Making a case for Jeffery Taylor:
- Thread starter bajaden
- Start date
Not sure if the comparison has been made, but Taylor reminds me of a rich man's Tony Allen. Which is exactly what you want on the wing for a team like us. Defensive specialist, won't demand shots but will shoot a good percentage. The more I think about Taylor, the more I think he's guaranteed to at least be a rotation player in the NBA. Would be fine trading down for him.
I don't know where you get those numbers. If we ignore the value of the rookie deals (because you get what you pay for there) the total value of the contracts we send out is $24.9M, the total amount of the contracts we bring back is $18.7M, so the savings is just a bit over $6M - for all intents and purposes that's the final year on Hayes' contract. We would save $400K or less in each of the first two years. Here I'm assuming that in the absence of this trade we would not pick up Cisco's option next year, but that with the trade we would not cut either Dalembert this year or Lowry next year (both have a decent chunk of unguaranteed money in those years, but your plan is to use them).
There are a lot of other reasons not to consider a trade like that. First off, Dalembert doesn't want to be here, and his relations clearly soured with the front office during the free agent period last year. That's enough to make us not want to do it. On top of that, Houston values Dalembert so much that they dropped him out of their starting lineup for 12 of the last 14 games of the season and started curtailing his minutes. And they've got Lowry, who is publicly making noise about getting traded. So they make a near-even swap of PGs, get rid of a defensive center they don't seem to want anymore for a defensive center they've had and loved for years, and all they have to do is take on an expiring contract that isn't even that big? That's a good deal for them. Oh, and we just threw in the #5 pick. What I'm saying is, take the picks out and you can think about it, but unless Lowry becomes our starter of the future, we lose. Put the picks in and it's ridiculous.
There are a lot of other reasons not to consider a trade like that. First off, Dalembert doesn't want to be here, and his relations clearly soured with the front office during the free agent period last year. That's enough to make us not want to do it. On top of that, Houston values Dalembert so much that they dropped him out of their starting lineup for 12 of the last 14 games of the season and started curtailing his minutes. And they've got Lowry, who is publicly making noise about getting traded. So they make a near-even swap of PGs, get rid of a defensive center they don't seem to want anymore for a defensive center they've had and loved for years, and all they have to do is take on an expiring contract that isn't even that big? That's a good deal for them. Oh, and we just threw in the #5 pick. What I'm saying is, take the picks out and you can think about it, but unless Lowry becomes our starter of the future, we lose. Put the picks in and it's ridiculous.
As I stated, no one has been more critical of Taylor's outside shooting over the last three years than me. His inconsistency drove me nuts. But you have to give credit where its due. He worked hard to improve his shot, and he accomplished that. As far as why he stayed in school, I'm not going to speculate on that. I can't read his or his family's mind. And it doesn't matter. I judge players on what I know they can do and can't do. Not on what I think they might not be able to do in some distant future. If I did that, I could just about discard every player in the draft.
Remember, I'm not saying that Taylor is a perfect player. But I'am saying he brings almost exactly what were looking for in a SF. I'll say it again. If you were to put Taylor and Barnes in a one on one game of basketball, I'll put all my money on Taylor. Thats today! Five years from now, I have no idea. But the outcome could easily be the same.
Remember, I'm not saying that Taylor is a perfect player. But I'am saying he brings almost exactly what were looking for in a SF. I'll say it again. If you were to put Taylor and Barnes in a one on one game of basketball, I'll put all my money on Taylor. Thats today! Five years from now, I have no idea. But the outcome could easily be the same.
I'm on board. Sounds great. Can we make it happen? 
I live in the Eastern Time Zone and am a lifelong University of Kentucky fan, so I see A LOT of SEC games and players. Taylor is a coaches dream. Great defender, does not have to have the ball and does whatever is asked of him.
I live in the Eastern Time Zone and am a lifelong University of Kentucky fan, so I see A LOT of SEC games and players. Taylor is a coaches dream. Great defender, does not have to have the ball and does whatever is asked of him.
