Whiteside impressed me more than Cousins

[SacTownGrantFan]

Whiteside didn't show me much in terms of skills that I didn't already know about him, but he did show a good attitude on the court and good activity. His bb IQ is lacking but he shows a solid jump shot (showed the wability to hit the bank shot), good hands, and a very good touch around the basket. He showed me that even though he is very raw and probably won't get many minutes, he is going to be aggressive, play hard and work to get better.

Cousins on the other hand played like a child. There's no doubt he showed tremendous skill level for a center, but the between the ears stuff disappointed me. It's not all his fault because the guard play on that team really sucked and everyone was looking for their own shot, so on some instances it's hard to blame him for not being aggressive on the block. The problem though is that when things didn't go his way, he started throwing his head back and swinging his arms, and basically getting lazy and sluggish. His motor was off and on and I don't really buy the fatigue excuse entirely, I'm sure fatigue and conditioning was an issue but it seemed as though he can turn it on when he wanted to. I don't like how easily discouraged and frustrated he gets (and personally, I don't care what his reasons are, there are no excuses), he has a lot of maturing left to do.

It seemed as though he had a lot of problems when facing stronger and tougher opponents, even though most of them are borderline NBA players. If he couldn't back his man down he'd take an off balanced jumper, or stay out on the perimeter to shoot a 20 footer, make a risky pass, or make an awkward dribble drive to the basket. He can face up well for a 280 lbs center, but he's not a face up player, especially 20 feet out. He really needs to work on staying under control and playing smart. If he gets this frustrated and discouraged by these summer league guys, then he is in for a rude awakening in the NBA. The coaches are going to need to kick his butt like Calipari did if they don't want him to fall into some really bad habits. Before the SPL I wanted him to start, but based on what I saw I don't think he's ready for starting minutes. Keep the leash short and make him earn his minutes by being an aggressive post player and showing a good demeanor on the court.

I still think he can and will be a very good player, but I don't think it will be as soon as I originally thought. We'll see how he looks in preseason though.

Wow, what a ridiculous, biased post.

I was right; you are overwhelming negative about Cousins. I think you might want to readjust your glasses a bit; the guy won NBA rookie of the month!

I'm not looking forward to your posts if he doesn't win Rookie of the Month every single month this season, because already the feedback is bad. Wow.

You are a Kings fan, right? Try and be more positive about our center of the future.

 

[Lockehead]

Wow, what a ridiculous, biased post.

I was right; you are overwhelming negative about Cousins. I think you might want to readjust your glasses a bit; the guy won NBA rookie of the month!

I'm not looking forward to your posts if he doesn't win Rookie of the Month every single month this season, because already the feedback is bad. Wow.

You are a Kings fan, right? Try and be more positive about our center of the future.

You cant just call his post ridiculous and biased, and then say nothing in response to his points lol

 

[swisshh]

Keep the leash short and make him earn his minutes by being an aggressive post player and showing a good demeanor on the court.

I fully expect this to happen.

 

[Prince_XY]

You cant just call his post ridiculous and biased, and then say nothing in response to his points lol

Sorry, but I have to say you need to read his post again. The guy actually has a nice counter-point and even has it in bold letters. lol

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Eh, I'm going to have to defend Vlade4GM on this one: Vlade4GM made a reasonable, if obviously biased, criticism, to which SacTownGrantFan replied with what essentially amounted to the playground-esque "Scoreboard!" I'm not seeing how that constitutes a quality response.

 

[sono]

No worries there's a couch who could give him a chest-bump when needs.

 

[KingsFan54]

I'm saying what every one else is saying here. OP said, "played like a child." Throwing his arms up and all over the place in frustration. Throwing his head back and rolling his eyes when he doesn't get his way every time. I watched 5 of the SL games and DMC did that childish stuff repeatedly. I didnt see any other rookies or players doing it. It shows weakness to an opponent in my opinion and DMC needs to learn that's a deadly sin in the mans league NBA. I love his aggressiveness and amazing skill level but I don't like all the other distracting juvenile stuff. He's only 19 years of age, so he gets a little break - but at 19 last year Tyreke was WAY more poised.

How was it then that Cousins received the rookie of the month award? He must have done something good to get that. I think you are being a little too critical, IMHO

 

[Rookie]

Eh, I'm going to have to defend Vlade4GM on this one: Vlade4GM made a reasonable, if obviously biased, criticism, to which SacTownGrantFan replied with what essentially amounted to the playground-esque "Scoreboard!" I'm not seeing how that constitutes a quality response.

