Drummond is by far the more physically gift player among all the guys you mentioned?
And who are you to say that Robinson is a far superior talent to Drummond? Robinson's draw is that he is a safe pick. But if Drummond lives up to his potential, he'll be better than Robinson. (note: not saying definitively one way or the other that Drummond will live up to his potential).
And who are you to say that Robinson is a far superior talent to Drummond? Robinson's draw is that he is a safe pick. But if Drummond lives up to his potential, he'll be better than Robinson. (note: not saying definitively one way or the other that Drummond will live up to his potential).
Heaven help us! A team who can't shoot! Never! Can't happen! Not in my league buddy!
Actually, I contend that it would not be easy to defend that team because they're going to take the ball from you and then they're going to ram it down your throat. Over and over again. Pack the paint all you want, but they're bigger than you, they're faster than you, and they work harder than you. (I'm not at all violent in real life, I swear.)
Actually, I contend that it would not be easy to defend that team because they're going to take the ball from you and then they're going to ram it down your throat. Over and over again. Pack the paint all you want, but they're bigger than you, they're faster than you, and they work harder than you. (I'm not at all violent in real life, I swear.)
Oh come on now. That's what we are all doing is projecting. You are the one who said that Robinson wouldn't be a shot blocker in the NBA. So we can just as easily ask back, who are you to say Robinson won't be a big time shot blocker? Why are you writing him off without playing one single game?
Sure, Drummond might develop into a good player, but he is a long ways from that. But Robinson had a far better college career and is a far more polished player and a physical freak in his own right.
And Paul Millsap does far more for his teams than Jordan. Swap the two players and the Clips are still a good playoff team and the Jazz are a lottery team.
Sure, Drummond might develop into a good player, but he is a long ways from that. But Robinson had a far better college career and is a far more polished player and a physical freak in his own right.
And Paul Millsap does far more for his teams than Jordan. Swap the two players and the Clips are still a good playoff team and the Jazz are a lottery team.
What? Saying that Robinson even has a chance of being a shot-blocker is dumb. He has never been one. That's like saying Anthony Davis may be a three point specialist. There's a difference between projecting and just pulling something out of one's donkey. Projecting is to predict the future using tangible evidence that is based in fact. Projecting that Drummond may become a great defender is projection based on fact - Drummond's calling card is his defense and physical gift! Saying that he may become a great defender is not out of the ordinary, in fact, that's exactly what the Piston are banking on. But saying that Thomas Robinson can be a shot-blocker is just being overly imaginative (to put it lightly). There is absolutely no basis for that prediction. Do you get it now?
You think the Clippers would trade DeAndre Jordan for Paul Millsap? Do you? If your answer is yes then you're clueless. If you answer is no then you just agreed with my point.
Pretty much my position in this. We either need a 3rd big who's a shotblocker/intimidator, or very good defenders at the 1,2 and 3 to cut off penetration. Don't need shotblocking as much if there's no penetration. However if it's a wide open runway to the rim like last year, you need rim protection. Ideally, I think we get an Asik type 3rd big and a defensive SF and make the best of it and try to cover any mismatches IT might have and seems the most realistic to me. Getting Lowry might change that though and a Lowry/Reke/TWill 1/2/3 perimeter wall also works.
But what we cannot have is a IT/Reke/MT/Jimmer quartet, no defensive SF or 3rd big shotblocker, which is what we have right now.
But what we cannot have is a IT/Reke/MT/Jimmer quartet, no defensive SF or 3rd big shotblocker, which is what we have right now.
Last edited:
Well, I think it's perfectly fair for him to project Drummond will be mediocre based on his tepid high school and college stats. Drummond may surprise, but if Vegas had odds for these things, "bust" would win you much less money than betting on "good player."
And yes, I do think the Clips might take it. If they didn't it would be because of age and their perception of Jordan's upside. If the trade was just for last season with no consideration about the future, then the Clips would say "yes" in a nanosecond. On the other hand, the Jazz don't even blink before rejecting that offer. Now for the long term, Jordan is 3 years younger and showed signs of progress last season, so that may be a different story.
Agree with both of you on this.
And think more than anything, we need Smart to coach the players on the concepts of Team D.
Most of our players were good individual defenders. According to Synergy Sports Isolation Defense (1 on 1)
Tyreke Evans #84
Cousins #117
IT #68
JT #33
Hayes #2
So we have some good individual defenders. Our bigger problem is our team D is atrocious. With the physical skill our players have and their individual displayed defensive prowess, we should't be one of the 2 worst defensive teams in the league.
