City of Sacramento directs Ahaheim to stop negotiations with Kings.

Glenn

Hall of Famer
Sacramentans are small minded, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing buffoons.
You nailed it. But then I've only lived here 35 years.

Thanks. If the city didn't benefit from a team, they shouldn't be responsible for anything. The City wants somehthing for nothing. A study showed the city of Seattle earned $188 mil per year from having the Sonics. Why shouldn't a city contribute?
 
I would like to see that study. I would also like to know who sponsored that study.

There are scholarly studies like : http://kcal.ca/coates.pdf and :http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html and : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2257.1990.tb00513.x/abstract that suggest that sports stadiums and arenas actually don't bolster local economies, and in some instances, actually hinder it. There's even a book about it called "Field of Schemes."

I really think this is a topic that should be discussed, because obviously it is a hot topic and ripe for debate, and this information would help sway people one way or another on their opinion as to whether or not the public should finance sports stadiums/arenas.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
And a classless bunch of lowlifes they are. It's easy for them to come on here and play the "objective" card, they have no emotional investment in the team's location. I'd bet 10 to 1 most of them are Laker fans in disguise. If the mods have to exercise their control fetish, I wish they'd do it on these outside *****.
I beg your pardon?
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
I would like to see that study. I would also like to know who sponsored that study.

There are scholarly studies like : http://kcal.ca/coates.pdf and :http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html and : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2257.1990.tb00513.x/abstract that suggest that sports stadiums and arenas actually don't bolster local economies, and in some instances, actually hinder it. There's even a book about it called "Field of Schemes."

I really think this is a topic that should be discussed, because obviously it is a hot topic and ripe for debate, and this information would help sway people one way or another on their opinion as to whether or not the public should finance sports stadiums/arenas.
I don't have the study but it was quoted at the Anaheim City Council meeting. They also said OKC made $58 mil per year because the basketball team is there. I am sure you cared enough to watch. Do you honestly believe that a pro team does not contribute anything to the economy? How can you say that with a straight face. As a simple and I am sure easily researched figure, the Kings are the 25th largest employer in Sacto. That is a direct addition to the economy in taxes at the minimum.

You spouted your credentials. I've spent 25 years in school, 12 years post high school. I am not stupid nor do I exaggerate unless I am trying to predict the future of Cousins.

If you are correct, thank goodness the Kings are gone. They have been holding the city back. Now it will zoom forward now that the shackles that this hideous MULTI-BILLION dollar organization has visited upon the area.

And they give me more reason to leave this damn area. I don't know what I contribute to the economy but subtract two humans and two cats from this backwater community and factor that into any study you finnd that is directly relevant to Sacramento because as you have seen, in my wild *** claims, the bigger city benefits more than the smaller city. Odd, that. Almost seems predictible.

What is the sense of discussing it? This is not college but a place where at this moment we are discussing the fact the that this basketball team may leave. You can go to Anaheim.net and listen. I believe they quote the studies. In any case, all the city leaders, Chamber of Commerce and the like, thought it would be a great boon to the economy. The mayor was "stoked." Ah, the fools. Perhaps at this point you should tell them all how wrong they are.

It is amazing what an outsider can learn with this fancy new invention, the internet. What is the value of waking up after a Kings' win?? What is the value of the feeling if they win a post season game? Forbes lists this city as in the lower 5 or 10 cities in the country and no, I am not going to look it up. What is the value in living in a "good" city? I used to live in Minneapolis which at one point was rated #1. I grew up in a small town that also at one time was rated #1, Rochester, MN. I got sucked in by the mystique of California. The Kings will be gone and the city will slide further towards the bottom.

If you were a business that needed to relocate, would you go to the city with the pro team or the one without if all other factors were equal? There has to be a value in that?

You definitely have the mind set of the typical native as I suspect there are studies, a few which I quoted, that say something entirley different. You must have an agenda to slant your sources.

I'm done.
 
