Another hurdle on the way to MKG removed!!

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
Really? You wanted in on that deal? A couple of weeks ago, NO was rumored to be dangling the 10 pick as a way to get EITHER Ariza or Okafar's albatross contracts off their hands. The Wizards stroll in and take BOTH contracts, don't get any picks, and even threw in their own second round pick to sweeten the deal. Not to mention that Lewis' contract was eligible to be waived this summer. Wizards blew a huge chunk of their cap space on two average players. None of whom can shoot.

You talk about a balanced roster, but I see exactly one shooter in that lineup for the Wiz. This trade was definitely a desperate win-now attempt, and I see a team that will be decent defensively and mediocre offensively. It's a borderline playoff team in a bad year at best, and they now have very little room to maneuver in free agency.

NO wins this trade several times over, as they've just cleared out a crapton of cap space, giving them room to throw a big contract at Gordon and then go after another big name to form a big three with Anthony Davis coming aboard. That's a team that will have surpassed us, not the Wiz. We'll be catching up to the Wiz even if our lineup stays exactly the same as it is now. I'm glad we stayed away from that deal, if that was the asking price.


Thing you may have missed there is how quickly Washington has been able to turn around and clear out the young knucklehead culture they had going there, and surround Wall, and now this year's #1 with solid vets, and defensive minded vets too. They won't be the best defense in the league, but their entire frontcourt is composed of above average defenders now. They'll be hamstrung by a young and dumb Wall/Beal/Crawford trio of guards, but this is a team that now has a chance to play the game right while waiting for Wall or their #1 to blossom. Its not a perfect solution, but its a stable developmental environment now.
 
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#32
I don't see how Tyreke has pinned the Kings into a corner. And I hope we don't trade him.
Regardless, I am inclined to give him a year before I go into total bash mode. He's going into his 4th year now, and hopefully the SG spot will be his bread and butter. If GP/Coaches listened to the all mighty Gary then they would have put Reke at SG 3 years ago.

In regards to MKG, I don't think he will fall to us. I have a feeling that Washington might pick him up. Ariza is not a world beater. MKG will be a much better pro.. I think Barnes would be better for Washington though.. I am not sold on MKG here because we lose all of our 3pt shooting in the starting lineup if Evans is at SG and MKG at SF. So who knows if they dangle Evans out there for a SG who can shoot? Not sure what's going to happen.
 
#33
thing you may have missed there is how quickly Washington has been abel to turn around and clear out the young knucklehead culture thy had going there, and surround Wall, and now this year's #1 with solid vets, and defensive minded vets too. they won't be the best defense in the league, but their entire frontcourt is composed of above average defenders now. They'll be hamstrung by a young and dumb Wall/Beal/Crawford trio of guards, but this is a team that now has a chance to play the game right while waiting for Wall or their #1 to blossom. Its not a perfect solution, but its a stable developmental environment now.
This is a great point. Wall wasn't where he should be and the place was a mess. They should take Beal because he fits very well next to Wall.

The Wiz are going to give Wall and Beal a place to grow that isn't like the 1989 Clippers of 2010--- Kings.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#34
Really? You wanted in on that deal? A couple of weeks ago, NO was rumored to be dangling the 10 pick as a way to get EITHER Ariza or Okafar's albatross contracts off their hands. The Wizards stroll in and take BOTH contracts, don't get any picks, and even threw in their own second round pick to sweeten the deal. Not to mention that Lewis' contract was eligible to be waived this summer. Wizards blew a huge chunk of their cap space on two average players. None of whom can shoot.

You talk about a balanced roster, but I see exactly one shooter in that lineup for the Wiz. This trade was definitely a desperate win-now attempt, and I see a team that will be decent defensively and mediocre offensively. It's a borderline playoff team in a bad year at best, and they now have very little room to maneuver in free agency.

NO wins this trade several times over, as they've just cleared out a crapton of cap space, giving them room to throw a big contract at Gordon and then go after another big name to form a big three with Anthony Davis coming aboard. That's a team that will have surpassed us, not the Wiz. We'll be catching up to the Wiz even if our lineup stays exactly the same as it is now. I'm glad we stayed away from that deal, if that was the asking price.
Yeah, I wanted part of that. First, you have to be careful about rumors. Yes it was rumored NO was dangling the #10 for either Okafor or Ariza, but that doesn't mean it was the reality of the situation. Still, looks like NO just wanted to dump salary and clear cap space after next season and the only expiring we have going into next season is Cisco, so I'm not sure how we would have been able to get a deal done, and I'm not sure how much we could have absorbed.