And think more than anything, we need Smart to coach the players on the concepts of Team D.
Most of our players were good individual defenders. According to Synergy Sports Isolation Defense (1 on 1)
Tyreke Evans #84
Cousins #117
IT #68
JT #33
Hayes #2
So we have some good individual defenders. Our bigger problem is our team D is atrocious. With the physical skill our players have and their individual displayed defensive prowess, we should't be one of the 2 worst defensive teams in the league.
If you're considering measurables, check out hand size. Robinson had the longest of this years draft at the combine. Good, big hands can be associated with good, big rebounding numbers. Check out this excerpt from Sporting News after the combine. With long wingspan and big hands, height is not as much of a concern.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/sto...thomas-robinson-height-anthony-davis-wingspan
"Big winner, I
One scout told me of Kansas forward Thomas Robinson, “If he were 6-10, he would challenge Anthony Davis as the top pick.”
Well, he is not 6-10, but he did measure in at 6-8.75, which is big enough to play power forward in the NBA—especially when you additionally factor in his 7-3.25 wingspan. Just for some context, that’s a bigger wingspan than any of the three 7-footers at the combine. He’s got to be looking better and better for Charlotte at the No. 2 spot."
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/sto...thomas-robinson-height-anthony-davis-wingspan
"Big winner, I
One scout told me of Kansas forward Thomas Robinson, “If he were 6-10, he would challenge Anthony Davis as the top pick.”
Well, he is not 6-10, but he did measure in at 6-8.75, which is big enough to play power forward in the NBA—especially when you additionally factor in his 7-3.25 wingspan. Just for some context, that’s a bigger wingspan than any of the three 7-footers at the combine. He’s got to be looking better and better for Charlotte at the No. 2 spot."
You may want to note that 8 of those top 10 teams were in the Top 14 in Block Rate, and the two that weren't, Atlanta and New York, featured Josh Smith and Tyson Chandler inside.
And on that list the only team that DIDN'T use a shotblocker "in a major role" was Philly, which nonetheless had one in Brand, but that's not his calling card, or at least not main one. Cetlics= O'Neal, Stiesma, finally Garnett, Bulls = Noah, Gibson, Asik, Heat = Anthony, Knicks = Chandler, Josh Smith, Marc Gasol, Brendan Haywood, Ibaka/Perkins, Hibbert.
I have repeatedly challenged this. ALL of those teams have those players. Players who skillwise are often the worst on the team. That is unless shotblocking is a skill, and a pretty damn important one. And where is our equivalent on the worst defensive team in the league? The only player even in the ballpark is Whiteside, and if anything he just got buried further back on draft day.
And on that list the only team that DIDN'T use a shotblocker "in a major role" was Philly, which nonetheless had one in Brand, but that's not his calling card, or at least not main one. Cetlics= O'Neal, Stiesma, finally Garnett, Bulls = Noah, Gibson, Asik, Heat = Anthony, Knicks = Chandler, Josh Smith, Marc Gasol, Brendan Haywood, Ibaka/Perkins, Hibbert.
I have repeatedly challenged this. ALL of those teams have those players. Players who skillwise are often the worst on the team. That is unless shotblocking is a skill, and a pretty damn important one. And where is our equivalent on the worst defensive team in the league? The only player even in the ballpark is Whiteside, and if anything he just got buried further back on draft day.
Last edited:
A shot blocker is not about how many blocks he gets, its about the intimidation factor. Cousins and Robinson and JT will never intimidate you even if they each averaged 1-2bpg. Just look at our games against Thunder this year to just realise how intimidated our players were with Ibaka in there. For every shot a true shot blocker blocks there are many that he alters and that is where the value is. For every shot Ibaka blocks, he alters another 2 or 3 and when you add that up over the game, its a lot of possessions that he impacts.
The only player on our roster that has that intimidation factor is Whiteside and I hope and pray that he develops enough to be a legitimate 20-30mpg guy for us. What he has shown to date is that he is miles off but the skill he has, it's impossible to teach.
The only player on our roster that has that intimidation factor is Whiteside and I hope and pray that he develops enough to be a legitimate 20-30mpg guy for us. What he has shown to date is that he is miles off but the skill he has, it's impossible to teach.