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I don't have the study but it was quoted at the Anaheim City Council meeting. They also said OKC made $58 mil per year because the basketbal team is there. I am sure you cared enough to watch. Do you honestly believe that a pro team does not contribute anything to the economy? How can you say that with a straight face. As a simple and I am sure easily researched figure, the Kings are the 25th largest employer in Sacto. That is a direct addition to the economy in taxes at the minimum.
I'm not trying to belittle you or question your accomplishments. I just think a healthy skepticism of those numbers is in order. Most of the studies I linked to cite a "substitution effect." Now, I'm no economists, so I'll try not to pretend to know more than I do, but the general idea is that people who spend their money on the Kings are likely to spend that money on something else. There are many posters here who said that they would go golfing more often or what have you. I'd venture to guess that you could replace Arco Arena with a shopping mall and it would have a similar effect. This is why I'm so hesitant to grant the NBA huge amounts of public money.

Basically, I question whether or not a professional team does anything to create wealth in a local economy. Pro sports teams may in fact help local economies, but I think their respective values have been overstated in an attempt to get cities to assume more risk than is necessary. Again, I'm no expert, and I am open to data that could help me form a more solid opinion.

I'm also skeptical of Cousins, by the way. Hopefully he can get his head on straight for the future of the Kings. That is, unless they move to Anaheim, in which case I won't feel the need to be so patient.
 
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I would like to see that study. I would also like to know who sponsored that study.

There are scholarly studies like : http://kcal.ca/coates.pdf and :http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html and : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2257.1990.tb00513.x/abstract that suggest that sports stadiums and arenas actually don't bolster local economies, and in some instances, actually hinder it. There's even a book about it called "Field of Schemes."

I really think this is a topic that should be discussed, because obviously it is a hot topic and ripe for debate, and this information would help sway people one way or another on their opinion as to whether or not the public should finance sports stadiums/arenas.
There are a ton of differing opinions on this topic, but I think I've seen it trend lately toward a consensus that local economies benefit tremendously from having a sports team in the region. Particularly NFL arenas, because the NFL has lately been rewarding cities who build new stadiums with the Super Bowl. Detroit saw a $274 million boost from the Super Bowl.

Regardless, I think that's only part of it. What it's really come down to in recent years, whether this is fair or not, is that if a community doesn't want to or can't build an arena for their local team, another community can/will. The debate isn't just "how much of an economic benefit does this bring us" anymore. It's also "how badly do we want to keep our team?" Some might consider it holding a city hostage for hundreds of millions of dollars, but there's no denying that aspect of it. And it's not just the NBA. Even in the NFL, if a city wants to keep their team, they are eventually going to have to put together a plan to have an arena built, and it's at least partially going to include public funds. In rare instances, like Bob Kraft with the new Patriots stadium, the team owner will finance the entire project. But most of the time, the city is going to have some skin in the game.

I think that's appropriate, because as most studies suggest, the local economy does benefit from having a pro sports franchise. Not only that, a new arena draws other events that the city can benefit from (depending on the deal they make with the franchise). Even an NBA team only uses the facility about 25% of the year at most, including playoffs. The city can hold conventions, concerts, derbies, etc., the rest of the year. The new Colts stadium was just awarded the Big Ten championship game, which is going to be huge for the region. So beyond the team having an economic impact, a new arena attracts business as well, which is why the city of Sacramento is considering an arena plan with or without an NBA team.
 
Yep, these are the ones that really cheese me off, those talking out of both sides of their mouths and lining up their deposit money for season tickets at the Anaheim Center.

There's one more group you didn't mention and those are those Maloof ball-washers that have a double standard vs. the city of Sacramento.
Maloofs can treat this as a business deal, Sacramento has to treat this as "family".
Maloofs can move at any time, Sacramento isn't a business partner in any of this.
Mafoofs can publicly flirt with Anaheim and cause attendance to dip lower than ever but that's totally within reason. Sacramento can't fight back because it might hurt the Maloofs feelings.

It's not so much a local vs. non-local issue as much as it is that there is an ever growing group that feels like throwing this in the face of Sacramentans and those that care that the team remains there. There are some who made it clear long ago that they will follow the team wherever that have stayed above the fray and those folks are totally cool. It's those that take some sadistic pleasure in the hurt that this is causing the rest of us that can fill in the blank.
And then there are those who lump everyone into the same category, regardless, because they just want someone to vent their frustrations on...
 
