Fire Paul Westphal
- Thread starter TheWileyVet
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So coach was doing everything right or everything wrong tonight? The players were perfect or not so perfect? Westphal seemed have right plays designed with some nice team D, right players were on the floor a lot (Beno, Reke, especially having hot hands nearly all game) going to a shorter rotation (as has been promised for awhile), pushing Kings out to a 23 pt lead over NOH. So which is it?
I see their job as getting the team ready for games and trying to get the best out of them. The fact that The Kings have played so many good first halves suggest to me that the coaching staff is doing a good job getting the team ready for games. If The Kings were playing 4 quarters of bad basketball every game, then I'd look to the coaches. But the fact that they're playing good for about half or two thirds of the games indicates a problem with the players to me, not the coaches. At some point you just have to accept that a team is just not that talented, or they're mentally weak as a group. The coach can't magically increase their talent level or change their mental make up.
I think bajaden posted PW's coaching history, which showed that his teams were always in a constant state of decline from the first season he started coaching them onwards. He inherited a great team with Barkley and company. Yes, they made it to the finals, as a veteran team might I add, and started declining.
What should tell you more is that PJ never won a ring without a few hall of famers on the roster. Kobe/Gasol Kobe/Shaq Jordan/Pippen would likely have won rings under any decent coach. PJ would have no rings though without the hall of famers. Take Doc Rivers, people in Boston were calling for his head. Then, they added two hall of famers to his roster and wallah, they win the title and all of a sudden ole Doc is a great coach.
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They appear to be playing good basketball in spurts, mainly because the opposing teams don't respect us anymore and know they're going to win without too much trouble (see Lowry eating popcorn before his free throws last night). As soon as the opposing team makes the necessary adjustments we melt down. That's not a well coached team.
Well that's the trouble, it's impossible to prove one way or the other if the kids are just dumb or lazy or if the teacher sucks. How one looks at it all depends on one's own perspective I suppose. I can recall having certain classes where nearly every kid was a goof off, screw up, underachiever, or just plain dumb, so yes, it's certainly possible.
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And yet they never did...
Obviously, a good coach can't win a championship without good players, but it also goes the other way around. The truth is that the talent on our team won't win a championship even with PJ steering the wheel, but it also wouldn't look like this. These players with a decent coach are worth at least 35-40 wins. Meanwhile we are looking at breaking the franchise's history for least games won. Do you really think that this team is less talented than the 17-win team from a couple of years ago? Westphal's record in sac is 23-75. That's an embarrassing record, and there is no indication that the team is about to turn it around. There are two possible conclusions - either every player on this team is a scrub whos talent is worthy of the Belgian league at most (which is a statistical improbability) or the coach is doing a bad job. It's your choice to believe the former, but in that case, that means you have lost all faith in this current roster and the only way to change things around is to get rid of every player and start the rebuild all over again. My choice is to believe that this roster has a lot more talent than its been showing, and I would certainly give a new coach a shot at attempting to realize their potential.
Obviously, a good coach can't win a championship without good players, but it also goes the other way around. The truth is that the talent on our team won't win a championship even with PJ steering the wheel, but it also wouldn't look like this. These players with a decent coach are worth at least 35-40 wins. Meanwhile we are looking at breaking the franchise's history for least games won. Do you really think that this team is less talented than the 17-win team from a couple of years ago? Westphal's record in sac is 23-75. That's an embarrassing record, and there is no indication that the team is about to turn it around. There are two possible conclusions - either every player on this team is a scrub whos talent is worthy of the Belgian league at most (which is a statistical improbability) or the coach is doing a bad job. It's your choice to believe the former, but in that case, that means you have lost all faith in this current roster and the only way to change things around is to get rid of every player and start the rebuild all over again. My choice is to believe that this roster has a lot more talent than its been showing, and I would certainly give a new coach a shot at attempting to realize their potential.
As a teacher, I strongly disagree with this. Unless you are teaching a class that's designed for kids with mental disabilities, it is statistically impossible to expect that every kid in the class will be dumb. Unmotivated? Maybe, if they grew up in a bad neighborhood that produces this type of attitude. But certainly not dumb. And in the case of our players, they didn't make it to the NBA because they lacked basketball talent. If my entire class does badly, it is certainly on me. I have been approached by students after a class I taught as a sub and told that they finally understand the material after months of struggling. Were they dumb before? Of course not, they just needed someone who can communicate the material to them in a way they can understand.
Again, I will repeat: one or two players sucking - players' fault. Entire roster sucking - coach's fault. There is no other reasonable explanation.
Again, I will repeat: one or two players sucking - players' fault. Entire roster sucking - coach's fault. There is no other reasonable explanation.
