Another Seattle perspective

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#61
Honestly you just glossed over my argument because you're hell bent on your hypothesis that you've been touting here for months. You once claimed that the value of the Palms was right around $100 million using the Stations bankruptcy now you are trying to say that its worth at least the $350 million is coming due. You're not going to let anything get in the way of your theory and that's fine. I just don't think the family is going to make a distress sale the team. They might move, in fact at this point I think it is a foregone conclusion that they will. But that's a completely different story. As is a beverage distributorship that had been around for generations and the current family likely had little interest in for anything other than a cash cow. They saw the pending tax increase, knew they needed money for the Palms, probably cashed out a few million to other family members so they could pursue their own interests and saved 5-10 million in future taxes in the process. If the Palms was the sole reason for the transaction then they'd already have a deal in the works for the Kings as well and as far as I know we haven't even heard so much as a peep that this team is on the market.
 
#62
I’m glossing over your arguments because they make no sense. You just said that: with every other business awash in red ink, only “had little interest (in the most profitable businesses) for anything other than a cash cow(?),” sold it primarily to avoid higher takes in 2011, and split a portion of the proceeds for independent projects? First, we know that’s not the case. FT reported the beer sale was a condition of the one year grace period on the Palms loan. Second, that’s bananas. You’re either arguing to support your own outcome or have no clue what you are talking about.

Fine, let’s assume the Palms is a almost worthless, will not rebound anytime soon, and has destroyed a significant portion of the Maloofs wealth and most of their cash. It’s not consistent with their conduct, but ok.

I thought I was a pessimist. You “optimists” have painted the picture that: (1) the Kings are probably moving due to the arena issue: but (2) if they can somehow stay, except for a few very rare seasons, their finical limitations will cause this team to be run like the A’s, with either low or near the NBA minimum. Yeesh.
 
#64
Honestly you just glossed over my argument because you're hell bent on your hypothesis that you've been touting here for months. You once claimed that the value of the Palms was right around $100 million using the Stations bankruptcy now you are trying to say that its worth at least the $350 million is coming due. You're not going to let anything get in the way of your theory and that's fine. I just don't think the family is going to make a distress sale the team. They might move, in fact at this point I think it is a foregone conclusion that they will. But that's a completely different story. As is a beverage distributorship that had been around for generations and the current family likely had little interest in for anything other than a cash cow. They saw the pending tax increase, knew they needed money for the Palms, probably cashed out a few million to other family members so they could pursue their own interests and saved 5-10 million in future taxes in the process. If the Palms was the sole reason for the transaction then they'd already have a deal in the works for the Kings as well and as far as I know we haven't even heard so much as a peep that this team is on the market.
You and I aren't going to hear that the Kings are for sale until right after they've been sold. Well, unless you're a billionaire, that is.

What I'm interested in knowing is, Does the City get its loan money back? The party that buys this team will pay the purchase price ($350M?) minus the debt load ($150M?). This disposition of those two loans is pretty huge here. Heck, maybe the new buyer will prefer to keep making payments instead of paying off the balance immediately. I don't think the loan to the City requires immediate repayment if the team leaves.

I think it's entirely possible that we've had a contingency sale; if something can be started in the railyard (and I don't mean shovels in the ground; I mean a solid plan) by March 1, the Maloofs and the Kings stay; if it can't, they'll leave. But at this point, I don't think the Maloofs can pay anything up-front on a new arena. So the City, which would float bonds to finance the arena, will be involved. They'd probably use revenue-anticipation bonds to do it, so there'd be no vote.

Remember, too, that the NBA has to approve owners. As Lacob is finding out, that can take longer than first anticipated. So this could happen well before March 1.
 
#66
The city selling bonds to raise revenue for an arena was an idea floated a few years back. The citizens responded with a resounding "no way." I think a lot of them didn't understand bond-financing, but the city backed off that idea quickly. I don't think it will go over any better now.

Seattle did not want to have anything to do with building a new arena. They now have a law on their books that prohibits city-financing of any kind or amount in arenas or stadiums. Why anyone thinks they will build one now, I have no idea. Can it be done in the suburbs outside og the city? That's a really big unknown.

Last I read, by the way, the Maloofs own 51% of the Kings.

Commercial loans, like the one or more on the Palms are usually fairly short term. That's the norm. Banks don't generally want to foreclose, as it just costs them even more money than the lost principal. If the Palms is a viable casino and likely to do better as the economy recovers, then I can see a lender restructuring the debt and moving forward with the Maloofs as primary owners. It makes sense for the Maloofs and their debtors, unless the lenders believes the Maloofs are incompetant as casino operators or have poor financial judgement.

