[Game] Preseason Game 1: Suns at Kings, 10/5/10 7pm PST

[Asaf]

It seems like all the post are saying the same thing - Omri forced shots. And this is not a very smart play with 20 seconds on the clock.

So what's up with the over-reaction?

Let me try to explain: You know how sometimes a certain person is so annoying to you that even if that person just says "hello" to you it pisses you off, because in your mind he is just that guy that annoys you no matter what he does? Well, I think that some people here are that way with Omri (just like other people were with Hawes, Noc, and JT last year, even when they actually had good games).

Yes, Omri had an AWFUL half season last year, and for a while didn't really look like he belonged in the NBA. Add to that some mental issues that caused him to act pretty selfishly, and you get quite a few fans who have given up on him and labeled him a selfish, not-talented-enough-to-ever-be-a-starter player. And while I agree that the second half of last season raised a lot of questions about Omri and his prospects for the future, I think it is MUCH too early to assume that these questions have been answered by a few games of summer league and one scrimmage. I think there are still many possibilities as to how Omri will develop as a player (same goes for Donte, Tyreke, JT, Cuz, and all the other young players on this team). However, I think that some people here think of the summer league Omri as the finished product, and in order to reassure themselves of that opinion, will immediately point out any forced or bad shot, complete with an "ugh" or "not this again", to show that there is a pattern here and they are correct in their assessment, while ignoring his good shots, assists or rebounds. I believe in praising and criticizing players based on their actualy performance, and not their image as portrayed by some fans with an agenda against them, and I think that if you go over my posts since I've joined you will see that I actually practice what I preach.

 

[Kingsguy881]

You do have to remember who you are playing here on the scoring and rebounding numbers, but I'll still take them, especially with us missing a bunch of our size for this one and kinda mysteriously screwing with some more of its head (Donte).

I'll also take this kind of debut for the Reke/Cuz 1/2 punch.

P.S. As an aside Omri had a nice supporting statline of 11pts (50% shooting) 7rebs 4ast. Not sure what the controversy is.

I LOVE IT!!! You see, I'm just getting in his head like Westphal would. I LOVE the other things on the court Omri does, and if he can prove that he is a willing passer and recognizes when to give it up he would be fantastic! And this is proof positive that maybe (and I'm using 'maybe' here quite loosely ) ol' Bajaden is right and we need to take a wait and see with Omri. He might just be the player we are looking for from that 3 spot.

But I'm still gonna wait and see. There are a few more preseason games and I didn't get to listen to this one.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I LOVE IT!!! You see, I'm just getting in his head like Westphal would. I LOVE the other things on the court Omri does, and if he can prove that he is a willing passer and recognizes when to give it up he would be fantastic! And this is proof positive that maybe (and I'm using 'maybe' here quite loosely ) ol' Bajaden is right and we need to take a wait and see with Omri. He might just be the player we are looking for from that 3 spot.

But I'm still gonna wait and see. There are a few more preseason games and I didn't get to listen to this one.

But we won!!! The bottom line is we won. And whe players have statlines that show they contributed to that win there is nothing to dislike about that. Ormi's line is great, I didn't get to see the game but that is a huge statline from your starting SF. Hell, the whole starting 5 had great statlines. I love the (George) Dub-ya any way you slice it, Nash or 1/4 Nash be damned.

 

[Mike0476]

Just wanted to add that when DMC sat down for the first time he was telling everyone that he was nervous out there but Sammy D off to the side told him to relax. DMC played great for his first night.

 

[mogli]

It seems like all the post are saying the same thing - Omri forced shots. And this is not a very smart play with 20 seconds on the clock.

So what's up with the over-reaction?

bottom line he finish with 11 point at 50% plus 4 ast and 7 reb and 1 stl in 25 min sound not bad at all and not selfish so lets just say he have a not bad game

 

[Bricklayer]

I take back what I said about there being no feed to pirate. Well...I guess I was right there truly was no feed to pirate, but what there were were about half a dozen cameras scattered around the arena, same as there was for the open practice. So it was being filmed from all angles apparently, just for nobody's consumption?