As for us, what are our two biggest needs? Defensive minded SF and PF/C, who don't seek shots. Both Okafor and Ariza are damn good at exactly that. Not perfect fits, nor the first on my list, but clear upgrades and would fit in very well Cuz/Reke/IT. It's not just about talent, it's about fit and how best to round out a team. We don't need offensive studs commanding lots of shots. We need defensive role players, and a SF who can hit an open jumper. Okafor and Ariza(to a certain extent) do exactly that.

Okafor/Ariza are due roughly 20M next season. I don't see you kicking and screaming about us paying our glorious SF rotation consisting of Salmons/Cisco/Donte/Outlaw 19M last year. They didn't contribute much of anything. Okafor and Ariza would greatly strengthen our starting lineup with balance, much needed defense both on the perimeter and in the paint, and help our offensive efficiency as we'd have three clear offensive players surrounded by two clear defensive players. This deal would have plugged the two largest holes in our starting lineup immediately, for 1M more than our impotent SF bench quartet who were so poor collectively, we had to switch our PG over to SF.

As for Wash, they're now heading towards the playoffs. Maybe not this year, although they'll be much improved, but the year after, although with this move I wouldnt be surprised in the least if they make it this coming year. They now have arguably the top defensive SF, PF, C combination in the East. They added veterans to a young locker room. They have cleared out guys like Lewis and Young who simply get in Wall's way. They have a top pick who'll pair very well next to Wall offensively. It's a good fit for Wash, as it would be here. For Mem, it wouldn't make any sense. For Ind, it wouldn't make sense either. It's all about team needs and filling holes. Too many people look away from defense simply because there's not enough shooting. Beal is a damn good threat from deep and Ariza can hit open 3's at a decent %. Crawford is a growing offensive spark off the bench for them as well who's a deep threat.

As for salary cap, Wash with this move they don't need cap space this summer. They've already improved greatly, and shooting/backcourt youth might be their only weakness in their starting lineup. They;ve also got some young, talented prospects on their bench. But next summer, they'll owe a little less given their high number of five players with a team option and Ariza with a player option, but two years down the road they'll have ample cap space, as Ariza and Okafor come off the books. If the two year run worked out, bring them back for less. If not, spend on replacements. But in the mean time they'll be considerably more competitive, much better defensively, have experienced vets changing the culture which is great for Wall, their pick and other youngsters, should make the playoffs, become a more attractive franchise for FA's, greatly increase the chances of Wall staying, and really overall, have the organization heading in the right direction. You have to spend to win and you need to take chances to succeed. All we've done is waste money and stack pieces which don't fit, and without any resemblance of balance. Is that preferred?

I few years ago we were surrounded by a bunch of team starting a rebuild, as we were. Well, unless we make some considerable changes aside from just a draft pick, I'd wager these teams which were right at the bottom rebuilding with us, would have passed us, as some clearly already have.
Wash
Minn
NO
LAC
GS
Mem

Tor and Char haven't. All those other teams took chances, balanced their lineups and appear to be more invested in spending to win and get back to the playoffs. Not just spending to spend either, but intelligently. None of those team have close to 30M sitting on the bench contributing nothing as we do. For having his hands tied, Petrie has wasted an incredible amount of money of aged, crappy bench players. And if all we were to add is a draft pick, well two considering the 2nd rounder, if healthy I definitely think those six teams all finish with better records than us, some considerably better.
 
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#35
I'll keep an eye on Toronto and how they would go with this draft.
They have quite a lot of young guys in Bayless, Derozan, Davis, and Valanciunas, who'll be coming this season. A trade in my mind right now is to trade with the Raps IT/Thorton/Outlaw for Calderon/Davis and their 8th.

If MKG falls to us with 5th, with the 8th, we draft Lillard.
I know why Lillard would work with the Kings because he can play better Marcus Thornton's role without sacrificing Reke. Lillard is a scoring PG and that's what you pair with Evans who a point playing big guard. Thornton can only score and he got very little PG instincts. Lillard is something that Jimmer should have turned into to help this team but didn't.

Calderon is in his 30's now but will be a very good stabilizing factor in running a good offense for this young team. Davis should work with DMC too.