Again, it's not about one game. I can't say much about tonight because all I saw was the end of the second quarter and a bit of the third. But it's not about tonight. It's about how this team has beem looking in the past 12 months (16-75 record since January 2010). Just because they played good basketball for two or three quarters doesn't mean the coach is doing a good job. The clippers almost beat the lakers last week. Does that make Vinny Del Negro a genius? I don't know how you can look at what PW is doing with this team and say yea, he's doing a good job. The players are playing miles below their talent level, there is no offensive or defensive scheme of any kind that is identifiable. The chemistry on this team is the worst I've seen on any basketball team. What exactly is PW doing to make you think that things are going to get better on his watch?
That’s a moot point because when they were in their primes and were on stacked teams, PJ was the coach. We can never know if another coach would have won with those same teams.
Does it? What about Doc Rivers? I don’t recall anyone ever saying he was a good coach before he won a title with a loaded team.
Well that’s a given, but how much different do you think PJ would make? Do you think The Kings would have 2 more, 5 more, 8 more wins at this point if PJ was the coach this year?
You really think so? I’m assuming you’d agree that Adleman was a decent coach. You think Adelman could get 35-40 out of this team in its current state? I don’t.
I’d say about the same, honestly. The 17 win team had Martin, Salmons, Miller, Beno, Garcia, Thompson, Greene, Jackson, Hawes, Nocioni.. Replace Martin with Evans and Miller and Hawes with Cousins and Dalembert and you pretty much have this years team. Not a lot of difference between the two in terms of overall taent.
Every coach since Adelman has had a horrible record. And they all had one thing on common, they had weak teams just like Westphal does. Do you really think the last 4 coaches just suck THAT bad and that it has nothing to do with who they had on the roster?
Nor should there be because the ownership/management hasn’t added any experienced high caliber players that you’d need to turn around a franchise.
You really think those are the only two options? By that logic, every single bad team is bad because of the coach. The fact is, if you look at the Kings overall they have one of the least talented rosters in the entire league. They have “depth” but their depth is deceptive because it’s comprised of mediocre (by NBA standards) players. Honestly, no one on The Kings other than Evans and Cousins even has that high of a ceiling. And even Evans and Cousins have a long way to go. Evans and Cousins are the Kings two best players right now but at this point, they aren’t as good as most other teams two best players.
Nope, not at all. I have faith that with the right piece/pieces added to the core of Evans/Cousins and a few years of development, that this will be a good team. It’s going to take an all star caliber player being added and Evans/Cousins developing to all star level themselves to get there, though.
I did think that, but then I finally realized that I had been overestimating the overall talent level of this roster.
Does it? What about Doc Rivers? I don’t recall anyone ever saying he was a good coach before he won a title with a loaded team.
Well that’s a given, but how much different do you think PJ would make? Do you think The Kings would have 2 more, 5 more, 8 more wins at this point if PJ was the coach this year?
You really think so? I’m assuming you’d agree that Adleman was a decent coach. You think Adelman could get 35-40 out of this team in its current state? I don’t.
I’d say about the same, honestly. The 17 win team had Martin, Salmons, Miller, Beno, Garcia, Thompson, Greene, Jackson, Hawes, Nocioni.. Replace Martin with Evans and Miller and Hawes with Cousins and Dalembert and you pretty much have this years team. Not a lot of difference between the two in terms of overall taent.
Every coach since Adelman has had a horrible record. And they all had one thing on common, they had weak teams just like Westphal does. Do you really think the last 4 coaches just suck THAT bad and that it has nothing to do with who they had on the roster?
Nor should there be because the ownership/management hasn’t added any experienced high caliber players that you’d need to turn around a franchise.
You really think those are the only two options? By that logic, every single bad team is bad because of the coach. The fact is, if you look at the Kings overall they have one of the least talented rosters in the entire league. They have “depth” but their depth is deceptive because it’s comprised of mediocre (by NBA standards) players. Honestly, no one on The Kings other than Evans and Cousins even has that high of a ceiling. And even Evans and Cousins have a long way to go. Evans and Cousins are the Kings two best players right now but at this point, they aren’t as good as most other teams two best players.
Nope, not at all. I have faith that with the right piece/pieces added to the core of Evans/Cousins and a few years of development, that this will be a good team. It’s going to take an all star caliber player being added and Evans/Cousins developing to all star level themselves to get there, though.
I did think that, but then I finally realized that I had been overestimating the overall talent level of this roster.
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The problem isn’t that they don’t have talent. The problem is that they have less talent than most other teams. You need players with talent and experience, too. The problem with the kings right now is that the most experienced players aren't that talented and the most talented players aren't that experienced.