As an aside, they have obviously been going to considerable effort to take all those camera feeds and chop them up and show plays from multiple angles on these youtube productions, and I would like them to kindly chill out. These quick cuts are giving me a headache and the constant reversion to the baseline cam makes it hard to see what the hell is going on. There is a reason those are the cheapest seats in the house guys. Default to the sideview cam from up in the stands. Seeing a ball just appear from nowhere over a wall of Suns bodies and head toward the hoop is an editing fail.

 

[Prince_XY]

Yes, Omri had an AWFUL half season last year, and for a while didn't really look like he belonged in the NBA. Add to that some mental issues that caused him to act pretty selfishly, and you get quite a few fans who have given up on him and labeled him a selfish, not-talented-enough-to-ever-be-a-starter player. And while I agree that the second half of last season raised a lot of questions about Omri and his prospects for the future, I think it is MUCH too early to assume that these questions have been answered by a few games of summer league and one scrimmage. I think there are still many possibilities as to how Omri will develop as a player (same goes for Donte, Tyreke, JT, Cuz, and all the other young players on this team). However, I think that some people here think of the summer league Omri as the finished product, and in order to reassure themselves of that opinion, will immediately point out any forced or bad shot, complete with an "ugh" or "not this again", to show that there is a pattern here and they are correct in their assessment, while ignoring his good shots, assists or rebounds. I believe in praising and criticizing players based on their actualy performance, and not their image as portrayed by some fans with an agenda against them, and I think that if you go over my posts since I've joined you will see that I actually practice what I preach.

You are saying you believe in praising and criticizing players on their actual performance.

Tetsujin said "Listening. Quick shot off the dribble from the perimeter with twenty seconds on the clock is not a smart play.: And nickmcclure posted "Gary Gerould said Omri forced a few shots". Both posts based on actual performance and in a nice way because it does not have that "selfish" word/label.

So, what's wrong with those posts if what they are saying are based on actual performance?

Please don't over-react. All the players of Kings gets the same treatment as Casspi in this board. Hawes, JT, Greene, Garcia, Udrih, Cousins, etc. and even Evans had their infamous moments in this board. They all get criticized and get praises when it is due.

IMO, everything is normal --> unless, you think Casspi is entitled to be extra-special and immune from criticisms in this board?

Is that how you want people in this board to treat Casspi, someone extra-special and above the rest of the team?

If YES, why?

 

[Asaf]

I LOVE IT!!! You see, I'm just getting in his head like Westphal would. I LOVE the other things on the court Omri does, and if he can prove that he is a willing passer and recognizes when to give it up he would be fantastic! And this is proof positive that maybe (and I'm using 'maybe' here quite loosely ) ol' Bajaden is right and we need to take a wait and see with Omri. He might just be the player we are looking for from that 3 spot.

But I'm still gonna wait and see. There are a few more preseason games and I didn't get to listen to this one.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Let's wait and see before we pass such final judgment. As a general rule, I think it would be wise not to come to conclusions about any player before the end of his rookie contract. For better or for worse. I think it's wrong to annoint players as the greatest players who ever lived after only a year or two in the league, just as it's wrong to label other players as busts that early. I think these labels are disrespectful to the players, the team, and the fans. Despite what some people here might think, I am far from ready to declare Casspi as the future starter for the Kings at SF. I can't even say for sure that he will get a second contract. If he plays this season like he did at the end of last season, he will probably be heading back to Europe soon enough. But regardless of whether or not he's from your home country, I think it's silly to assume that what we've seen from him between January and April is what we will get from him for the rest of his career. You can say a lot about the guy, but you can't say that he doesn't have the motivation to work hard and become a better player. The main question about him will be whether or not he understands that getting better means more than just working hard at the gym, but also working on the mental aspects and on understanding how to work within the framework of a team. If he manages to understand that, then I have no doubt that not only will he be a starter, but he can become a legitimate star in this league. If not, he will probably have a hard time sticking around. I will be one of the first to call him out if he refuses to work on his team play, but I will not call him out for every mistake to use it as proof that he is destined to be a bust.

The nice thing is that the Kings can afford to allow all these young guys some time to develop together. They are not contending for the title this year and most probably not next year either. So, in a couple of years, just before it's time to contend, the Kings will have a pretty good idea of what they have in each of their pieces, and hopefully they will all live up to their potential. Imagine if PW and GP decided to take the approach of some of the posters here and throw Omri under the bus. I can't see what good could possibly come out of it for the Kings.