I'm not trying to belittle you or question your accomplishments. I just think a healthy skepticism of those numbers is in order. Most of the studies I linked to cite a "substitution effect." Now, I'm no economists, so I'll try not to pretend to know more than I do, but the general idea is that people who spend their money on the Kings are likely to spend that money on something else. There are many posters here who said that they would go golfing more often or what have you. I'd venture to guess that you could replace Arco Arena with a shopping mall and it would have a similar effect. This is why I'm so hesitant to grant the NBA huge amounts of public money.

Basically, I question whether or not a professional team does anything to create wealth in a local economy. Pro sports teams may in fact help local economies, but I think their respective values have been overstated in an attempt to get cities to assume more risk than is necessary. Again, I'm no expert, and I am open to data that could help me form a more solid opinion.

I'm also skeptical of Cousins, by the way. Hopefully he can get his head on straight for the future of the Kings. That is, unless they move to Anaheim, in which case I won't feel the need to be so patient.
Are you saying that having a professional team does not have a positive impact on things like city's revenue (via taxes alone), employment figures and even charities in the community?

MSE employees 1000 people in Sacramento. That in itself is stimulating economy. Not to mention the taxes that the team has to pay and the charity $$$ that directly impacts the region!

If having a professional team is not beneficial, why did florida come up with a $400 million arena in a bad economy and why are so many cities interested in having a professional sports team?

If the Kings leave sacramento, what are those 1000 odd people going to do for a living? What about those charities that no longer have the same contributions coming in? What about the decrease in regions revenue because there is no multi-billion dollar business to pay their tax each and every year?
 
There are a ton of differing opinions on this topic, but I think I've seen it trend lately toward a consensus that local economies benefit tremendously from having a sports team in the region.
See, I'm not so sure about this. I think the "message" has been controlled that it does, but I'm still very skeptical about the actual numbers. However, in your NFL example, you make a very valid point. The NFL rotates the superbowl, and the host cities see a spike from outside money coming into the town (unless of course you live in a cold-weather city). The NBA doesn't really have this (I guess they have the all-star game, though). But the NFL also has more profit sharing in the league (and player salaries are reigned in tighter), which gives each team more money to invest in their share of stadiums. Honestly, the whole arena issue probably wouldn't even be an issue of the NBA's business model was more like the NFL's.

You also bring up a good point about the deal that the NBA owners strike with their cities. I think this is why some people are so furious with the Maloof's, because they see them as uncompromising. And I agree completely about other cities being willing to strike better deals, and you can count me in the group of people who consider that holding a host city hostage.

But, I would like to see some of the studies. The phrases "most studies suggest" and "trend lately toward a consensus that local economies benefit tremendously from having a sports team in the region" imply a level of certainty when I really don't think it's as unanimous as people make it out to be.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
I'm not trying to belittle you or question your accomplishments. I just think a healthy skepticism of those numbers is in order. Most of the studies I linked to cite a "substitution effect." Now, I'm no economists, so I'll try not to pretend to know more than I do, but the general idea is that people who spend their money on the Kings are likely to spend that money on something else. There are many posters here who said that they would go golfing more often or what have you. I'd venture to guess that you could replace Arco Arena with a shopping mall and it would have a similar effect. This is why I'm so hesitant to grant the NBA huge amounts of public money.

Basically, I question whether or not a professional team does anything to create wealth in a local economy. Pro sports teams may in fact help local economies, but I think their respective values have been overstated in an attempt to get cities to assume more risk than is necessary. Again, I'm no expert, and I am open to data that could help me form a more solid opinion.

I'm also skeptical of Cousins, by the way. Hopefully he can get his head on straight for the future of the Kings. That is, unless they move to Anaheim, in which case I won't feel the need to be so patient.
The way the Anaheim bond is written, there is no risk to the city. The city does not back it if there is a default and it is not a loan. The bonds have been purchased by three entities owned by one man. If he defaults. He defaults to himself. Samueli. Did you watch that and learn?
 
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Are you saying that having a professional team does not have a positive impact on things like city's revenue (via taxes alone), employment figures and even charities in the community?

MSE employees 1000 people in Sacramento. That in itself is stimulating economy. Not to mention the taxes that the team has to pay and the charity $$$ that directly impacts the region!

