Monroe, Aldrich, or Johnson?

[TTown Kings]

Baja, I know you're a big Udoh supporter. Have you read this?

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/19/1479223/the-problems-with-ekpe-udoh#storyjump

If so what do you think of the analysis? Obviously he's not nearly as high on Udoh as you are. Both his defensive rebounding and offensive game are called into question...

 

[bajaden]

Odom has pretty long arms in his own right and a lot of people suggest he's a bit taller than 6'10. It's not inconceivable that he has a 9'0+ reach.

It's not easy to just develop ball handling from practically nill to above average. I just don't see that much upside with Aminu at SF, even if he progresses reasonably well with his perimeter skills, he still seems like he'd be in the Deng tier of SF's. There's too much he has to learn to become a very valuable SF. If he's going to find his spot, it's going to have to be as those newfangled hybrid PF's.

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little Vlade. I don't think Aminu has a large frame at all. Odom has much wider shoulders and appears to be big boned. Aminu appears to be small boned to me, and for that reason I just don't see him playing PF on a regular basis. I still see him as a SF that can occasionally move over to the PF spot. His game kind of reminds me a little bit of Beasley in college, but with a worse outside shot. But he has a better work ethic than Beasley. I think the kid can be a star one day. I just don't think he fits what we need right now.

 

[bajaden]

It seems like you're going well out of your way to find something to argue about after we both agreed on Johnson over Aminu, but if you insist...

Wallace and Marion assuredly weigh over 200 lbs, something that Johnson cannot claim. I'm 6' and I have weighed over 200 in my life, I mean come on. Our starting PG outweighs him by 20 lbs plus.

Don't get me wrong if we take him I hope you're right but if he becomes a King lets pool together to get him a gift basket of weight gainer.

Why don't we wait till we get the results from the combine before we argue over the height and weight of the players. At least then we'll have something substantial to argue with.

 

[Chupacabra]

Baja, I know you're a big Udoh supporter. Have you read this?

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/19/1479223/the-problems-with-ekpe-udoh#storyjump

If so what do you think of the analysis? Obviously he's not nearly as high on Udoh as you are. Both his defensive rebounding and offensive game are called into question...

No, im not Baja. I dont give this article much credit. I just dont like listening to people talk about efficiency numbers. You watch them play. Thats what its all about. Udoh is a stud.

 

[bajaden]

You searched out something to disagree with. Aminu's defense is a large part of the skill set he brings, and his shot blocking is a large part of that. I'm not trying to argue whether or not your primary shotblocker should be your SF I'm saying he brings it. Call it a novelty if you want, but when he's disrupting the other team's offense with it I doubt they consider it such.

And Johnson I see as just getting swept around anywhere near the paint. He may get blocks from helping or on perimeter but stronger guys on the NBA are just going to shrug him off. To block shots you have to get and maintain position. On the ball I see Aminu as a much better SF defender at the NBA level.

Johnson got most of his blocks by coming as a weakside defender. He's very good a it, and he also has a good wingspan. He's not the type your describing as a guy thats going man on man in the paint. But then neither was Aminu. Look, both these guys are great athletes. Both are good jumpers and both have great wingspans. The major difference between them, other than weight, is that Johnson is a very good outside shooter.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little Vlade. I don't think Aminu has a large frame at all. Odom has much wider shoulders and appears to be big boned. Aminu appears to be small boned to me, and for that reason I just don't see him playing PF on a regular basis. I still see him as a SF that can occasionally move over to the PF spot. His game kind of reminds me a little bit of Beasley in college, but with a worse outside shot. But he has a better work ethic than Beasley. I think the kid can be a star one day. I just don't think he fits what we need right now.

Maybe you're right, you probably watched him more than I did, but he does look like he has a big frame, at least for a SF. I agree that Odom has a bigger frame than him, which is why i was comparing him more to Josh Smith.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Epke Udoh! Write down the name... And to be clear. Monroe is not that good a rebounder, although he did improve this year. He's still a solely lefthanded player that goes predominately over his right shoulder.

My problem with Monroe is that he just reminds me too much of what we already have in Hawes. He can play in the post, but he'd rather be out at the top of the key. Like Hawes, he's a good passer and he shoots well from out there. I think he can be a decent post player, but I also think its just not in his makeup to want to be there. I'll take both Aldrich or Udoh over Monroe. Both those guys can play defense and rebound. And with Udoh you get the added bonus of his being a decent offensive player. Plus both Aldrich and Udoh are better athlete's than Monroe.

To be fair, I think Monroe has more discipline than Hawes. Also you have to acknowledge that G'town's system may have enabled his predilection for hanging out on the perimeter.