 

[Bricklayer]

Guys come on now. This is a pretty silly debate to be running on seven or eight pages with.

 

[Asaf]

You are saying you believe in praising and criticizing players on their actual performance.

Tetsujin said "Listening. Quick shot off the dribble from the perimeter with twenty seconds on the clock is not a smart play.: And nickmcclure posted "Gary Gerould said Omri forced a few shots". Both posts based on actual performance and in a nice way because it does not have that "selfish" word/label.

So, what's wrong with those posts if what they are saying are based on actual performance?

Please don't over-react. All the players of Kings gets the same treatment as Casspi in this board. Hawes, JT, Greene, Garcia, Udrih, Cousins, etc. and even Evans had their infamous moments in this board. They all get criticized and get praises when it is due.

IMO, everything is normal --> unless, you think Casspi is entitled to be extra-special and immune from criticisms in this board?

Is that how you want people in this board to treat Casspi, someone extra-special and above the rest of the team?

If YES, why?

I guess I need to repeat myself several times to be understood her, so here goes:

I do not have a problem with people criticizing Casspi. I have criticized him myself and will continue to do so if he deserves it.
I do not have a problem with people criticizing Casspi. I have criticized him myself and will continue to do so if he deserves it.
I do not have a problem with people criticizing Casspi. I have criticized him myself and will continue to do so if he deserves it.
I do not have a problem with people criticizing Casspi. I have criticized him myself and will continue to do so if he deserves it.

Next point:

I do have a problem when any player is criticized, or praised for that matter, in a systematic manner, just to prove a preconceived notion.
I do have a problem when any player is criticized, or praised for that matter, in a systematic manner, just to prove a preconceived notion.
I do have a problem when any player is criticized, or praised for that matter, in a systematic manner, just to prove a preconceived notion.
I do have a problem when any player is criticized, or praised for that matter, in a systematic manner, just to prove a preconceived notion.

And as for your other point. All players absolutely do NOT receive the same treatment on this board. I think Hawes, for example, received shamefully disrespectful treatment here, and so did Noc. Last year I actually thought that this board was a little too easy on Omri, when he deserved much harsher criticism. The only time I thought he was treated unfairly here was when some people got so overly obsessed with Tyreke's stats that they actually blamed Omri for intentionally "stealing" a rebound from Tyreke to sabotage his chances of a triple double. That was the only time last year that I felt that I need to stand up to him and call these posters out on the unfair criticism. For some reason, that attitude has returned in the last couple of days, perhaps sparked by some people who are rooting for Donte in the race for the SF starting job, so I'm calling those people out again.

And just to make it clear, I don't have a horse in the SF race. I like Donte and I agree with the point some people made that he might be a better fit with the other starters than Omri. I just think that you don't need to constantly look for reasons to knock Omri just because you want to make a point.

 

[Asaf]

Guys come on now. This is a pretty silly debate to be running on seven or eight pages with.

Ok, I'm done. There's no point in repeating myself anymore anyway...

 

[Aenadin]

its still the preseasons, and the shot selections are oing to be ill advised at some point, if casspi feels he's still has a lot more to prove he will do so he will play his heart out. and if reke will hold true to his word that he would be the vocal leader, if there is something wrong with casspi's playing style. he will speak up

overall im just happy that kings basketball is back and im looking forward to the kings proving a lot of people wrong....this will be fun and interesting

 

[sono]

How was DMC's defense against Robin Lopez, from anyone who watched the game?

 

[mac]

Ok, I'm done. There's no point in repeating myself anymore anyway...

Lol dude I get your whole point and I think your stand is perfectly fine and is shared by everyone. What I don't get is ... why are you mad when in this case Omri was criticized based on his apparent (that was backed up by Gary Gerould) poor shot selection? IMO you're taking it way too 'personally', believing that the criticism in this case was made "in a systematic manner, just to prove a preconceived notion". I totally get what you mean by how frustrating kneejerk reactions are and everything that people post about Omri being seemingly bad (we had this treatment with Hawes quite a bit last season, probably resulting in your saved a puppy thing). But could you clarify what makes you feel that this 'Omri in, shot in' comment was made with the intention of announcing to the world that Omri is a selfish player?