As to the money owned to the city. The security for the loan is the land, the improvements and the value of the franchise. My guess is the land and improvements are worth the loan outstanding. If so, the land could be deeded over to the city as repayment on the loan. If the land/improvements doesn't value out to that much (and I believe it will) there's still a lien against the franchise value. The buyer would have to make the deal worth enough to the Maloofs after deducting the payoff of any loan balance.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#67
with every other business awash in red ink, only “[/SIZE][/FONT]had little interest (in the most profitable businesses) for anything other than a cash cow(?),” sold it primarily to avoid higher takes in 2011, and split a portion of the proceeds for independent projects? First, we know that’s not the case. FT reported the beer sale was a condition of the one year grace period on the Palms loan. Second, that’s bananas. You’re either arguing to support your own outcome or have no clue what you are talking about.
My understanding of that business is that it provided income for more Maloof family members than the primary stake holders in the casino or the Kings. So yes, I would expect that the proceeds would be split because some family members gave up what may be their primary income. And what I meant by "having little interest" - I am talking from personal experience with a family business that is presently up for sale in the 8-9 figure range. The 3 primary stake holders are siblings who have little interest in running their late father's business and would like to move on to their own pursuits as well as pass some of that on to their own children and grandchildren. When the sale was made public I was literally LMFAO about a bunch of random people on the internets posting their grossly inaccurate views of why the properties were for sale. So without getting any more specific than that, that is where I am coming from here.

As for the Palms being almost worthless, that was based off your numbers. Personally I think that Stations was intentionally devaluing the value of their share as they were involved in trying to re-take their company private after a poorly planned public offering. I've done business with Stations, they were the best at what they did (cornering the "locals" market in Vegas) and they really went away from that when they went public and began building destination casinos at exorbitant costs far from the strip. Bad move. I honestly have no clue what the Palms is worth, but I do think that a huge chunk of its value is tied to the Maloof interest in the Kings and the celebrity that provides, otherwise its just another aging off strip property. I don't see the Palms returning to what it was 5 years ago because the landscape is constantly changing there with the next big thing opening every year (instead of every 3-4 months like it did during the boom).

You and I aren't going to hear that the Kings are for sale until right after they've been sold. Well, unless you're a billionaire, that is.
I can't honestly think of a team that was sold in the modern sports era without plenty of public speculation that a transaction was imminent. Can you? Sure some come together quickly while others take years, but there's always whispers. A move could come suddenly but even then we're talking about a town that has largely been in denial about its arena shortcomings for over a decade.
 
#68
The city selling bonds to raise revenue for an arena was an idea floated a few years back. The citizens responded with a resounding "no way." I think a lot of them didn't understand bond-financing, but the city backed off that idea quickly. I don't think it will go over any better now.

Seattle did not want to have anything to do with building a new arena. They now have a law on their books that prohibits city-financing of any kind or amount in arenas or stadiums. Why anyone thinks they will build one now, I have no idea. Can it be done in the suburbs outside og the city? That's a really big unknown.

Last I read, by the way, the Maloofs own 51% of the Kings.

Commercial loans, like the one or more on the Palms are usually fairly short term. That's the norm. Banks don't generally want to foreclose, as it just costs them even more money than the lost principal. If the Palms is a viable casino and likely to do better as the economy recovers, then I can see a lender restructuring the debt and moving forward with the Maloofs as primary owners. It makes sense for the Maloofs and their debtors, unless the lenders believes the Maloofs are incompetant as casino operators or have poor financial judgement.

As to the money owned to the city. The security for the loan is the land, the improvements and the value of the franchise. My guess is the land and improvements are worth the loan outstanding. If so, the land could be deeded over to the city as repayment on the loan. If the land/improvements doesn't value out to that much (and I believe it will) there's still a lien against the franchise value. The buyer would have to make the deal worth enough to the Maloofs after deducting the payoff of any loan balance.
I-91 does not prohibit Seattle to build sports facilities. It requires borrowers to repay whatever they borrow at a rate equal to bonds. The fact that no one has taken Seattle up on that "offer" says volumes, I think.

http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/I91TEXT.html

"We're losing money!" Too bad, give us our bond payment.

"We're making money!" Great, give us our bond payment.