I really wish there was some way we could bring in Larry Brown, Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, or any coach of that caliber for the rest of the year just to see what happens. Either you’d be proven wrong or I would.
I really wish there was some way we could bring in Larry Brown, Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, or any coach of that caliber for the rest of the year just to see what happens. Either you’d be proven wrong or I would.
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I agree that we have less talent than MOST other teams, but I disagree that we have the absolute WORST talent in the league, as our record would indicate.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on most things becaue obviously we view things differently and there is no point in repeating the same things over and over. I'll just ask you one thing: can you imagine Phil Jackson benhing Artest for 5 games because he had two bad games? Could you imagine the Lakers randomly inserting Vujacic to the starting lineup, and playing Odom for 10 minutes in a game? Can you imagine a Celtics team in which Rondo walks the ball up the court every single time and dribbles down the clock, while Ray Allen is parked behind the arc, waiting for a pass that may or may not come with 2 seconds left on the clock? These things aren't about talent - it's about playing modern basketball and having an idea of what you are trying to achieve on the court. I watch a lot of elite teams and of course there is a difference in the level of talent and execution, but there is also a sense that they know exactly what they are doing, even when the execution fails. I rarely see that on our team, and it's not about talent or experience. It's about having a goal and working towards it, even if you are not good enough to execute it on a consistent basis.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on most things becaue obviously we view things differently and there is no point in repeating the same things over and over. I'll just ask you one thing: can you imagine Phil Jackson benhing Artest for 5 games because he had two bad games? Could you imagine the Lakers randomly inserting Vujacic to the starting lineup, and playing Odom for 10 minutes in a game? Can you imagine a Celtics team in which Rondo walks the ball up the court every single time and dribbles down the clock, while Ray Allen is parked behind the arc, waiting for a pass that may or may not come with 2 seconds left on the clock? These things aren't about talent - it's about playing modern basketball and having an idea of what you are trying to achieve on the court. I watch a lot of elite teams and of course there is a difference in the level of talent and execution, but there is also a sense that they know exactly what they are doing, even when the execution fails. I rarely see that on our team, and it's not about talent or experience. It's about having a goal and working towards it, even if you are not good enough to execute it on a consistent basis.
No I can't. But I also don't think that Westphal would do those things if he had The Lakers' roster. That example isn't really fair because Artest and Odom are better than any current Kings' player.
If I’m not mistaken, I think Rondo used to do that. He had to mature as a player before he got beyond that kind of thing. And in all honesty, I would give as much if not more credit for Rondo’s growth process to Boston’s big 3 as I would Doc Rivers.
If I’m not mistaken, I think Rondo used to do that. He had to mature as a player before he got beyond that kind of thing. And in all honesty, I would give as much if not more credit for Rondo’s growth process to Boston’s big 3 as I would Doc Rivers.
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What happened to the coach we had last year?
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?36015-Paul-Westphal-Whats-your-grade-so-far
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?36015-Paul-Westphal-Whats-your-grade-so-far
I loved PW his first few months with the Kings. That guy was awesome. He was teaching the guys exactly what they need to do. They all seemed to know what their role is and what they need to do on the court. Each player knew more-or-less how many minutes he is going to play and what his place is in the pyramid. Ironically, he was doing exactly the opposite of what he has been doing since January 2010. And it seemed to work really well. I am still sticking to my theory that the person who is currently coaching the Kings is the evil twin of the PW who was coaching this team in Oct-Dec 2009.
I can see your point. But there comes a time when the teacher has to take some, if not all of the blame. I've had good teachers that I learned a lot from, and I've had teachers that taught me nothing. I'm the same student. One teacher inspired me. Got me excited about what it was he was teaching. The other bored me to death. Both teachers were brilliant in their subjects. The only difference is that one knew how to make you interested in what he was teaching.
Last year I defended Westphal. The last thing I wanted was another coaching change. This isn't just about tonights game. Its about a pattern. Do you honestly think the same mistakes would be made if Sloan, or Pops was the coach. I didn't say it was easy. Its not. And not every coach is able to take young players and develop them. I have come to the conclusion that Westphal isn't one of those that can. Thats just my opinion. I've watched basketball for a long time, and in all my years, I can't remember seeing a team with so many starting lineups or crazy rotations. Substitutions for no apparent reason for a player thats playing well. Riding the back of a player thats not playing well.
Here's my bottom line. If I felt that there was a plan. A pattern. Something I could see to make me believe that there's some method to his madness, I would still be on board. But I don't see that. I see a man with his finger in the air trying to see which way the wind is blowing. I see a ship without a rudder thats sailing in whichever direction the current is taking it. There's nothing wrong with the ship. It simply has no direction.