I'd take that bet... Barnes is bigger and a better scorer imo. He's also no slouch defensively. It'd be touch and go as to who won for sure but I like Barnes now in that matchup... and in a couple of years from now it might be Barnes no contest. Taylor is 23 to Barnes's 20... 3 years for Barnes should bring a lot to his game, the guy is really young.
I'm expecting Taylor to shoot up the draft boards after the combine. (Right now I'm seeing him as high as 14th in some places)
His athleticism combined with this height, lateral quickness, phenominal defense, and consistent spot shooting will move him up.
Everyone is seeing how well Leonard is doing for the Spurs and coming out of College Taylor is the better perimeter defender and spot shooter. The only drawback is his age, however, you can see how much better he got each year, so he spent those years developing and getting better, which is what you want from a player.
I like Barnes a lot and think he could end up being a Luol Deng type player, which would be a solid piece on a championship team.
But if I had the ability to get Taylor plus goodies vs. Barnes alone, I'll take Taylor plus goodies.
His athleticism combined with this height, lateral quickness, phenominal defense, and consistent spot shooting will move him up.
Everyone is seeing how well Leonard is doing for the Spurs and coming out of College Taylor is the better perimeter defender and spot shooter. The only drawback is his age, however, you can see how much better he got each year, so he spent those years developing and getting better, which is what you want from a player.
I like Barnes a lot and think he could end up being a Luol Deng type player, which would be a solid piece on a championship team.
But if I had the ability to get Taylor plus goodies vs. Barnes alone, I'll take Taylor plus goodies.
Not arguing against Taylor as much as for Barnes I guess. Forget the "goodies" as far as I'm concerned... give me the best prospect plain and simple. Whether that's Barnes or Taylor or Drummond or Robinson or Sullinger or Beal or Marshall I dunno.
As for the Leonard comparison, he's so young... still only 20. Taylor at 23 just seems old to me. He did improve... but now he's gonna have to transition and up his game yet again. I just prefer the youth and the natural progression that comes with it. I'm sticking with a 20 year old Barnes over a 23 year old Taylor but wouldn't hate either pick.
As for the Leonard comparison, he's so young... still only 20. Taylor at 23 just seems old to me. He did improve... but now he's gonna have to transition and up his game yet again. I just prefer the youth and the natural progression that comes with it. I'm sticking with a 20 year old Barnes over a 23 year old Taylor but wouldn't hate either pick.
I like Ross, but if you think Ross is a better athlete than Taylor, your smoking something. Taylor may be the best athlete in the draft. Ross is actually a very similar player to Taylor. He's just not on the same level as a defender. Shooting wise, their about the same. Strength wise, its a no contest in Taylors favor. As to who will be the better player, thats anyone's guess. I happen to like Taylor more, and I watched both players a lot this past season. I could blame some of Washington's woes on Ross, but I won't.
As I said, I can't speak to 3 or 5 years from now, but right now, I'd bet a ton of money on Taylor. His defense would stiffle Barnes. Funny that you think Barnes a better scorer or shooter than Taylor. Last season Barnes shot 44.0% overall from the floor and 35.8% from beyond the arc. Taylor shot 49.3% overall, and 42.3% from beyond the arc. Taylor is a far more aggressive player than Barnes, and drives to the basket far more than Barnes, and as a result, gets to the line more often. The only advantage Barnes has on Taylor is age, and a little length.
I like Barnes, but right now he's limited in what he does well. He's a good athlete, and I think he can be a good defender at some point. But make no mistake, he's not in Taylor's class when it comes to defense. And thats why I give the edge to Taylor in a head to head.
I like Barnes, but right now he's limited in what he does well. He's a good athlete, and I think he can be a good defender at some point. But make no mistake, he's not in Taylor's class when it comes to defense. And thats why I give the edge to Taylor in a head to head.
I've never understood this age thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical of you. It seems to be the accepted thought now. So let me ask you a question. How long does the average player play on the same team? I mean its rare for a player to play his entire career on the same team. 4 years? 6 years? Lets say 8 years! That would make Taylor 31 years old if he stayed with the Kings that long. That would hardly put him on crutches. How long has Tim Duncan been in the league? He was a four year player in college and he just finished his 14th season. Larry Bird was also a four year player and he played 13 seasons.
Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Kevin McHale, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, etc. As a matter of fact, all the players used to be four year graduates, and almost all played 12 to 16 seasons. Would you have passed on any of those guys for a younger player?
The nice thing about drafting a four year college player is that your fairly sure what your getting. You have a better track record. And yet, that seems to be held against four year players for some reason. People say, he's 23 years old, as though he's nearing the need for a retirement home. I just don't get it!
Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Kevin McHale, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, etc. As a matter of fact, all the players used to be four year graduates, and almost all played 12 to 16 seasons. Would you have passed on any of those guys for a younger player?
The nice thing about drafting a four year college player is that your fairly sure what your getting. You have a better track record. And yet, that seems to be held against four year players for some reason. People say, he's 23 years old, as though he's nearing the need for a retirement home. I just don't get it!
5.4 fta per 40 for Taylor last year vs 7 fta per 40 for Barnes. Barnes actually got to the line more often.
I can't argue Barnes vs Taylor too much as I'd be excited over us picking either of them. The age is my issue with Taylor though... he's more advanced physically with more years of playing basketball at that level than is most of his competition. Maybe just me, I guess time will tell. Like I said, I'd be excited with either.
I can't argue Barnes vs Taylor too much as I'd be excited over us picking either of them. The age is my issue with Taylor though... he's more advanced physically with more years of playing basketball at that level than is most of his competition. Maybe just me, I guess time will tell. Like I said, I'd be excited with either.
For the current Kings roster, I'd take Barnes over Taylor, especially if the Kings want/try to keep Terrence Williams. I'll take Terrence Williams ball handling/playmaking over Taylor's ability to hit a 3. But I realize this thread is more about the draft and talent, and Taylor may make a team very happy in the mid-first.
My post above explains my issue with the age... it's about looking at how a player performed in his college career and why he was able to produce at that level. Comparing apples to apples might be fresh/soph seasons for the two players. How good of a sr season would Barnes have if we stayed in school? Obviously we won't know but that question has to be asked when comparing players of different ages.
I'm referring to how they'll play in the NBA. Barnes seldom drove to the basket, and almost all of his trips to the line came off backdoor plays, or he was fouled in the act of shooting on the pullup. Taylor on the other hand, goes to the basket a lot. This is where just looking at stats is decieving, and where watching them actually play gives you better judgement.
Again, I'm confused as to why his age is an issue. Yes, he' played more years, and he's gotten better every year. That should be a plus, not a negative. It like saying one player is better than the other because he's practiced more, and still picking the younger player in the hope that he ends up as good as the other player. Where exactly is the logic in that?
Again, I'm confused as to why his age is an issue. Yes, he' played more years, and he's gotten better every year. That should be a plus, not a negative. It like saying one player is better than the other because he's practiced more, and still picking the younger player in the hope that he ends up as good as the other player. Where exactly is the logic in that?
Explained the age issue in the post above... apples to apples comparison would be fresh/soph seasons for the two players. Which player has the higher ceiling vs which is the better player right now? Imo it's clear as day that Barnes has the higher ceiling. As far as who's better right now I'll give you Taylor... but not by a wide margin, definitely not a big enough margin to pass up on Barnes's superior upside imo.
If you have one player thats already acheived a certain level, and he's played 4 years, why is it logical to pick a younger player that hasn't yet acheived that level, in hope that he does. I realize that you betting he'll surpase that level. But at the same time, your betting that the first player won't get any better.
Look, I've nothing against Barnes. I saw him play over 20 times this past season. I think he'll be a good player in the NBA. But from what everone was saying about our needs, it appeared defense was a priority. Taylor can defend right now in the NBA. He's that good on defense. Not just on the ball defense, but off the ball defense as well. He makes it difficult for a player to get the ball. He's that good at mirroring a player. Barnes may or may not be a good defender. But he'll never on his best day be as good as Taylor on defense.
Now if defense isn't at the top of your list, then draft Barnes, and hope he develops into a good defender.