Well when the whole post is mostly negative and the best thing he stated about Cousin is " I still think he can and will be a very good player, but I don't think it will be as soon as I originally thought. We'll see how he looks in preseason though.", to me it's BIAS.

If I didn't read some feedback from the game thread on Cousins, I would be lead to believe this guy suck. But yet as SacTownGF pointed out, he won ROM. It still doesn't mean much but it sure show me he isn't sucking as bad as I was lead to believe.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well when the whole post is mostly negative and the best thing he stated about Cousin is " I still think he can and will be a very good player, but I don't think it will be as soon as I originally thought. We'll see how he looks in preseason though.", to me it's BIAS.

What's your point? There's no rule that says that somebody can't be negative or biased against a player and still have an intelligent argument. Contrary to popular opinion, you can be intelligent, and still be wrong. I don't particularly think that "Neener, neener" is a suitable response to a reasoned post, even if it is based on a biased point of view.

I mean, instead of just parrotting "ROM," why not make a case for why Vlade4GM is wrong when he says that Cousins was disappointing between the ears? Why not make a case for why he's wrong when he says that fatigue was not a legitimate excuse, or why he's wrong when he says Cousins is quick to settle for jumpers when he can't back his man down? I mean, you basically seem to be saying that you don't have to defend your argument as long as it's pro-Kings, is that right?

 

[Prince_XY]

I was favorably impressed by Whiteside. I hadn't seen him in college and was expecting someone even more raw offensively. He showed me some offense that is very encouraging -an outside bank shot, and some nice inside moves. He obviously has to get stronger, but there is a lot to work with there. I thought he played with a good demeanor. He worked hard, and he just kept at it. That doesn't mean that he continually worked hard like he needs to in the NBA. He had his lapses. But overall, he showed me that he can be an excellent player down the line.

Cousins was more like I expected. He has talent. He's immature for a 19 year old. He's out of shape by NBA standards. He's emotional/passionate.

The one thing I really didn't expect, though, was all the outside shots and fade-aways. Also, he showed me some nice passing that I didn't see from him in college.

Cousins' demeanor right now is really going to hurt him in his rookie year. He's going to face a lot of challenges and a lot of nights where things don't go very well for him, which is typical for a rookie. But if you have a sulky demeanor, it makes the down nights even more down, like black-hole down. Until he developes mental toughness (see Tyreke), it is really going to hurt him. At this point, I would expect just the opposite of Tyreke's incredible stability from Cousins in his rookie year. Major highs. And major, major lows. This is just a process he's going to have to work through, like a bad habit that needs to be broken. Like Whiteside, Cousins is a project. Just a different kind.

Speaking of bad habits, by allowing Cousins to shoot outside jumpers and fade-away jump shots, the coaches are not just not doing something beneficial, they are actually encouraging bad habits. This is terribly detrimental and should be immediately stopped by Westphal once practice begins. The longer bad habits are allowed, the harder they are to break.

This post is the best.

I wish the starter post for this thread had been written as friendlier to Cousins and as balanced as this one and maybe it could have avoided the suspicion of being critically biased against Cousins by some posters. I admire this post by Kingster. You can feel the honesty and you can tell it is not something done to primarily put down Cousins. He even mentioned that seldom talked about talent of Cousins which is passing which I think surprizes some of the fans.

Oh, and you know what I found? This Kingster guy didn't even have Cousins among his 1st or 2nd choice for the Kings draft at #5!

I wish I could have the talent in criticizing players in a very kind way - the way this Kingster guy had done in his post.

 

[Kingster]

Wow, what a ridiculous, biased post.

I was right; you are overwhelming negative about Cousins. I think you might want to readjust your glasses a bit; the guy won NBA rookie of the month!

I'm not looking forward to your posts if he doesn't win Rookie of the Month every single month this season, because already the feedback is bad. Wow.

You are a Kings fan, right? Try and be more positive about our center of the future.

You don't have to lecture Vlade. He's one of the more knowledgable fans on this board. "Don't worry, be happy" doesn't substitute for an analysis.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

Everything Vlad said is the truth.

The thing I think is the problem to agree with, atleast in my point of view, is that if you measure the player and check whos the more impressive one, it's hands down Cousins and whoever says otherwise didn't really watch the game.

Now if how impressed you are is according to the expectations you've had before from players X and Y, then you might have a point there.

I still think even if thats the point Cousins is more impressive, although Whiteside we all thoughts has no O, and he showed some preety nice post moves, nice mid range, and obviusly the blockshots.

Now the thing is the guy is clueless on where to stand on defence, tries to block every other shot which results in alot of easy baskets to the opponents, and can't catch a ball if his life depends on it.