If having a professional team is not beneficial, why did florida come up with a $400 million arena in a bad economy and why are so many cities interested in having a professional sports team?

If the Kings leave sacramento, what are those 1000 odd people going to do for a living? What about those charities that no longer have the same contributions coming in? What about the decrease in regions revenue because there is no multi-billion dollar business to pay their tax each and every year?
The point I'm trying to make (and I alluded to earlier) is that if you were to replace Arco Arena with a strip-mall or a car dealership, a big-league chew factory, or whatever, the number of people employed would probably be similar. My point is that the NBA is just another business. You can replace it with any business of similar size, and the economic issues would probably be the same. Of course, you never want to see a business leave town, but there is no reason to provide special rules for the NBA. The NBA (and many professional sports leagues really - I'm just picking on the NBA because I'm a Kings fan) has convinced the public that they have some special rules and therefore don't need to fund their own investment.

And as for your question about why did Florida okay a new deal, well, I don't really know why they did. Just because they did doesn't mean that they're the ones making the smart move.
 
The point I'm trying to make (and I alluded to earlier) is that if you were to replace Arco Arena with a strip-mall or a car dealership, a big-league chew factory, or whatever, the number of people employed would probably be similar. My point is that the NBA is just another business. You can replace it with any business of similar size, and the economic issues would probably be the same. Of course, you never want to see a business leave town, but there is no reason to provide special rules for the NBA. The NBA (and many professional sports leagues really - I'm just picking on the NBA because I'm a Kings fan) has convinced the public that they have some special rules and therefore don't need to fund their own investment.

And as for your question about why did Florida okay a new deal, well, I don't really know why they did. Just because they did doesn't mean that they're the ones making the smart move.
Except an NBA team brings in money from other sources than its own city. Teams traveling in spend at hotels resturants etc. Fans come from the bay area, chico, reno, tahoe. They wont becoming to the area for other businesses.
 
But, I would like to see some of the studies. The phrases "most studies suggest" and "trend lately toward a consensus that local economies benefit tremendously from having a sports team in the region" imply a level of certainty when I really don't think it's as unanimous as people make it out to be.
Here is one brief analysis, albeit a bit dated, on the economic impacts of stadiums on local economies. I hope I'm not de-railing here.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n2/coates.pdf

Anyway, one of the conclusions of this study was that "The evidence suggests that attracting a professional sports franchise to a city and building that franchise a
new stadium or arena will have no effect on the growth rate of real per capita income and may reduce the level of real per capita income in that city."

Now, I'm sure someone else will be able to find a contradictory study. The way I view the debate: when an arena is built, some local interests will benefit greatly while others will probably be hurt. It's a difficult issue to quantify.
 
The way the Anaheim bond is written, there is no risk to the city. The city does not back it if there is a default and it is not a loan. The bonds have been purchased by three entities owned by one man. If he defaults. He defaults to himself. Samueli. Did you watch that and learn?
I was referring to the numbers of the studies claiming a positive economic effect. I'm aware (sort of) of the way the bonds are written and the risk is assumed by Samueli. I was speaking both about how the city of Sacramento would assume risk if they were to build a new arena, and how team owners in general are able to shuffle the risk off to host cities when they need a new arena. The Anaheim deal is just a relatively small upgrade, so they were able to leverage that risk in the form of bonds, if I'm not mistaken.
 
See, I'm not so sure about this. I think the "message" has been controlled that it does, but I'm still very skeptical about the actual numbers. However, in your NFL example, you make a very valid point. The NFL rotates the superbowl, and the host cities see a spike from outside money coming into the town (unless of course you live in a cold-weather city). The NBA doesn't really have this (I guess they have the all-star game, though). But the NFL also has more profit sharing in the league (and player salaries are reigned in tighter), which gives each team more money to invest in their share of stadiums. Honestly, the whole arena issue probably wouldn't even be an issue of the NBA's business model was more like the NFL's.
The Super Bowl is like All Star Weekend, although the Super Bowl is probably waaaay more profitable for the host city. The NBA hasn't been building as many new arenas lately as the NFL has, so there hasn't been a clear pattern of awarding the festivities to a city that puts one up, but if Sacramento got a plan in place, it wouldn't surprise me if they got a kickback from Stern.