Here's the decision were left with. Either the entire team sucks as a result of having no talent, or we have a coach, or coaching staff thats incapable of bringing this group of young talented players together and molding them into something that represents a future. I suspose there is one more choice. That we haven't given Westphal enough time. I willing to ride that horse for a while longer. But I have serious doubts. Mainly because all the doubts I had about Westphal when he was hired, and chose to ignore, are coming to frution. There's a difference between being a bad team, and not looking like a team at all.
Last year I defended Westphal. The last thing I wanted was another coaching change. This isn't just about tonights game. Its about a pattern. Do you honestly think the same mistakes would be made if Sloan, or Pops was the coach. I didn't say it was easy. Its not. And not every coach is able to take young players and develop them. I have come to the conclusion that Westphal isn't one of those that can. Thats just my opinion. I've watched basketball for a long time, and in all my years, I can't remember seeing a team with so many starting lineups or crazy rotations. Substitutions for no apparent reason for a player thats playing well. Riding the back of a player thats not playing well.
Here's my bottom line. If I felt that there was a plan. A pattern. Something I could see to make me believe that there's some method to his madness, I would still be on board. But I don't see that. I see a man with his finger in the air trying to see which way the wind is blowing. I see a ship without a rudder thats sailing in whichever direction the current is taking it. There's nothing wrong with the ship. It simply has no direction.
Here's the decision were left with. Either the entire team sucks as a result of having no talent, or we have a coach, or coaching staff thats incapable of bringing this group of young talented players together and molding them into something that represents a future. I suspose there is one more choice. That we haven't given Westphal enough time. I willing to ride that horse for a while longer. But I have serious doubts. Mainly because all the doubts I had about Westphal when he was hired, and chose to ignore, are coming to frution. There's a difference between being a bad team, and not looking like a team at all.
He was groomed by Cotton Fitzsimons who was the head coach and GM. Westphal inherited a very good team of veteran players and almost took them to the NBA championship. Two years later he was fired by the very man that groomed him. The team had declined under Westphal and got off to a bad start in his last year. All this would prove is that Westphal is a pretty good coach with a talented experienced team. Thats a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. As a college coach, he had one good year with a team he once again inherited. After that the team went down the dumper the next four years and he was fired. To my mind, this was the red flag that I chose to ignore. This was where he was working with young players. This is where he failed.
The problem is that The Kings have so many players on the roster who are at about about the same talent level that it makes it hard to pick who the best 7 are. And the fact that players like Casspi, Greene, and Thompson are so streaky/inconsistent only exacerbates the problem. That said, I do think he should play the young/core guys the most but I don't think it will make much difference in terms of wins and losses one way or the other.
I can't give you a simple answer to your question. But for the most part, its not just about tonights game. If it were, it would be a lot more simple. Its about building a foundation that you can fall back on when things start to get tough, or out of hand. I hate to use my marine corps military training as an example, but its all about repetition. Doing the same things over and over again until they become second nature and you don't have to think about them. You just do them. Thats how you build a team. Thats how you elliminate mistakes.
I'll grant you that it can boring and tedious. But thats how you teach anyone, anything in sports. If you practice a play enough times, you don't have to think about how to run the play. The first time anyone sits behind the wheel of a car, they're most likely very tense and grabbing the steering wheel with white knuckels. A couple of years later you get in and drive the car without thinking about it. Repetition, thats how you learn. Individually, its more simple. Add in four more players, and it becomes more complicated, and as a result, it requires more time. All of this falls on the coach. Its easier with experienced players. They've been there and done that. They've been driving the car for a few years now. Not so with young players. They require more time. More repetition. Good teachers, or good coaches have success. They have the ability to get the best out of their students. To think that the teacher, or the coach doesn't make a difference flies in the face of logic.
I'll grant you that it can boring and tedious. But thats how you teach anyone, anything in sports. If you practice a play enough times, you don't have to think about how to run the play. The first time anyone sits behind the wheel of a car, they're most likely very tense and grabbing the steering wheel with white knuckels. A couple of years later you get in and drive the car without thinking about it. Repetition, thats how you learn. Individually, its more simple. Add in four more players, and it becomes more complicated, and as a result, it requires more time. All of this falls on the coach. Its easier with experienced players. They've been there and done that. They've been driving the car for a few years now. Not so with young players. They require more time. More repetition. Good teachers, or good coaches have success. They have the ability to get the best out of their students. To think that the teacher, or the coach doesn't make a difference flies in the face of logic.
I don't think anyone has claimed that they can't make a difference. What I and others are saying, is that they can't perform miracles. The Coach can't shoot free throws for a team that's shooting 70%, can't stop players from making dumb turnovers in crunch time, can't stop defensive breakdowns, blown assignments, etc. At some point you have to put it on the players to execute the assignments they're supposed to.