Kings to be involved in the Carmelo trade?
- Thread starter mr. moustache
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A lot of people call him overrated because there was an intense debate over whether he was better than Kobe back in the early 2000s. He had better numbers across the board, and was the #1 on his team, even though his teams never went anywhere. That was before the injuries started to mount up. I was undecided until I saw Kobe lock him down and outscore him in the second half with a bum shoulder, and I never looked back after that. He was still a pretty doggone good player in his own right, even if he wasn't as good as Kobe. Had the Rockets been able to cash in with him and Yao together, we might think of McGrady a little differently than we do now. That duo could have given one of those blue-collar Spurs teams a run for their money in 2005 or 2007. There was also the issue of Jeff van Gundy's coaching in those years, which I was never a fan of.
I've never seen a desire to win from him so I don't see how this is such an exaggeration. People are putting way too much into numbers and how many points he scored. Kevin Martin has put up near 50 point games. And now I'm not comparing the two, but when people start throwing out injury excuses and personnel excuses for him it gets pretty ridiculous. Carmelo has led his team out of the first round and into near finals appearances. He made the playoffs in his first year and that was only one year out of college. So that means he was about a year older than tmac was when he came in yet tmac never accomplished that or even did what Carmelo did in his first 6-7 years to what tmac did in like 11-12 years.
McGrady hardly cared about winning. His mood hardly changed throughout a game and he never got command of any team he was on.
McGrady hardly cared about winning. His mood hardly changed throughout a game and he never got command of any team he was on.
Aside from dragging a team of scrubs (bums is the word I wanted to use) into the playoffs... Look at the 2002-03 Orlando Magic roster. No one else was even good enough to start more than 54 games (and do you know who that was? A 33 year old Shawn Kemp, who was good for 7 points and 6 rebounds in 21 minutes a night. Grant Hill missed two thirds of the season, again. I am not a McGrady fanboy, and while I understand questioning his temperament, especially in comparison with some of the greats of the last decade, he was the only reason those teams even sniffed the postseason. So to say he hardly cared about winning and never got command of the team is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.
And my comment was simply that if you want to claim that "Tracy McGrady is THE most overrated basketball player of ALL TIME", it should be pointed out that you're obviously exaggerating. No one is nominating him for the Hall of Fame. Simply pointing out that, in his prime, he was a pretty damn good player, top five or ten in the NBA for a couple seasons there, and comparing him to Carmelo Anthony isn't some colossal insult to Anthony.
And my comment was simply that if you want to claim that "Tracy McGrady is THE most overrated basketball player of ALL TIME", it should be pointed out that you're obviously exaggerating. No one is nominating him for the Hall of Fame. Simply pointing out that, in his prime, he was a pretty damn good player, top five or ten in the NBA for a couple seasons there, and comparing him to Carmelo Anthony isn't some colossal insult to Anthony.
If I had to choose between McGrady in his prime, such as in 2002/2003 season, and Anthony in his prime, I'd have a hard time making that decision. They're similar players in that both are volume shooters and both have a tendecy to dominate the ball. The tipping point for me might be that McGrady in his prime was a much better defender than Anthony has ever been. He came close to averaging 2 steals a game a few times. And while, like Anthony he's not a great 3pt shooter, he's a much better 3pt shooter than Anthony who is pittiful from out there. McGrady is also a better passer than Anthony.
I'm not sure how you judge whether a player cares about winning or not. I mean if the guy is going to go out and give me 32 PPG along with 6.5 boards a game, 1.8 steals and 5.5 assists a game, I'm not sure I care whats going on in his mind. Sometimes I'm not quite sure what people want from a player.
I'm not sure how you judge whether a player cares about winning or not. I mean if the guy is going to go out and give me 32 PPG along with 6.5 boards a game, 1.8 steals and 5.5 assists a game, I'm not sure I care whats going on in his mind. Sometimes I'm not quite sure what people want from a player.
I can't see how anyone can have a hard time deciding between Anthony and McGrady during their respected primes. Anthony can shoot just as good as McGrady(albeit not as good in the 3 dept) but he can also muscle up and play down low, play on the block, get from the 3 pt line to the basket in one dribble(he's so fluid with his body and with the ball). To me, McGrady was basically just a volume shooter who'd drive to the basket when the opportunity presented itself but couldn't get down and dirty or play on the block effectively when he needed to.