As for the NFL, they control the TV deals, which the NBA doesn't do. And they also provide a $150 million loan to each team involved in an arena project (New Meadowlands Stadium got two loans because both the Jets and Giants play there).

You also bring up a good point about the deal that the NBA owners strike with their cities. I think this is why some people are so furious with the Maloof's, because they see them as uncompromising. And I agree completely about other cities being willing to strike better deals, and you can count me in the group of people who consider that holding a host city hostage.
I can't comment on whether the Maloofs are uncompromising in this regard, but I doubt that they were unwilling to share the profits from non NBA events. I may be wrong, and if I am, then you're totally right. The city should benefit from non NBA events that are held in the arena if public funds are used on the project. No doubt about that.

It seems to me, however, that a lot of the "these rich people should build their own stadiums" naysayers (not really people on this board, but fans in every city, regardless of the sport) totally ignore the fact that the team probably uses the arena for events far less than the city does. This is particularly true in the NFL with only 8 home games (a maximum of 13 in a season, including preseason and playoffs). But it also holds true for NBA teams. Only 41 home games, and even with the playoffs, we can probably call it 70 games in a season max, plus a few team-related events. The city would be free to schedule other events practically 300 nights a year. And they should share in the profits, undoubtedly, if they contribute to the project. And even if they don't, they'll probably levy a surcharge on arena management for use of infrastructure (roads, police, etc.)

As to holding the city hostage, that may be true. But like I said, it's more and more starting to come down to whether the city values having that team or not, because whether you agree with it or not, that team can find a community willing to put together an arena deal for them. I hate to keep bringing up the NFL, but AEG is putting together a stadium project in SoCal without having a team. They have State Farm committed to a $700 million sponsorship deal, which is close to enough to get a stadium built. That goes up to $1 billion if they can get two teams. So if two teams want new arenas (for instance, San Diego and Minnesota), those cities don't have the luxury of calling the team's bluff. They already have a potential destination that the NFL has fully endorsed. It comes down to "if you can't/won't, someone else will." Sucks for a city that has been trying to build an arena for over a decade, but that's the black and white of it. That's why Orlando put together a $480 million project, based on what are now junk bonds, because they wanted to keep their team. May have ramifications down the line, but they keep their team. Pros and cons. I'm not arguing the merits, just saying that's how it is these days.

But, I would like to see some of the studies. The phrases "most studies suggest" and "trend lately toward a consensus that local economies benefit tremendously from having a sports team in the region" imply a level of certainty when I really don't think it's as unanimous as people make it out to be.
I'm acknowledging that there's a lot of back and forth. I don't mean to convey any kind of certainty, although my mind is clearly made up (and I doubt you really believe the city doesn't benefit from having a pro sports team). Either way, unanimous or not, I can't imagine how building a new arena isn't a boon for the local economy. Perhaps it takes a number of years to break even, depending on the amount of their contribution, but I just can't see how a city doesn't benefit from a new arena, if they take full advantage of it.
 
Yeah. Sam is one thing that the Maloof definitely aren't: a self-made billionaire and a smart businessman to boot.
Really smart, huh:

December 10, 2009, U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney dismissed the case against Broadcom Corp. co-founder Henry Samueli of a criminal charge of lying to investigators in a probe of improper accounting at the Irvine microchip designer, citing significant prosecutorial and police misconduct and attempts by the United States Government to coerce and intimidate Samueli and others into guilty pleas.
[6]

Both the Securities and Exchange Commission, as well as the Department of Justice have been investigating Broadcom Corporation for backdating of stock options. Although an internal Broadcom investigation cleared Samueli in mid-February 2007, Samueli hired his own attorney confirming that "the company and Samueli were responding to investigators separately".[7]

On May 15, 2008, Samueli resigned as Chairman of the Board and took of a leave of absence as Chief Technology Officer after being named in a civil complaint by the SEC.[8]

On June 23, 2008, Samueli pleaded guilty for lying to SEC for $2.2 billion of backdating. Under the plea bargain, Samueli agreed to a sentence of five years probation, a $250,000 criminal fine, and a $12 million payment to the US Treasury.[9][10] He was suspended indefinitely as the Anaheim Ducks' team owner by the National Hockey League. He was reinstated as Ducks' team owner by Gary Bettman on November 12, 2009.