Why did you interpret that comment as such, and not just a fair criticism based on several shots that Omri took?

 

[mogli]

casspi finish with 11 point at 50% + 4 ast 7 reb and 1 stl in 25 min it's look like a good game to me if he force 1 shot or 2 it's ok
bottom line he play very well and look the best SF right now what will be will be
i dont think that he play selfish this game at all...

 

[rhythmless]

How was DMC's defense against Robin Lopez, from anyone who watched the game?

Robin Lopez had very good buckets on DMC. First time, he posted him up and just backed DMC for an easy lay in. Off picks, Lopez was able to curl around and get a shot/foul.

Cousins is reaching too much, not moving his feet. Seemed to be out of energy at times. I hope it's conditioning and not attitude.

Cousins will have a tough time adjusting to pick/roll defense. He looked like he had a couple indecision moments where he wasnt sure whether to switch back or shade the pg, which resulted him being in no man's land and not being effective.

As for Casspi, he actually passed on an open 20 footer from a Cousins inside move, which got swung around the perimeter until DMC got a 3 sec call. Cousins told him to take the shot, and PW actually went and I think told Casspi the same.

 

[Sac.Kings]

This thread is not about whether or not Omri is a ball hog...takes forced shots. It is about the Kings vs. Suns. If you want to quarrel with each other, I would appreciate it if you do it over PM's. I do not like trying to sift through an 8 page argument attempting to read about the game that happened and keep on stumbling over the same argument.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

The move Tyreke made at 1:40 was.....

 

[asakkings]

How much did Cousins go up against Lopez, he's a pretty good defender so it would be a good gauge of Cousins performance.

 

[bajaden]

By no means am I comparing the two athletically. I was rather comparing the way that fans are about both players.

Yeah, I realize that. I just couldn't resist expanding on Gerald. It still irks me that we let him get away. The big difference between Wallace at that time, and Greene now, is aggressiveness. One could argue that Wallace had too much of it, and at times it got him injured. But Donte needs some of that aggressiveness.

 

[bajaden]

I almost forgot. A great line from someone on another fourm. " Cousins eats rebounds, and craps outlet passes ". You gotta love it!! Thats the kind of diet that'll get you in shape.

 

[rhythmless]

How much did Cousins go up against Lopez, he's a pretty good defender so it would be a good gauge of Cousins performance.

Not a lot, but either Lopez stole some moves from better twin or Cousins is going to have some growing pains this year. Big man rookie mistakes like not shuffling feet, reaching, hands low, not staying big.

I heard that they are limiting Cousins' minutes to spurts still, which may be an indicator that he is not in full game shape.

In other news, JT looked very smooth. Had a couple good blocks, including one where he had his hands straight up, moved his feet against the drive, and then just got a little extra jump after the shot to get a block that we were able to recover. He was draining his jumpers and generally looked like he belonged.

 

[bibbinator]

I went to the game last night.

Given that the Suns are a mid-pack team in the West, and they played their starting line up only minimally (especially in the second half), the win should not be overplayed. Our first string beat their second string (or worse).

That said, the team looked strong. Reke and DMC were in the paint like we haven't seen the Kings in a long while. The days of running out the clock with passes followed with a weak 3 attempt at the buzzer: over.

The "Flexible Pieces" era is over. It's a brand new team. They're going to lose more than they win, but given their youth, potential and bench, it will be more like watching Learns than Losses.

 

[Kingster]

Casspi & Greene

Did anyone notice that Marcus Landry started at the 3?

Not Casspi.

Not Greene.

A pox on all your Greene Casspi houses!

Apparently, Westphal doesn't think that much of either Casspi or Greene right now.

It would be hilarious if Marcus would win the 3 position. Would put an end to the Greene/Casspi nonsense.

 

[mr. moustache]

Did anyone notice that Marcus Landry started at the 3?

Not Casspi.

Not Greene.

A pox on all your Greene Casspi houses!

Apparently, Westphal doesn't think that much of either Casspi or Greene right now.

It would be hilarious if Marcus would win the 3 position. Would put an end to the Greene/Casspi nonsense.