The original Kings loan to Jim Thomas was a revenue-anticipation bond; that's why the courts ruled no public vote was required.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#69
Objectively it just feels all too similar to how Seattle and Vancouve left their markets, all tightlipped and then BOOM! annoucement! The Kings have been sold and are relocating. My 2 cents[/URL]
Living in the PacNW I can say for certain that the Sonics move was telegraphed long in advance. Vancouver I also remember was considered a disaster and everyone knew they were getting out though it did happen suddenly.

The Maloofs have said before in rather personal tones that selling the Rockets was one of the greatest regrets they ever had and that now that they owned the Kings they weren't going to let an NBA franchise go easily. That to me is worth a lot more than the standard non-denial denial that you get out of families shopping their team.
 
#70
The Maloofs have said before in rather personal tones that selling the Rockets was one of the greatest regrets they ever had and that now that they owned the Kings they weren't going to let an NBA franchise go easily. That to me is worth a lot more than the standard non-denial denial that you get out of families shopping their team.
This.
 
N

nbaFan

Guest
#71
"Seattle did not want to have anything to do with building a new arena. They now have a law on their books that prohibits city-financing of any kind or amount in arenas or stadiums. Why anyone thinks they will build one now, I have no idea. Can it be done in the suburbs outside og the city? That's a really big unknown.

Last I read, by the way, the Maloofs own 51% of the Kings. "



When Ballmer offered 150 million to renovate the Key Arena in 2008 it by far met the criteria for I-91 in Seattle and in fact they supported it publicly. The return had to be like 3.5% for the city to contribute tax dollars. I-91 was passed when Howard Schultz wanted 220 million from the city to renovate the Key while contributing only 20 million of his own money. Ballmers contribution was 50% of the arena cost. I-91 isnt even legally enforcable according to many at the time and a little known fact is i-91 has expired, it was only for two years anyway when passed and only applied at the time for the city limits of Seattle with city tax dollars. This would not prohibit a new arena on county owned land within Seattle with county tax dollars. Fast forward to today and the arena rumors are for a privately built arena in Bellevue anyway.

The Maloofs own 43% controlling interest in the Kings.


"I can't honestly think of a team that was sold in the modern sports era without plenty of public speculation that a transaction was imminent. Can you? Sure some come together quickly while others take years, but there's always whispers. A move could come suddenly but even then we're talking about a town that has largely been in denial about its arena shortcomings for over a decade. "

Try Seattle Supersonics in July of 2006, not a soul was aware of impending sale, not one inkling of press regarding it with the exception of an SI article 5 months before while Shultz was in Olympia trying to get legislation for key Arena Tax dollars for expansion was it mentioned he would sell the team. But that was more of a percieved threat than anything for the state to cough up some cash.

"Living in the PacNW I can say for certain that the Sonics move was telegraphed long in advance. Vancouver I also remember was considered a disaster and everyone knew they were getting out though it did happen suddenly."

The Sonics move was telegraphed, AFTER THE SALE of July 06, if you recall they had 4 years left on the lease at the time,so since the sale was announced it was telegraphed, as everyone knew at that point they were gone. Thats a big difference in what you were implying. As for Vancouver, Micheal Heisley bought the team and assurred the city they were staying, again if you recall the prior owners had a deal to sell to a buyer whose intentions were to move the Grizzlies right away, but the NBA denied the sale much to the releif of Vancouverites. Only 6 months later they were sold to Heisley who said they were staying, and they did. For a year!!!!!!!!!!! and he moved. That was a shock as well, not telegraphed publicly. At the time the canadien dollar was so weak against the US dollar he couldnt compete. Today it would be different and Stern has even said that was his biggest mistake as commish. That market had pretty damn good attendance for a woeful team. I beleive their last year it dipped to around 13.5k,(i dont have the figures exactly,not as bad you would think though)


"The Maloofs have said before in rather personal tones that selling the Rockets was one of the greatest regrets they ever had and that now that they owned the Kings they weren't going to let an NBA franchise go easily. That to me is worth a lot more than the standard non-denial denial that you get out of families shopping their team. "

thats a quote from several years ago, at the height of their wealth. Things change man. Nows its time to buckle up and pay the piper. Sorry to be a downer but the writing is most definetly on the wall.
 
#72
I-91 does not prohibit Seattle to build sports facilities. It requires borrowers to repay whatever they borrow at a rate equal to bonds. The fact that no one has taken Seattle up on that "offer" says volumes, I think.

http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/I91TEXT.html

"We're losing money!" Too bad, give us our bond payment.

"We're making money!" Great, give us our bond payment.