During the technology boom in the 2000s, Samueli and Broadcom co-founder Henry T. Nicholas III awarded millions of stock options to attract and reward employees. Prosecutors alleged Samueli and Nicholas granted options to others, including some other top executives but not themselves, to avoid having to report $2.2 billion in compensation costs to shareholders.[2]

Prosecutors focused on the fact that Samueli denied under oath any role in making options grants to high-ranking executives. As part of his plea agreement, Samueli admitted the statement was false, and admitting to being part of the options-granting process while not acknowledging that the options awards were flawed.[2] However, an internal Broadcom probe laid the majority of blame on Henry Nicholas and William Ruehle. Nicholas has been distanced from the company since leaving in 2003 and later facing drug charges.[11]

On September 8, 2008, U.S. District Court Judge Cormac Carney (a fellow UCLA alumnus) rejected a plea deal that called for Samueli to receive probation, writing: "The court cannot accept a plea agreement that gives the impression that justice is for sale".[12] Then on December 9, 2009, Judge Carney dismissed the guilty plea, citing major prosecutorial misconduct.[13]


And:
http://ocbiz.ocregister.com/2008/08/13/samueli-sentencing-delayed-until-september/2538/
 
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The point I'm trying to make (and I alluded to earlier) is that if you were to replace Arco Arena with a strip-mall or a car dealership, a big-league chew factory, or whatever, the number of people employed would probably be similar. My point is that the NBA is just another business. You can replace it with any business of similar size, and the economic issues would probably be the same. Of course, you never want to see a business leave town, but there is no reason to provide special rules for the NBA. The NBA (and many professional sports leagues really - I'm just picking on the NBA because I'm a Kings fan) has convinced the public that they have some special rules and therefore don't need to fund their own investment.

And as for your question about why did Florida okay a new deal, well, I don't really know why they did. Just because they did doesn't mean that they're the ones making the smart move.
Thats all well and good and I do agree that the NBA business model needs a re-work.

However, having a professional sports team (in this case the Kings) positively impact the economy in a lot of way directly and indirectly. When people go to an NBA game at Arco chances are that a lot of them will got for a meal with their friends and family before hand or will spend some money on catering services. Those restaurans will not have anywhere near the number of people coming in as they do now and a lot of them will close their doors because they just would not be viable any more. Then there are teams flying in to play a game and paying for the hotels, food and even the planes would have some sort of agreement with the airports in these cities.

Having a new arena is not just about the team. I would think that an arena with the sole porifessional tenenat like the Kings would be open for other evens on 70-80% of the time. We have already seen NCAA turn its back on Sacramento because of the inadequate facilities. Then there are conferences, conventions, concert and all other events that an arena would attract to the region. How many of such events currently overlook Sacramento because their organisers deem Arco as inadequate.

States like Florida recognised this and got their acts together and came up with a plan. The impact of having such a facility is much more diverse than just the sports team (in our case the Kings).

If the Kings leave, Arco becomes a white elephant in the room. It can't host majority of the events because organisers of those events don't see it as a suitable venue. Business around Arco will struggle to survive and eventually close up because they can't count on 13K-17K people being in the area of which some will spend their money there. As a result, the Arco and the land becomes even more worthless because the businesses around it are closing down among other things.

This is the sort of thing that a lot of people ignore. Having a factory does nothing except employ the people. It doesn't bring any of the outside money that an arena and a sports team does. Thats whats being overlooked here and its the reason why Sacramento would take a massive financial hit if the Kings move. Not only financial in terms of revenue for the city but also the charities that are doing it tough as it is, let alone when a significant influx of money dries up.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
I sat next to people who had full season tickets and drove up from Lodi. I sat next to them for several years which in itself is fun but has no montary value. They wouldn't make that drive 41 days a year to visit the new Snapple factory.
 
I really don't care if people are from Sacramento or not. The point of my post was to state that the idea that it is the city's responsibility to fund an arena that will be used for a private business to make profits is insane. This is why I think people in Sacramento should have more say, because it is their money on the line. I have yet to see one rational reason why the city should be burdened with making a half billion dollar arena for a private business that could pick up and leave town whenever something better comes along.