Toronto
PG - Bayless/IT
SG - Thornton
SF - Derozan
PF - Bargniani
C - Valanciunas

Kings
PG - Lillard/Calderon
SG - Reke
SF - MKG
PF - Davis
C - Cousins
 
#36
I'll keep an eye on Toronto and how they would go with this draft.
They have quite a lot of young guys in Bayless, Derozan, Davis, and Valanciunas, who'll be coming this season. A trade in my mind right now is to trade with the Raps IT/Thorton/Outlaw for Calderon/Davis and their 8th.

If MKG falls to us with 5th, with the 8th, we draft Lillard.
I know why Lillard would work with the Kings because he can play better Marcus Thornton's role without sacrificing Reke. Lillard is a scoring PG and that's what you pair with Evans who a point playing big guard. Thornton can only score and he got very little PG instincts. Lillard is something that Jimmer should have turned into to help this team but didn't.

Calderon is in his 30's now but will be a very good stabilizing factor in running a good offense for this young team. Davis should work with DMC too.

Toronto
PG - Bayless/IT
SG - Thornton
SF - Derozan
PF - Bargniani
C - Valanciunas

Kings
PG - Lillard/Calderon
SG - Reke
SF - MKG
PF - Davis
C - Cousins
What you pair Tyreke with is not a scoring PG. Its a PG that can score some but that is not his calling. A PG that has size and ability to guard SGs, set up others but also be effective off the ball. If that PG could shoot 3s it would be ideal.

Beno was a pretty good player to pair Reke with except he lacked in D and was not a great 3 point shooter. In prime Kirk Hinrich would be a fantastic PG to pair Reke with. From current reasonably young PGs in the league that would fit well with Tyreke, Lowry is probably the best one.

The last thing we need, if Tyreke is our SG going forward, is a PG with a score first mentality. What you are creating is the Ellis-Curry dynamic which was not successful.

In prime Kirk Hinrich would be god sent for Tyreke. Can play as a primary ball handler but also off the ball. Was a very good defender in his prime, shot the 3 ball at a reasonable clip and could be productive without impacting negatively on productivity of others.

I think people seriously under-rate just how much we missed Beno this season. It was a major mistake to trade him this time last year.
 
#37
Yah I didn't like trading Beno either. I think most of us here were on that boat. I agree with you in regards to the type of PG we need. I had been saying someone like Chalmers (someone a bit better all around and who has better PG skills who can defend like Chalmers). Lowry would probably fit although I don't like him as much as others do here.

For now I would like to see how IT does with Reke. Let's just hope they don't switch and have IT guarding SGs. That would be painful to watch. I still remember the first game of the year when IT was going against Kobe :) Was funny to watch.
 
#38
What you pair Tyreke with is not a scoring PG. Its a PG that can score some but that is not his calling. A PG that has size and ability to guard SGs, set up others but also be effective off the ball. If that PG could shoot 3s it would be ideal.

Beno was a pretty good player to pair Reke with except he lacked in D and was not a great 3 point shooter. In prime Kirk Hinrich would be a fantastic PG to pair Reke with. From current reasonably young PGs in the league that would fit well with Tyreke, Lowry is probably the best one.

The last thing we need, if Tyreke is our SG going forward, is a PG with a score first mentality. What you are creating is the Ellis-Curry dynamic which was not successful.

In prime Kirk Hinrich would be god sent for Tyreke. Can play as a primary ball handler but also off the ball. Was a very good defender in his prime, shot the 3 ball at a reasonable clip and could be productive without impacting negatively on productivity of others.

I think people seriously under-rate just how much we missed Beno this season. It was a major mistake to trade him this time last year.
Ellis-Curry is the worst comparison to a possible Lillard-Evans combo. Both are too small to defend any SG and Ellis rarely passes.
Lillard-Evans combo would be much closer to Jayrd Bayless paired with Evans.
That wouldn't be a bad pair especially is you have guy like Calderon at your disposal.
Calderon is a much better PG that Beno that's why my proposal includes this vet.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#39
And we have these tweets for this morning:

Joe Maloof: Over the past few weeks, we've had the opportunity to bring in some terrific prospects for our draft pick. Twitter

Joe Maloof: This year we have the 5th pick & we will definitely get a great player. Twitter

Aside from Drummond, we haven't brought in a single player who should be taken at 5. Don't know what the hell he's talking about.
Don't worry, rainmaker. Neither does Joe.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#44
Regardless, I am inclined to give him a year before I go into total bash mode. He's going into his 4th year now, and hopefully the SG spot will be his bread and butter. If GP/Coaches listened to the all mighty Gary then they would have put Reke at SG 3 years ago.