The original Kings loan to Jim Thomas was a revenue-anticipation bond; that's why the courts ruled no public vote was required.


In California, at least, RAN's are used to pay for ongoing government operations in the current year. They are due by the end of that fiscal year. Most likely, it was a municipal revenue bond in which any revenue produced by the team was dedicated first to paying the bond investors and retiring the bond.

By the way, I read the test of initiative 91 and there is no language there that says it will ever expire. Did they change the language later? Interesting to read. They apparently were targeting sports venues. However, If governments never subsidized any for-profit businesses, our economy, as we know it, would collapse. In reality, we've never had a pure, "free" market.

Finally, the Maloofs have very recently (this year) talked about how wrenching it was for the family to sell the Rockets and they had to intention of selling the Kings.

That does not mean that other owners of the Kings might not sell their interest(s) to someone who wants to buy in and has a good chance of getting the team a good arena deal in another city.

BTW, nobody in Sacramento will be able to say they were blid-sided if the team moves. The issue of an arena has been on the table since before the Maloofs came on board.
 
S

Save Our Sonics

Guest
#73
Having lived through all this I'd like to offer up sympathy for the fans of Sacramento. If a situation emerges where my city is really looking to lure a team I don't expect that there is much that I can say that will make anybody feel any better. I do think that it is every city for themselves. We kept waiting for fans from other cities to be disgusted by what was going on. We kept waiting for the national media scene to come in and make a big deal out of what was happening. The truth is that the opposite happened. It was kind of ugly so everybody turned their back, strong efforts were made to regionalize the news so that it didn't make an impact on the league as a whole. It was really tough.

Sacramento is not a team I want. It has too long of a history, too loyal of fans, and it just doesn't feel right. New Orleans just stole their team from Charlotte and Memphis just stole theirs from Vancouver so it is easier to justify. That said I'll take a team. I really do think that the Kings are on the verge of relocation and I would feel like a tool if I allowed them to go to some other city without getting in line.

One thing I can tell you is that the people from Seattle will do their best to be classier and more straighforward than the ownership from Oklahoma(the people of Oklahoma City were actually quite gracious). Steve Ballmer is a really honorable guy. If someone from Seattle buys your team I don't think they are going to lie and say "We really want to try to keep it here...keep buying tickets" They'll tell you straight out that its over and done.

Anyway the article I wrote was not intended to rub anyones face it it. It was intended as a warning to spur people to action now. Do what you can, try to save your team. It may be too late already.

The end of the article got clipped...here is the rest:


If the Kings flagship radio station wants to gather support among fans then they need to do that NOW, not wait until the team is sold. If fans want to hold a “Save The Kings” rally, or to call their city council representatives then they should be doing so NOW.
If you own a business and want the Kings to stay it is essential that you call your city council members or the mayor’s office to offer support. If you frequent local businesses ask those business owners what they are doing and encourage them to be active. Small business support is the most critical element to getting this done. It will empower the elected officials to go out on a limb and find a way to save your team.
Now is the time for fans to visibly show their support and begin getting active in this process. They should consider themselves “on the clock” and realize that February hope can in fact lead to the game being over by July if they do not step up.
While it may seem early it is not. A solution has to be reached while the league and the franchise are still cooperative partners instead of adversarial negotiators. It has to happen before the franchise is being shopped nationally to the highest bidder because at that point the price will go up and the chances of success will be go down substantially.
If the Kings wind up on the open market you can bet that Seattle will show interest. Everybody will feel bad about it but that will not stop us. We will rationalize our actions by saying that "They are going to move anyway and better us than San Jose.” or something along those lines. People in every city but yours will look at the situation and say “Sacramento had their chance." just like they said about Seattle.
We have learned some hard lessons here and if our city makes a play for your team you can’t say we didn’t warn you. So get busy and support Mayor Kevin Johnson in efforts to build an arena. Show appreciation for the Maloofs by supporting them and send a message to the NBA that you value their product. Save your team. Do it now while your efforts still matter.

Brian Robinson was the co-founder of Save Our Sonics, a non-profit Grass Roots organization which grew to include more than 10,000 fans. As part of his effort to save the Sonics he met and worked regularly with local officials including the Mayor of Seattle, the Governor of Washington, and multiple members of state legislature. In addition he traveled to NY to meet with both NBA league officials and players union representatives. He led a rally of more than 3,000 people to support his NBA team just 2 days before they were allowed to relocate to Oklahoma City. The Seattle SuperSonics ceased to exist on July 2, 2008. For more information about this process go to www.sonicsgate.org