Look, I've nothing against Barnes. I saw him play over 20 times this past season. I think he'll be a good player in the NBA. But from what everone was saying about our needs, it appeared defense was a priority. Taylor can defend right now in the NBA. He's that good on defense. Not just on the ball defense, but off the ball defense as well. He makes it difficult for a player to get the ball. He's that good at mirroring a player. Barnes may or may not be a good defender. But he'll never on his best day be as good as Taylor on defense.
Now if defense isn't at the top of your list, then draft Barnes, and hope he develops into a good defender.
Taylor doesn't have handles to drive when he gets to the next level. He also doesn't have mid-range game. Taylor's stronger and has higher vertical than Barnes but he's not quicker or more agile than Barnes which matters much more for defensive impact. As NBA rookies they will be comparable defenders (but Taylor is somewhat better) with Taylor being more efficient and Barnes more versatile offensive player.
Defense isn't at the top of my list... I gather that's the consensus here is people want defense first. I want the best player. I look at teams still playing and see a bunch of guys who can shoot the basketball. Guys that can get to the rim or make a three. Guys that knock down 80% of their free throws. Also guys that play good d, block shots, and rebound the ball. Basically we can improve everywhere... I just want to get the best player possible. Not as worried about fit as some other people might be... get the best piece and then figure it out. We're not a Bruce Bowen away from a championship imo.
Imo Barnes is the best of both worlds in that he very well might be the bpa when we're picking and he also fits a need at small forward.
Imo Barnes is the best of both worlds in that he very well might be the bpa when we're picking and he also fits a need at small forward.
Well I have to disagree again. Sorry! Taylor does have a midrange game. One of his favorite shots is a midrange pullup along the baseline. Thats also where he likes to drive the basket from. If the drive isn't there, he pulls up, sometimes with a backwards dropstep and shoots the ball. He probably shot the ball more from there, then just about any other place. I already stated that he was a very good straightline dribbler, but don't ask him to create his own shot off the dribble. Barnes isn't even a good straight line dribbler. How Taylor's ability to handle translates to the next level is anyone's guess. But if you have that concern about Taylor, then you should have the same concern about Barnes, who has no ability to create off the dribble, and actually is worse coming off screens than Taylor.
But where I disagree the most, and I can guarantee just about every scout would agree with me, and thats Taylors defensive ability. He was an absolute shut down defender, and it didn't matter whether he was guarding the other teams PG or their SF. He has elite lateral quickness, and Barnes simply can't match him in that area. The only player in the same class with Taylor in that area is MKG.
But where I disagree the most, and I can guarantee just about every scout would agree with me, and thats Taylors defensive ability. He was an absolute shut down defender, and it didn't matter whether he was guarding the other teams PG or their SF. He has elite lateral quickness, and Barnes simply can't match him in that area. The only player in the same class with Taylor in that area is MKG.
This is my final word on this subject. First, this wasn't susposed to be about who is a better player, Barnes or Taylor. Or who will be better in the future. It was about using the number 5 pick to move down, aquire a veteran assest in the process, and still fill our need at the SF position with a very good player that does all the things we require out of that position. It didn't even have to be Taylor. I could make a case for Terrence Ross or Quincy Miller as well. Perhaps even Terrance Jones would still be there.
I have no doubt that Barnes will be at minimun, a good player. But at number 5, I would perfer to get more than just a good player. I'd like a star, or someone close to a star player. I'm not sure Barnes will be that kind of player. And not because of his lack of skills, or his work ethic. I just don't think he's that mentally aggessive. Now I could be wrong, but in watching him for two years, I didn't see it. I also didn't see any dramatic improvement in his game from his freshman to sophmore years. Yes, he did improve, but his improvements were small. I'm willing to cut him some slack based on his age. He like Gilchrist, was one of the youngest freshmen in college. And because he had flat dominated in highschool, maybe more was expected of him than was fair.
If we decide to draft him at 5, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. I'm going to root for him and hope he becomes what we all want him to be. And I'll be patient, just like I'am with any player. He's a good athlete, just not a freak or elite athlete, so there's no reason he can't play good defense in the NBA. I thought he was decent to good at North Carolina, depending on who he was guarding. He definitely had trouble with some of the quicker players he was sometimes asked to guard. Remember that in college, some of the SF's you face will be SG's in the NBA. Look at how Jae Crowder measured out at the Nets combine. 6'3.5" in his barefeet, and he played PF in college and is projected as a SF in the NBA. I do believe his stock is going to plummet.