Ok, great so they block shots by committee. Part of that is playing good team D and challenging more shots (hence getting your hand on more) as opposed to us giving players open shots and dunks. What I was challenging was the notion you needed a big shot blocker playing major minutes to be a good defensive team.
Most of those teams did not have a shot blocker in a major role. If you are going to list Garnett (1 block per game), Noah (1.4 blocks per game), Haywood (1 block per game) and Chandler (1.4 blocks per game) as major shot blockers, than we have a major shot blocker on our roster in Cousins (1.2 blocks per game). All of these players are very high IQ team defenders who block some shots.
Now if we are talking about role players (10-20mpg) with high blocks per minute, I agree with you. My point was never that shot blocking was unimportant. I said I would love to have a big shot blocker in our rotation, it's a great luxury to have for a coach. My point was that our team wasn't doomed to be a bad defensive team because Cousins and Robinson weren't big shot blockers. Playing good team D is more important and is the key for most of the top defensive teams.
EDIT: And again, if we could bring in D12 or Ibaka as a starter next to Cousins I would do cartwheels. Having a big shot blocker makes up for a lot of other defensive mistakes. Just saying that it's not a necessity and half the top defensive teams achieved their ranking with good team D, not by playing a major shot blocker 25-35 minutes a night.
Last edited:
No, all of those players are major shotblockers. Or in Garnett's case took over as such after injuries etc. made him the center -- he averaged 1.5 in the playoffs and was a factor. Not dominant, but a factor.
Meanwhile Haywood started 54 games for Dallas as their Chandler replacement at center, averagng 21min per. Anthony started 51 games for Miami averaged 21per. Noah was the 23rd best per minute shotblocker in the league. Bested on his team by Gibson (the 12th best) and Asik (the 8th best). And Chandler was merely the DPOY as a uniquely freaky non-shotblocking shotblocker. He provides the exact same intimidation with his 7'1" length, but just rarely chases the ball. All of those team, ALL of them had major per minute shotblockers on them. And not empty numbers guys.
Last edited:
Well, there are two elements here. One we disagree on and one we agree on.
We disagree that you have to have a big shot blocker playing major minutes in your rotation to be good defensive team. And I don't know how you can try to tell me that someone like Garnett who blocks 1 shot a game is a major shot blocker. If he is, than Demarcus Cousins at 1.2 blocks per game is too and this conversation is moot, since at this point almost every team in the league would have a big shot blocker. What guys like Garnett, Chandler and Noah do well is play great team D. They play great man D, rotate, cover pick and rolls well and by doing these things are in a position to contest a lot of shots. This is something that Demarcus does terribly at this point in his career.
The second point which we mostly agree on is that having a shot blocker on your bench is a great commodity. I mentioned that in all of my posts on this topic, so I am not sure if you didn't read all the way through or just forgot I had written it. My point was that you didn't need have to have a big shot blocker in a major role playing 25-35 minutes a night to be a top defensive team. Having one a coach can send in when the team D is struggling or a pesky guard is penetrating at will is fantastic. But you mention guys like Stiesma and Asik who played 14mpg and 15mpg respectively. Their teams were not mediocre defensive teams who cracked the top 10 because of their 15 minutes a night blocking shots. Their teams played great D for the other 33 minutes they weren't in the game as well. Give either one of these players 15mpg on the Kings last year and we are still one of the worst 4-5 defensive teams in the league.
One minor side note: I appreciate your stat about Garnett's D in the playoffs. It's great he can still turn it on and block 1.5 per game when he's going all out. But the Celtics were the #1 defensive team in the regular season when Garnett averaged 1 block per game, so even if he averaged 4 blocks per game in the playoffs, it's not relevant to the Celtics regular season performance.
We disagree that you have to have a big shot blocker playing major minutes in your rotation to be good defensive team. And I don't know how you can try to tell me that someone like Garnett who blocks 1 shot a game is a major shot blocker. If he is, than Demarcus Cousins at 1.2 blocks per game is too and this conversation is moot, since at this point almost every team in the league would have a big shot blocker. What guys like Garnett, Chandler and Noah do well is play great team D. They play great man D, rotate, cover pick and rolls well and by doing these things are in a position to contest a lot of shots. This is something that Demarcus does terribly at this point in his career.