Cousins downers for me were basicly just the trying to take charges too often, the being too up high next to he 3 point line and taking shots too far away, and his condition and stamina on all 6 games.


I take counsins 3 games as more of an indication to his true ability, and in those he was more then amazing.

But I can see Vlad point, even though he's obviusly somewhat biased in his words, but still spoke the truth nonetheless.. I just happen to dissagree.

 

[Rookie]

What's your point? There's no rule that says that somebody can't be negative or biased against a player and still have an intelligent argument. Contrary to popular opinion, you can be intelligent, and still be wrong. I don't particularly think that "Neener, neener" is a suitable response to a reasoned post, even if it is based on a biased point of view.

I mean, instead of just parrotting "ROM," why not make a case for why Vlade4GM is wrong when he says that Cousins was disappointing between the ears? Why not make a case for why he's wrong when he says that fatigue was not a legitimate excuse, or why he's wrong when he says Cousins is quick to settle for jumpers when he can't back his man down? I mean, you basically seem to be saying that you don't have to defend your argument as long as it's pro-Kings, is that right?

My point is pretty simple, the post is bias. I thought I defended my case about him being bias...///shrug oh well.

There's no rule that I can't point people out being too bias where I can't trust their post.

 

[fnordius]

I thought I defended my case about him being bias...///shrug oh well.

Since 1988 I've been searching the Internet for a poster without bias. I'll let you know if I find anyone.

 

[NME]

Since 1988 I've been searching the Internet for a poster without bias. I'll let you know if I find anyone.

Diogenes spent his life searching for an honest man.

SPOILER ALERT: It didn't end well!

 

[Kings Faithful]

I'm glad he has an outside shot and isn't afraid to use it. To me it was obvious that Cousins got tired those last few games and resorted to shooting the outside jumper a little too much, but when he was fresh Cousins played EXACTLY how I would want him to. A jack of all trades and a master of some... thats what I see. I don't blame Cousins for being tired. It hard to have that much physical activity in that short of a period, not to mention he is 280 pounds and, like most of the rookies, hasn't played any organized basketball for months. If you expected Cousins to be like Shaq, then yes you will be dissapointed. I just expect Cousins to be good and frankly don't give a crap whether he does it in a Webber fashion or a Shaq fashion.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

You also gotta remember the guy experience with Basketball is playing in collage, and like 23 minutes a game.

So think about 30 min a game at a bit higher level with people fighting for thier jobs out on the floor, and playing 6 games in 7 days on top of it all.

No one can overlook that and say that fatigue wasn't a major major issue in how his game dropped.


All in all, that whats SL is for, and i'm glad he got a taste of all this right now, and also the coaching stuff saw how he looks in REALLY bad games.. this way we can't be caught offguard and know whats needed to be done and worked on.

 

[swisshh]

My perspective before and after SL

Cousins before SL: Derrick Coleman
Cousins after SL: Still Coleman slow, but with many more tools. Poor conditioning, either zoned out or pooped out after three SL games. Dominated at times, but is more immature than other players his age. He was always the least mature guy on the court while being surrounded by players close to his age. Needs to muscle up and stay away from the cute stuff during real play. I think at first he wanted to showcase all he could do and it surprised people, but teams adjusted and his little flips at the basket reminded me too much of Miller/Shareef/JT/etc. Commentators kept saying how he needs to use his size to create space, which they were saying to mean that he needs to create space due to lack of lift and jumping ability. Get the space and throw it down. Send Boogie some Project Runway DVDs, because he needs to get Fierce.

Whiteside before SL: Awkward stretch armstrong
Whiteside after SL: Awkward stretch armstrong with a workable shot. Showed more offense than expected, but left himself out of position on rebounds while going for the highlight. Got better at rebounding as SL went on.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

My point is pretty simple, the post is bias.

Aye, I got that. For the record, I think that it's biased, too. My question was more along the lines of why do your comments suggest that you think biased = invalid?

I thought I defended my case about him being bias...///shrug oh well.

If you think that "ZOMG~!BIAS" constitutes a defense... then I guess you defended your case.

I wasn't trying to say that people aren't biased, for or against (frankly, as NME alluded to, there's nobody here, or anywhere else, who isn't biased in one direction or other), and I certainly wasn't trying to say that you're not entitled to say that he's biased. I'm really just trying to achieve two things:

1. Encourage people to read the actual content of the post, and defend/refute it based on the merits, as opposed to dismissing it out-of-hand as being biased if doesn't come to the same conclusion you did.

2. Discourage some of the "witch hunting" we've had in the past. Let's try not to play "Dogpile on the dissenting opinion" this year, mmmkay?