Point is, Barnes will for the most part be guarding legitmate SF's in the NBA, so in time, I think he should be just fine. His team defense left a little to be desired, but hell, no one on the Kings plays team defense anyway, so why worry about it. Personally I'll be surprised if he's the best SF to come out of this class. Quincy Miller, if he's fully recovered from his knee injury, might be the best prospect in the class. But if we draft Barnes, I'm hoping I'm wrong about him.
I have no doubt that Barnes will be at minimun, a good player. But at number 5, I would perfer to get more than just a good player. I'd like a star, or someone close to a star player. I'm not sure Barnes will be that kind of player. And not because of his lack of skills, or his work ethic. I just don't think he's that mentally aggessive. Now I could be wrong, but in watching him for two years, I didn't see it. I also didn't see any dramatic improvement in his game from his freshman to sophmore years. Yes, he did improve, but his improvements were small. I'm willing to cut him some slack based on his age. He like Gilchrist, was one of the youngest freshmen in college. And because he had flat dominated in highschool, maybe more was expected of him than was fair.
If we decide to draft him at 5, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. I'm going to root for him and hope he becomes what we all want him to be. And I'll be patient, just like I'am with any player. He's a good athlete, just not a freak or elite athlete, so there's no reason he can't play good defense in the NBA. I thought he was decent to good at North Carolina, depending on who he was guarding. He definitely had trouble with some of the quicker players he was sometimes asked to guard. Remember that in college, some of the SF's you face will be SG's in the NBA. Look at how Jae Crowder measured out at the Nets combine. 6'3.5" in his barefeet, and he played PF in college and is projected as a SF in the NBA. I do believe his stock is going to plummet.
Point is, Barnes will for the most part be guarding legitmate SF's in the NBA, so in time, I think he should be just fine. His team defense left a little to be desired, but hell, no one on the Kings plays team defense anyway, so why worry about it. Personally I'll be surprised if he's the best SF to come out of this class. Quincy Miller, if he's fully recovered from his knee injury, might be the best prospect in the class. But if we draft Barnes, I'm hoping I'm wrong about him.
If you watched Vanderbilt a lot, which I did, you'd know that they actually used Taylor a good portion of the time to bring the ball up the court (especially when a team attempt full-court traps), which is something I never saw from Barnes.
Taylor's ball-handling is fine in straight-line drives, as well as shielding the ball with his body while bringing it up the court. He doesn't have the handles to get cute in traffic, but he isn't a poor ball handler.
Taylor's quickness and agility are simply better than Barnes, which is why Taylor is an elite perimeter defender.
Barnes is a good athlete and he should be a solid defender, but he is never going to be on the same level as Taylor. What Barnes does have going for him is that he is a bit taller and has a bit more length, so while Taylor should be able to shut down SGs/SFs with his lateral quickness and strength, Barnes could be better defending taller stretch 4s.
Barnes is going to be a solid pro. So if we select him 5th I'll be rooting for him to max out his potential. But if we have the chance to turn our 5th pick into Taylor plus other pieces to make the team better, I'll take Taylor.
Taylor's ball-handling is fine in straight-line drives, as well as shielding the ball with his body while bringing it up the court. He doesn't have the handles to get cute in traffic, but he isn't a poor ball handler.
Taylor's quickness and agility are simply better than Barnes, which is why Taylor is an elite perimeter defender.
Barnes is a good athlete and he should be a solid defender, but he is never going to be on the same level as Taylor. What Barnes does have going for him is that he is a bit taller and has a bit more length, so while Taylor should be able to shut down SGs/SFs with his lateral quickness and strength, Barnes could be better defending taller stretch 4s.
Barnes is going to be a solid pro. So if we select him 5th I'll be rooting for him to max out his potential. But if we have the chance to turn our 5th pick into Taylor plus other pieces to make the team better, I'll take Taylor.