Melo is nowhere near as creative with the ball, and doesn't create nearly as many opportunities for his teammates as TMac did. Melo's physicality is his saving grace, and his attraction to be sure, but he essentially just scores for himself, and if he's not scoring he's not helping. TMac was the more complete player, althoguh ironically in our positon we don't NEED a compelte player give Reke's presence already on the court.
The Magic went 42-40 in perhaps one of the weakest dismal conferences of all time. I'm certainly not impressed with Tmac getting the Magic in the playoffs. They were good enough to be the 7th/8th best team in an awful conference. Sorry, but someone HAD to make it in... might as well be the team with a Top 10 player (at that time.)
If Melo couldn't win much in the postseason with better teammates than we have in sac, then there's no point in getting him. Nene, Billups, Martin, Camby, Andre Miller, etc etc. He hasn't proven to get it done with the talent to do it. He is a great scorer, but I don't see him as a leader or a do-whatever-to-win guy.
First you say that Melo can shoot just as well as McGrady, but then admit he can't shoot the three as well, which is admiting he can't shoot as well. But that aside, McGrady is a much better all around player. He's a better defender and playmaker. He rebounds just as well as Melo. I will admit to not being a big fan of either player for different reasons in each case. But I watched McGrady take over games. Particularly at the end of games. I know memories are short, but there was a time when people debated who was the better player, Kobe or McGrady. There was never a debate in my mind, but injuries ended any debate that anyone might have had.
Here's my bottom line. There were times in McGrady's career that I thought he was the team. Take him off that team and they slide back into oblivion. I've never felt that way about Anthony. He was on a team with a lot of talent and it was going nowhere. They trade for Billups and wa la, suddenly the team makes a run for the championship. Billups made a bigger difference on that team than Anthony did. You would never say that about Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Shaq in his prime etc. I'm not trying to put down Anthony. He is what he is. I'm just trying to keep prespective. He is not LeBron!!!!
Here's my bottom line. There were times in McGrady's career that I thought he was the team. Take him off that team and they slide back into oblivion. I've never felt that way about Anthony. He was on a team with a lot of talent and it was going nowhere. They trade for Billups and wa la, suddenly the team makes a run for the championship. Billups made a bigger difference on that team than Anthony did. You would never say that about Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Shaq in his prime etc. I'm not trying to put down Anthony. He is what he is. I'm just trying to keep prespective. He is not LeBron!!!!
That was the state of the Eastern conference back then. Still is now. Doesn't mean that McGrady was at fault for how bad the conference was. And the point is simply that there was no one else worth mentioning on that team. He's the ONLY reason they were anywhere near the playoffs back then, so to claim -- as est.1999 did -- that he never got command of any team that he was on, is simply not true.
They made the WCF after Billups went there and became the leader of the team. I'm not knocking Melo, but he's not a #1 type player on a contender. I don't know that he would have to be if he were here, as it's pretty much Tyreke's team and everyone knows that. He'd certainly make us better, but I don't think we'd be better than the Blazers or the Zombie Sonics or the Mavs, and certainly not as good as the Lakers. And we'd be locked into that team for several seasons, no better than 4th or 5th in the West.
I'm not as firmly opposed to Carmelo as others are, and I've kind of softened from a couple of days ago on the issue, but I don't think it's the direction our team should go in. I still don't think there's enough touches with him, Tyreke and DMC on the floor, and I don't think he'd really be useful as primarily an off the ball shooter; he's not Ray Allen or JJ Redick, nor do you really want him to be. He's a ball dominant scorer, and not too much else. Huge weapon offensively, but I think the cost would be taking touches away from our young guys that we need to become stars in order for the team to go anywhere, Carmelo or not.
I'm not as firmly opposed to Carmelo as others are, and I've kind of softened from a couple of days ago on the issue, but I don't think it's the direction our team should go in. I still don't think there's enough touches with him, Tyreke and DMC on the floor, and I don't think he'd really be useful as primarily an off the ball shooter; he's not Ray Allen or JJ Redick, nor do you really want him to be. He's a ball dominant scorer, and not too much else. Huge weapon offensively, but I think the cost would be taking touches away from our young guys that we need to become stars in order for the team to go anywhere, Carmelo or not.