 

[TheFifthMookie]

why not make a case for why Vlade4GM is wrong when he says that Cousins was disappointing between the ears?

You neglected to include Vlade4GM's pro-whiteside over cousins bias in there.

I don't feel a need to argue blow by blow details with people who don't believe in climate change for the same reason this post didn't deserve a thought out response. When the experts agree on something (Rookie of the Month here, or Peer Reviewed Consensus there) and someone wants to argue against them, they better have a damn compelling case if they want to be taken seriously.

 

[swisshh]

In real discussion and real debate, you read what people say, make your own summary of their points, make this summary something that is true to the other's perspective(no strawmen, create something like Derrida's double commentary), and then analyze the points/issues, then critique those points/issues.

When you don't do these things then you are just making a bunch of useless noise.

 

[Kingsguy881]

OP, how would u play ball if your legs were so sore it hurt to even move them, let alone jump any? How would you play if you could barely catch your wind? See, these things I have felt before and know exactly what he was feeling. I don't think you do???

 

[Bricklayer]

Ellie sent him a message and I think intentionally ran him into the ground so Cousins realizes right now, that nba conditioning isn't a joke.

I think this was what was going on there, and hopefully it will pay dividends. What I didn't like was Cousins apparent response to it -- in a lot of ways how you confront adversity can define you as a player (not to mention a person) and Cousins demeanor was just sulky and painful to watch at times. And in the last game it really looked like he said, screw this, I quit. The conversation over on the sideline with Elie didn't really appear to be a great meeting of the minds either. I was down with the attitude when he channeled that emotion into "I'm going to kick your ***" in the Minny game. But he never returned from our day off (and there was that one troubling report about him being out on the town at 3:00am) and from that point on there was little to like about his demenaor unless you have fond memories of Brad's bitter beer face.

Luckily the kid has huge talent -- more so than even advertised. That's the most important thing -- you can draft "mature" scrubs til the cows come home and be awful forever. We got a huge talent. But its also apparent we have a kid who needs to grow and toughen up some. Having Dalembert and all this frontcourt depth gives us a real luxury this season of not having to lean on Boogie until he's ready for it.

 

[Gary]

When I am with a woman in Vegas it takes about 12 hours to "walk" down the strip.. It's all probably overwhelming for Cousins to all of a sudden have all this attention + 110 degree heat + 6 games in 7 days + new teammates + not very good guards = breakdown for the last few days..

 

[swisshh]

Cousins got a lot of attention and Vegas is full of distractions, but it is not like that sort of stuff will go away. That is part of the NBA game, balancing the actual game against the off-court life.

 

[Prince_XY]

Having Dalembert and all this frontcourt depth gives us a real luxury this season of not having to lean on Boogie until he's ready for it.

This is the second time I've seen you mention the name Dalembert ( and not Landry ) as important asset that will help this team go through its development.

Does this mean you are also leaning towards retaining Dalembert instead of Landry if that time comes we absolutely have to give up one of the two?

 

[Prince_XY]

In real discussion and real debate, you read what people say, make your own summary of their points, make this summary something that is true to the other's perspective(no strawmen, create something like Derrida's double commentary), and then analyze the points/issues, then critique those points/issues.

When you don't do these things then you are just making a bunch of useless noise.

I agree. But in the world of internet and real life, can we really have time to do this?

I remember one person in this forum who after reading the post of someone he said he had to go to work as if saying he's got no time to respond. But before he left he said something in the line of screw you or screw your post ( to the poster ).

I am just saying although a lot of these knowledgeable posters can really follow what you are saying they just couldn't. And saying if Cousins really sucked, how come he got ROM award is a way of summarizing all his points without going into the detail of what you are asking for.

Oh well. Maybe we just have to accept that those posters rich enough who do not have to work and therefore have plenty of idle time to post lengthily win in this kind of internet debates.

 

[mac]

The Mario Ellie postgame interview after the Bulls game pretty much summed it up for me. He said that Cousins was tired, and was going out to shoot jumpshots because he knew he wouldn't be double and triple teamed outside. Cousins should have gotten the message.

 

[Spike]

When I am with a woman in Vegas ....

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

 

[Arco Thunder]

... But he never returned from our day off (and there was that one troubling report about him being out on the town at 3:00am) and from that point on there was little to like about his demenaor unless you have fond memories of Brad's bitter beer face...

Let's hope that Cousins has surrounded himself with people that will keep him accountable like Tyreke has surrounding him. I know that Boogie has stepped into a whole new world full of all kinds of distractions (far more than he has ever experienced before). I just hope he stays focused.