The second point which we mostly agree on is that having a shot blocker on your bench is a great commodity. I mentioned that in all of my posts on this topic, so I am not sure if you didn't read all the way through or just forgot I had written it. My point was that you didn't need have to have a big shot blocker in a major role playing 25-35 minutes a night to be a top defensive team. Having one a coach can send in when the team D is struggling or a pesky guard is penetrating at will is fantastic. But you mention guys like Stiesma and Asik who played 14mpg and 15mpg respectively. Their teams were not mediocre defensive teams who cracked the top 10 because of their 15 minutes a night blocking shots. Their teams played great D for the other 33 minutes they weren't in the game as well. Give either one of these players 15mpg on the Kings last year and we are still one of the worst 4-5 defensive teams in the league.
One minor side note: I appreciate your stat about Garnett's D in the playoffs. It's great he can still turn it on and block 1.5 per game when he's going all out. But the Celtics were the #1 defensive team in the regular season when Garnett averaged 1 block per game, so even if he averaged 4 blocks per game in the playoffs, it's not relevant to the Celtics regular season performance.
I think what he means is that like Landry and Hickson, Robinson does not have a very well refined jump shot. I believe the stat I saw said he hit 33% of his shots between 15-20 feet. And ~20% in catch and shoot situations. With Evans driving so much and Cousins taking up a lot of space in the key, their ideal offensive complements would be able to hit the 17 footer and help spread the floor. It's part of the reason Landry struggled in his second year with us after Cousins came and Hickson's play was sub par (to put it gently).
I think Robinson may struggle with that some his rookie year. But immediately he has far better hands and is a better finisher at the rim than either Landry or Hickson. Beyond this season, everything I have read about Robinson shows he is a very determined player and an extremely hard worker. He's already improved his jumper and his form on his shot looks good. So in the next year or two, I do think he'll smooth it out and work well with the other two.
And that's just offensively. Defensively, he will be far better than either or them. And I don't think I even need to mention Landry and rebounding.
I think Robinson may struggle with that some his rookie year. But immediately he has far better hands and is a better finisher at the rim than either Landry or Hickson. Beyond this season, everything I have read about Robinson shows he is a very determined player and an extremely hard worker. He's already improved his jumper and his form on his shot looks good. So in the next year or two, I do think he'll smooth it out and work well with the other two.
And that's just offensively. Defensively, he will be far better than either or them. And I don't think I even need to mention Landry and rebounding.
Let's be real here, Landry is a better finisher at the rim. In the two T-Rob college games that I saw, if there was a defender his size near them, then he mostly threw up bricks. His defense wasn't good in those games either. Terrence Jones schooled him in one game, and in another, a random OSU player crossed him over pretty bad. He reacted slowly when other players made sudden movements. He gambled too much for steals. He didn't really play strong transition defense. But I think time and Clifford Ray can improve his defense.
Last edited:
You say let's be real here, and then go on to say you've watched him a whopping two times. He's a pretty good finisher, can finish with both hands, seems to protect the ball well on dumpoffs and putbacks, and will smash it any chance he gets. He does need to improve as all young players do and become more fluid, especially in his post game, but Carl-I'm-so-short-I-keep-getting-my-shot-blocked-Landry is not a better finisher. Sorry. You'll have to wait and see.
@Sptsjunkie, mentioned this yesterday but maybe no one saw it, but I think TRob has the tools to be a Haslem type defender down the road. Obviously probably not much of a shotblocker although he'll block a few, but a damn good and maybe one of the leagues best man/team PF defenders in the future. The lateral quickness, physicality, brute strength to his game reminds of Haslem, although TRob will be clearly better on the other end. But I have hope TRob could develop into a Haslem type defender. Has the nastiness to him as well. Thoughts?
@Sptsjunkie, mentioned this yesterday but maybe no one saw it, but I think TRob has the tools to be a Haslem type defender down the road. Obviously probably not much of a shotblocker although he'll block a few, but a damn good and maybe one of the leagues best man/team PF defenders in the future. The lateral quickness, physicality, brute strength to his game reminds of Haslem, although TRob will be clearly better on the other end. But I have hope TRob could develop into a Haslem type defender. Has the nastiness to him as well. Thoughts?
Agree with both parts. Landry as a veteran may have been a little shiftier in the post, but Robinson will get there and should be better finishing off feeds from other players from day 1. He is far stronger, more athletic and much more fluid than Landry.