Carmelo may not be a franchise player but his scoring is elite. Unfortunately for him, his team needed to get past the Lakers inorder to get out of the West, and well that just wasn't going to happen because Denver had a solid team, but not a Championship team, so it's not all his fault, it goes hand in hand what you put around your main player(s) and how they adapt to the team concept & the way they want to play, just a shame Denver did not want to play too much defense except Chris "Birdman" Andersen
Well not sure that applies here, because its a lot like the Bosh discussion we had last year. We are no longer looking for our #1 guy to lead us to a title, we are looking for a great #2. So guys who are failures in that #1 role could still come in and be just what the doctor ordered...if they fit. And if they were willing and able to subordinate their ego. Suffice it to say that the biggest red flag/concern with Melo as a #2 type guy was the somewhat dysfunctional Melo/Iverson pairing -- only time he's ever had a teammate remotely at a level close to Reke's. Of course then again who did Iverson ever pair with and make it work?
That overlooks the key source of our improvement, which is the continued development of Tyreke and DeMarcus. Sure, we wouldn't be better than those teams right away, but we'd be in the conversation. And perhaps, in a year or two, we might be. Melo's only 26--it's not like we'd be mortgaging the future to win now. It'd be win now, with the potential to win more later. Or do you think that in three years Omri and Carl (assuming those are the key pieces dealt) will be better than Melo?
I'm saying that his contributions -- as a player who needs the ball to contribute -- would take away from Tyreke and DMC's growth and development, and since they are, as you say, the key source of our improvement, I don't think we should do anything that might be detrimental to them. Carmelo as a third wheel isn't that much better than Omri and Carl.
I understand all the qualms about Carmelo, but I really cannot see how anyone can be against getting him even if we have to lose Donte/Omri and Dalembert/Landry in the process. He is a top 10-5 player in the league and would give us the most deadly trio of players...well, in the western conference. These opportunities do not come around often.
Pull the trigger Geoff. If it ends up blowing up on us to the tune of a choking $21m per year, alright. Its worth the risk to become a team that could challenge the Lakers/Heat in the almost immediate future.
Pull the trigger Geoff. If it ends up blowing up on us to the tune of a choking $21m per year, alright. Its worth the risk to become a team that could challenge the Lakers/Heat in the almost immediate future.
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That was the ONLY time in his CAREER he wasn't bounced in the first round. And who did they beat on their way there? They beat a totally outclassed Hornet team with an injured Paul. And they beat a Maverick team who has it's own set of issues. He has matched up against similarly talented teams, but hasn't prevailed unless his team can completely outclass the opposition. He's not the type of player who can play against an equal team and take his team over the top.
Not true, because they made the semi-finals multiple times. Melo has only gone past the first round once in 7 trips, and only did so when his team completely outclassed the opposition.
LMAO if he was the type of franchise player who could elevate his team and get them over the top against a similarly talented team, then he would have gotten past the first round in earlier trips to the playoffs. This isn't McGrady who played on absolutely horrible Magic teams. This is a guy who had the talent to compete at the top of the conference, and he couldn't get his team a playoff series win.
And again, please address my point:
Hypothetically, let's say he is all you think he can be. That still means he's coming to a team that is WORSE THAN HIS DENVER TEAMS. So why do you think he can make the kings a successful playoff team, when he will have less talent around him?
Not true, because they made the semi-finals multiple times. Melo has only gone past the first round once in 7 trips, and only did so when his team completely outclassed the opposition.
LMAO if he was the type of franchise player who could elevate his team and get them over the top against a similarly talented team, then he would have gotten past the first round in earlier trips to the playoffs. This isn't McGrady who played on absolutely horrible Magic teams. This is a guy who had the talent to compete at the top of the conference, and he couldn't get his team a playoff series win.
And again, please address my point:
Hypothetically, let's say he is all you think he can be. That still means he's coming to a team that is WORSE THAN HIS DENVER TEAMS. So why do you think he can make the kings a successful playoff team, when he will have less talent around him?
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It's not that hard. Denver is almost exclusively veterans in their prime or on the decline. Our team is almost entirely rookies, second, and their year players who are only going to get better. You don't think there's a chance 2013 Tyreke and 2013 Demarcus are going to be better than 2009 Billups and 2009 Nene?
And, if we're gonna board the excuse bus, let's not forget the Nuggets have had numerous "issues" as well, such as injuries to Martin and and Nene and Karl's cancer, over the years.
It's funny because I'm actually not a big Carmelo fan. He is fairly one-dimensional (although he is very, very good at scoring) and I think his attitude would be a risk for the Kings. That said, I think there have been some claims made around here that need to be called out for how ridiculous they are.