I'm not dismissing your opinion as a basketball fan, I just think that when the arguments shifts over into another realm of debate, pure basketball knowledge begins to have less merit.

That's where my "if you don't understand the local politics" argument comes into play. The situation has become less about basketball and more about politics and legal matters. I seem to recall you explicitly stating that it is the city's responsibility to build an arena. That's a very bold statement, and it always seems to go unchallenged. I sincerely would like to see solid, factual reasons why a city should have to shoulder that cost. If you have reasons, or can point me to studies that demonstrate why it would be in the city's best interest to do so, I would love to hear it. I promise I won't shoot it down if the reasons stand on their own merit.
I don't want to sound rude, but I'm not wasting my time going over all this again. If you think I haven't talked Sac politics, or given very factual, thought out reasons for why I feel the way I do, you simply haven't read my posts.

I don't know how long you've been lurking here, but you seem very new, in which case, you haven't been around here long enough to have read my posts. Feel free to go back and read my posts. it's all there, in detail.

I could take your "basketball knowledge" comment as a slight, but I won't, because you're simply misinformed. You want to talk about all this now. We've been talking about it for months. I've talked plenty about the affect on the local economy, businesses, charities, tax revenue, and responsibility. If you don't take the time to read what I've already posted numerous times, and are going to play ignorant, I don't have much to say to you. You're jumping into a conversation which has been going on for a while now, and are accusing people, and me, of not knowing politics or the real issues. Go through my posts and get back to me.

Oh, and I'm sure you know the Kings pump roughly $100M into the local economy every year, right? That's part of where the city's responsibility comes in. Who will replace the $500M the city community will lose over the next 5 years? If you aren't even aware of that, you have a lot of reading to do.
 
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pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Here is one brief analysis, albeit a bit dated, on the economic impacts of stadiums on local economies. I hope I'm not de-railing here.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n2/coates.pdf

Anyway, one of the conclusions of this study was that "The evidence suggests that attracting a professional sports franchise to a city and building that franchise a
new stadium or arena will have no effect on the growth rate of real per capita income and may reduce the level of real per capita income in that city."

Now, I'm sure someone else will be able to find a contradictory study. The way I view the debate: when an arena is built, some local interests will benefit greatly while others will probably be hurt. It's a difficult issue to quantify.
The Cato Institute isn't exactly an unbiased source of information.
 
The city should benefit from non NBA events that are held in the arena if public funds are used on the project. No doubt about that.
That's really all I ask. I mean, if you're going to use public funds, then you are basically asking the city to partner with you, and they should see the rewards that a partner would receive, and iron out the details appropriately. And from my understanding, the Maloof's were less than compromising (rejecting plans, asking for complicated land swaps, publically doubting initiatives just before they went to ballot, wanting profits from non-NBA events, etc).


As to holding the city hostage, that may be true. But like I said, it's more and more starting to come down to whether the city values having that team or not, because whether you agree with it or not, that team can find a community willing to put together an arena deal for them.
I agree with you that this is the way it's done. It doesn't make it right, but I agree that it is what it is. I would like people to object more often, though, instead of prostituting their city out.

I don't mean to convey any kind of certainty, although my mind is clearly made up (and I doubt you really believe the city doesn't benefit from having a pro sports team). Either way, unanimous or not, I can't imagine how building a new arena isn't a boon for the local economy. Perhaps it takes a number of years to break even, depending on the amount of their contribution, but I just can't see how a city doesn't benefit from a new arena, if they take full advantage of it.
I see what your saying. I just think that if you brought in any major business, you would see similar results. If the Kings left tomorrow, and were replaced by Google Headquarters for example, I don't think there would be any drastic economic drop-off. I think that's really my main contention, is that the NBA is just like any other business, so I don't see the necessity of funding their operations.
 
I'm not trying to dismiss arguments from people outside of Sacramento (I haven't lived in Sac for quite some time, myself). Sorry if it came across that way.