In regards to MKG, I don't think he will fall to us. I have a feeling that Washington might pick him up. Ariza is not a world beater. MKG will be a much better pro.. I think Barnes would be better for Washington though.. I am not sold on MKG here because we lose all of our 3pt shooting in the starting lineup if Evans is at SG and MKG at SF. So who knows if they dangle Evans out there for a SG who can shoot? Not sure what's going to happen.
You're absolutely right, Gary. You said this 3 years ago and I recall the torrential rain of criticism regarding your posts. I was with the Evans as pg group, but certainly no longer. Why don't you give Petrie a call and tell him what to do with this team?:p
 
#47
New obstacle just might have been cleared. Cleveland is telling people that Robinson destroyed Drummond in a head to head workout. I think that means that they want Charlotte to draft T. Robinson so that they can get MKG or Barnes.
 
#48
New obstacle just might have been cleared. Cleveland is telling people that Robinson destroyed Drummond in a head to head workout. I think that means that they want Charlotte to draft T. Robinson so that they can get MKG or Barnes.
My biggest fear currently, and what I slowly think is bound to happen - is Cleveland are going to take MKG over Barnes if they have the choise.

He's like best friends with Kyrie, was his highschool team-mate - according to reports he wowed them in his workout, he got high character, and is considered a safe bet at SF which is exactly what a team who already have a star player needs (Not to mention he's miles better then Barnes who I think is going to flop)

At first I really had hope we just need to get passed the Bobcats - right now I think there's just no way he drops passed the Cavs.
 
#49
Yep, The #1 and #3 are now set:

1. Anthony Davis <--- Set
2. T Rob or MKG?
3. Bradley Beal <--- Set
4. Barnes or MKG or T Rob?
5. ??

We'll see if Charlotte gives any signal leading up to the draft. Ernie Grunfeld said the Wizard is pretty sure who Charlotte is picking (hence the trade was made with full confidence that Beal will be available to him).

However, note that MKG did not worked out for the Cavs (not yet anyway). If he suddenly scheduled a workout for the Cavs, that's a tell.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#52
Yep, The #1 and #3 are now set:

1. Anthony Davis <--- Set
2. T Rob or MKG?
3. Bradley Beal <--- Set
4. Barnes or MKG or T Rob?
5. ??

We'll see if Charlotte gives any signal leading up to the draft. Ernie Grunfeld said the Wizard is pretty sure who Charlotte is picking (hence the trade was made with full confidence that Beal will be available to him).

However, note that MKG did not worked out for the Cavs (not yet anyway). If he suddenly scheduled a workout for the Cavs, that's a tell.
Why is Beal set at #3? I must have missed something. The tea leaves were pointing to the Bobs for Beal.
 
#55
Why is Beal set at #3? I must have missed something. The tea leaves were pointing to the Bobs for Beal.
Bobcats like Henderson, and he's there at the 2 guard.

They're taking either Barnes or Robinson imo - i'm leaning towards Barnes right now, but Robinson's workouts might change that - esp the rematch he'll have against Drummond in Charlotte, where I expect the same result IE absolutely destroying the overrated raw Drummond.
 
#57
And he "wowed" them according to reports.
Cavs need scorers....badly. Their top three scorers last year? Irving, Jamison, and Sessions. 2 out of those 3 are gone and the rest are 10PPG types. Kyrie needs a lot of help. I would guess their draft board is something like Beal, Barnes, MKG
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#59
Don't you all think that with the Wiz getting Ariza that MKG is off the board for him and they take Robinson?
I think that if the Bobcats pass on MKG, then there's a very good chance he'll slide to us. To me they're the wildcard. If they take Robinson, I think the Wiz will take Beal, and that leaves the Cav's with either MGK or Barnes. Since the Cav's need scoring, and the fact that Irving and Barnes are friends (dont' know how much that will influence the decision) there's a good chance they take Barnes.. One can only hope!
 
#60
I think that if the Bobcats pass on MKG, then there's a very good chance he'll slide to us. To me they're the wildcard. If they take Robinson, I think the Wiz will take Beal, and that leaves the Cav's with either MGK or Barnes. Since the Cav's need scoring, and the fact that Irving and Barnes are friends (dont' know how much that will influence the decision) there's a good chance they take Barnes.. One can only hope!
Imo the Cavs are the ones to worry about. Charlotte isn't gonna take him at #2 I don't think. I have a feeling he's the 5th rated player on their board.