Something tells me Marcus starting had a lot more to do with whether or not he'll be working at Arby's in 6mo than any legitimate chance of starting for the Kings come regular season.

 

[Bricklayer]

Did anyone notice that Marcus Landry started at the 3?

Not Casspi.

Not Greene.

A pox on all your Greene Casspi houses!

Apparently, Westphal doesn't think that much of either Casspi or Greene right now.

It would be hilarious if Marcus would win the 3 position. Would put an end to the Greene/Casspi nonsense.

Uh no. It would be no more "hilarious" than the Desmond Masion nonsense last season. And this season we really can't afford that kind of crap. We have darkhorse playoff ambitions, and the first few weeks of the season are the softest our schedule gets. Play it right and serious we could build up major momentum. Fart around sending messages and whatnot again and stumble out of the gate and it may be an uphill struggle for the rest of the season.

 

[Asaf]

Did anyone notice that Marcus Landry started at the 3?

Not Casspi.

Not Greene.

A pox on all your Greene Casspi houses!

Apparently, Westphal doesn't think that much of either Casspi or Greene right now.

It would be hilarious if Marcus would win the 3 position. Would put an end to the Greene/Casspi nonsense.

It's preseason. PW knows that he will have Casspi and Greene during the season, but he still needs to see a lot of Landry to decide if he wants to keep him, so it's not that surprising that he lets him start. Also, it helps him avoid a situation that either Casspi or Greene think that they have already won the starting job, and gives him more time before he has to actually make a decision and stick with it. Personally, I think the only reason people are so obsessed with who starts is because there is an actual "games started" stat. If it didn't show up in the stat line players wouldn't care nearly as much whether they start or not, as long as they got decent minutes. In Europe, for example, that stat doesn't exist and I've rarely heard a player complain about not starting. They want their minutes, and they want to be in at the end of games, but starting is much less important.

 

[Kingsguy881]

It's preseason. PW knows that he will have Casspi and Greene during the season, but he still needs to see a lot of Landry to decide if he wants to keep him, so it's not that surprising that he lets him start. Also, it helps him avoid a situation that either Casspi or Greene think that they have already won the starting job, and gives him more time before he has to actually make a decision and stick with it. Personally, I think the only reason people are so obsessed with who starts is because there is an actual "games started" stat. If it didn't show up in the stat line players wouldn't care nearly as much whether they start or not, as long as they got decent minutes. In Europe, for example, that stat doesn't exist and I've rarely heard a player complain about not starting. They want their minutes, and they want to be in at the end of games, but starting is much less important.

The only reason I care is I wanna be right in the starting lineup prediction thread.

 

[Kingster]

Uh no. It would be no more "hilarious" than the Desmond Masion nonsense last season. And this season we really can't afford that kind of crap. We have darkhorse playoff ambitions, and the first few weeks of the season are the softest our schedule gets. Play it right and serious we could build up major momentum. Fart around sending messages and whatnot again and stumble out of the gate and it may be an uphill struggle for the rest of the season.

I wonder about the whole "send a message" thing. Really, does that sound credible to anyone? Here we have a situation in which Casspi had a terrible second half of last season, Greene didn't exactly cement his position in three land, and they both have known for months that they have tons of competition for the job. Yet, we believe that a message is being sent by starting Landry at the 3? If they haven't got the message yet, then they should both go work for the U.S. Post Office.

 

[Kingster]

It's preseason. PW knows that he will have Casspi and Greene during the season, but he still needs to see a lot of Landry to decide if he wants to keep him, so it's not that surprising that he lets him start. Also, it helps him avoid a situation that either Casspi or Greene think that they have already won the starting job, and gives him more time before he has to actually make a decision and stick with it. Personally, I think the only reason people are so obsessed with who starts is because there is an actual "games started" stat. If it didn't show up in the stat line players wouldn't care nearly as much whether they start or not, as long as they got decent minutes. In Europe, for example, that stat doesn't exist and I've rarely heard a player complain about not starting. They want their minutes, and they want to be in at the end of games, but starting is much less important.

Oh, come on. Westphal can play M. Landry for 40 minutes. That doesn't mean he has to START him. START him over Casspi and Greene. There's more to it than that, don't you think?