And agree about his D. He has such great straight line and lateral speed, he can be a very good man and team defender. He'll never be a rim protector. But I think he has a chance to be a pretty special player. I see a lot of Paul Millsap in him, but I could see him being more of a vocal leader than Millsap is.
And agree about his D. He has such great straight line and lateral speed, he can be a very good man and team defender. He'll never be a rim protector. But I think he has a chance to be a pretty special player. I see a lot of Paul Millsap in him, but I could see him being more of a vocal leader than Millsap is.
DX showed that Drummond was the best post defender in college among those who had to do it at least 75 times. He seems like very mobile so PnR defense should not be a problem (and most likely isn't but I don't have stats) and he blocks shots so what part of defense he doesn't excel at?
Millsap will add very little to what Griffin is already doing and they will be manekens for layup drills (finding 3-4 high percentage shots would be a problem too) so no Millsap doesn't bring more to the Clippers.
Millsap will add very little to what Griffin is already doing and they will be manekens for layup drills (finding 3-4 high percentage shots would be a problem too) so no Millsap doesn't bring more to the Clippers.
That's why you don't judge a player based only on high school and college stats. By the stats, Will Barton scored more points, shoot a higher %, outrebounded, has more assists, and more steals than Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.
If Vegas has bets for bloom/bust of NBA draftees, the last person I'd bet money on is Drummond. Because he may be a bust or he may be the greatest defender who ever lived. Anyone who claim to know one way or another is just blowing hot air.
Holy cow, really? The Clips would never trade for a combo forward that result in them without a center! The Clips will never trade Jordan, just as the Thunder will never trade Perkins, the Knicks will never trade Chandler, the Nuggets will never trade McGee... unless they have a replacement shot-blocker in line.
Also, the Millsap that you so liked is... best used as a SF!
The Jazz turned around their season when they gave the no-offense, all hustle, athletic, and shot-blocking Derrick Favors significant minutes! With Favors at C, Jefferson at PF, and Millsap at SF.
Yes, Favor's 8 pts, 6.5 rebs, and 1 block in 21 minutes saved the Jazz's season.
If ever there's a case study of why you need a big, athletic swapper in the middle, this is it. You're looking at it. The shot-blocker is the difference between wins and losses.
You don't think the Clips knows about the importance of the shot-blocking center? You don't think they've already read the articles that I quoted above? Still think the Clips will trade Jordan for Millsap?
If Vegas has bets for bloom/bust of NBA draftees, the last person I'd bet money on is Drummond. Because he may be a bust or he may be the greatest defender who ever lived. Anyone who claim to know one way or another is just blowing hot air.
Holy cow, really? The Clips would never trade for a combo forward that result in them without a center! The Clips will never trade Jordan, just as the Thunder will never trade Perkins, the Knicks will never trade Chandler, the Nuggets will never trade McGee... unless they have a replacement shot-blocker in line.
Also, the Millsap that you so liked is... best used as a SF!
The Jazz turned around their season when they gave the no-offense, all hustle, athletic, and shot-blocking Derrick Favors significant minutes! With Favors at C, Jefferson at PF, and Millsap at SF.
Yes, Favor's 8 pts, 6.5 rebs, and 1 block in 21 minutes saved the Jazz's season.
If ever there's a case study of why you need a big, athletic swapper in the middle, this is it. You're looking at it. The shot-blocker is the difference between wins and losses.
You don't think the Clips knows about the importance of the shot-blocking center? You don't think they've already read the articles that I quoted above? Still think the Clips will trade Jordan for Millsap?
Last edited:
C- Cousins
PF- JT
SF- TRob
SG- Thornton
PG- Evans
Defensively it can work. Only Thornton is the problem, but he is not as big as a liability in defense than either IT or Jimmer.
Offensively, Evans can now drive to the hoop and throw the ball to the rim and Thornton can just keep on chucking from the outside. No problem. Cousins, JT, and T-rob get the offensive rebounds and put backs. Now, that would be the scenario if we still have Westphal as our coach.....lol
PF- JT
SF- TRob
SG- Thornton
PG- Evans
Defensively it can work. Only Thornton is the problem, but he is not as big as a liability in defense than either IT or Jimmer.
Offensively, Evans can now drive to the hoop and throw the ball to the rim and Thornton can just keep on chucking from the outside. No problem. Cousins, JT, and T-rob get the offensive rebounds and put backs. Now, that would be the scenario if we still have Westphal as our coach.....lol