However, it's just the repeated thinking of "the city should fund the arena" type of arguments that irk me. Those blanket statements are made often, and it's my suspicion that people making those comments never really sat down and thought about why they feel that the public should fund a building that will be used as a vehicle for private profits. Personally, I think the city should take a "what's in it for me" approach. It's not your typical re-pave roads/trash pick-up type of issue, where its something that needs to be done for the city to continue to function. So if the city doesn't get a return on the investment, then why should they be obligated to put forth the risk? I think the NBA is getting away with fleecing the national public one city at a time. And I don't really understand why people are encouraging this. If you can remove yourself from the emotions of being a fan and step back and observe the situation, I think people would be offended by what's going on.
We have taken the time to elaborate. You obviously haven't taked the time to read what we've typed. Given you can't even comprehend the other side of the arguement, maybe you should take along look in the mirror.

Observe the situation? You've shown an elementary level understanding of the situation.
 
That's really all I ask. I mean, if you're going to use public funds, then you are basically asking the city to partner with you, and they should see the rewards that a partner would receive, and iron out the details appropriately. And from my understanding, the Maloof's were less than compromising (rejecting plans, asking for complicated land swaps, publically doubting initiatives just before they went to ballot, wanting profits from non-NBA events, etc).




I agree with you that this is the way it's done. It doesn't make it right, but I agree that it is what it is. I would like people to object more often, though, instead of prostituting their city out.



I see what your saying. I just think that if you brought in any major business, you would see similar results. If the Kings left tomorrow, and were replaced by Google Headquarters for example, I don't think there would be any drastic economic drop-off. I think that's really my main contention, is that the NBA is just like any other business, so I don't see the necessity of funding their operations.
The bolded part is just such a wrong statement of things that have happened. I am so tired of going over the same things again and again. For example, the complicated land swap deal was the effort developed by the NBA consultant (Moag) sent in by Stern to try abnd figure out a deal that would not cost the taxpayers anything. It was not a Maloof plan. As to not supporting initiatives, the Maloofs and Stern backed out when the rail yard developer (Thomas) told them at the last minute that the city lied about having infrastructure money committed.

Also, if municipal bonds were used (like the funds for the original loan to the prior Kings owner) then the city only guarantees repayment in the event of a default. That is, repayment to the private investors who buy the bonds.City money becomes involved only if a city revenue stream is created to help pay for the bonds, such as rental car taxes, food and beverage taxes, ticket surtaxes, hotel taxes, etc. Also, in the rail yards deal, the city would have owned the land and arena downtown, same as Anaheim owns the Honda Center and would have entered into an agreement with MSE to operate the arena, just like Samueli's management company manages the Honda Center. That's a pretty typical arrangement in the NBA. City's usually hire some private entity to operate an arena. Kansas City doesn't manage their arena, which doesn't even have a pro sports team.

Actually it can be a reasonable arrangement. The city would always own the land and improvements, but is not responsible for operating costs, generally. Instead of risking operating losses, they get a guaranteed lease payment. Pretty much like any landlord that rents out commercial space to a business tenant. The landlord gets any increased equity in the property over time and they get the lease payments, but the landlord doesn't get a share of the business's profits, if any. Mainly, because the landlord doesn't want to share the losses.

By the way, considering their isn't a major corporation with its headquarters in Sacramento, I wouldn't look for Google or the equivalent coming in. And MSE is one of the biggest employers in the City of Sacramento. Top 5, as I recall. That is not going to be easy to replace. And it certainly will be hard to replace the international name recognition the Kings brought to Sacramento. That was priceless.
 
The Cato Institute isn't exactly an unbiased source of information.
I agree. I guess I was just showing one example of a study detailing economic impact of arenas. I don't agree with it. Here is a summary of a moderated discussion on the impact of professional sports on the economy. While not conclusive on most points, it describes some of the intagible benefits derived from a professional sports teams (e.g. civic pride). Additionally, it discusses that arenas sometimes serve as catalysts for urban developments. http://assets.wnec.edu/164/15_arti_Impact_o.pdf

The question is: do sports teams help urban development? The answer: it depends! :)
 
In a high density under developed area I think the answer will be yes.
Well, I think it probably is more complicated than that. I'm certainly no expert, but off the top of my head, there are several factors that must be considered: how often the arena is used; whether the arena is surrounded by large parking facilities (thereby cutting it off from the surrounding community), whether the sports team gets a percentage of revenue from business within a certain proximity, the accompanying infrastructure serving the area and nearby areas, etc.