 

[Vlade4GM]

For whatever reason, a lot of mock drafts and writers seems to be very high on Wesley Johnson. While he was around #6-#8 in most initial mock drafts, he has been bumped up to #4 in many mocks. If he works out well with teams, I would not be suprised at all to see him go in the top 3. Remember, guys like Derrick Favors has a lot of potential but is still raw. If GMs don't like his workouts/interviews etc, he can drop a couple spots while more experienced players like Johnson sneaks up.

At this point, I don't even know if Cousins is a sure top 5 pick even if he slips down to us. The comparisons to Eddy Curry is just scary. I mean these writers are wrong a lot of times, but its a fine line between a star and a bust like Curry.

Favors is not raw defensively and that matters a lot when it comes to bigs re: Thabeet. Favors is also not raw when it comes to the fact that he's still 18 years old, only a freshman, and played in a system that hid his offensive talents.

 

[Vlade4GM]

What college does someone play for...?

We don't know, it's random

 

[Vlade4GM]

The combine is being televised by NBA TV. The coverage starts at 12 noon thursday and runs through sunday. Its on twice on thursday and then on three times on friday, saturday, and then twice on sunday again. I don't know if every telecast is new or if some are repeats,

Do you happen to know what day they do the measurements? I seem to remember it being on the last day, but I could be wrong.

 

[bajaden]

I don't see why anyone would take Johnson over Aminu after looking at this past year's numbers and considering that Johnson is 3 years older than Aminu.

Aminu
19 So.

18.9 PPG 44%FG
12.8 RPG
1.6 APG
1.7 SPG
1.7 BPG
3.8 TPG

Johnson
22 RS Jr.

17.8 PPG 50%FG
9.2 RPG
2.4 APG
1.8 SPG
2.0 BPG
2.5 TPG

Johnson shoots better and is less turnover prone, but he averages about 4 rebounds less per game than Aminu, who, as far as I can tell, is one of the best rebounding SF prospects in at least the last decade.


Honestly, I think Aminu has every bit the upside that the consensus top 4 guys have, if not more.

Mi amigo, Johnson played away from the basket, and did most of his scoring from the outside. Aminu played PF and near the basket and did most of his scoring in or near the post. They were two entirely different types of players.

You see the reason I watch teams like Syracuse play 16 times and Kentucky play 24 times and Kansas play 19 times is so I don't have to look at a bunch of stats and try to argue from them. Stats are wonderful, but they just don't tell the whole story. And thats two fold in college. Every college team is made up differently and coached differently. Some have good guard play and others don't know what the word guard means.

Jerome Randle summed it up pretty well when he was asked about how he really broke out this year as a distributer and scorer. He said that when Montgomery took over he freed him up to do the things he could do. But under Ben Baum (probably misspelled) he had to play within the system that the coach wanted.

If you only watched Favors play one or two times this year, you'd think he was a bust. But when you watch 15 times you see the talent and realize that he's just a victim of bad guard play and the system he's playing in. Point being, that the stats just don't show the whole picture. Its highly possible that Johnson might be an even better NBA player than he was a college player. Because he was never given a free reign in the Syracuse system. Unlike Turner who was at Ohio St.

Just for fun, compare Turners stats with Aminu's, and come back and tell me that Aminu is a better player. And the stats might actually indicate that. But if you watched them both play, its night and day difference. Hands down Turner is superior in just about every aspect of the game.

 

[Sparky6string]

Johnson got most of his blocks by coming as a weakside defender. He's very good a it, and he also has a good wingspan. He's not the type your describing as a guy thats going man on man in the paint. But then neither was Aminu. Look, both these guys are great athletes. Both are good jumpers and both have great wingspans. The major difference between them, other than weight, is that Johnson is a very good outside shooter.

Well that's simplifying it a bit but that's essentially how I'm looking at it right now as well. And yeah I'm still in it for a big also, probably Aldrich but Udoh is getting my attention now too.

 

[Kingster]

To be fair, I think Monroe has more discipline than Hawes. Also you have to acknowledge that G'town's system may have enabled his predilection for hanging out on the perimeter.

He sure seemed invisible in the games I saw. The one game I thought he looked great in was against Thabeet (year before last), but I don't know how much that tells you.

 

[bajaden]

While I agree it would be silly to trade down for Bledsoe, I don't agree with your take on Bledsoe.

I think he has untapped PG skills that were hidden at Kentucky because he was forced to play out of position and wasn't given enough consistent run at the pt. For whatever it's worth, his PG skills were much more lauded coming out of HS. His shot is streaky, but there's no reason to think he can't improve on that eventually. He's Mario Chalmers like IMO, and Chalmers would be a great fit next to Evans.

Sorry, I disagree. He turned the ball over in 25% of his possessions. He's not a very good passer. His handles are OK until he gets into traffic. But to each his own. He's a long way from being an NBA point guard, and I think thats the point.

 

[Vlade4GM]

He sure seemed invisible in the games I saw. The one game I thought he looked great in was against Thabeet, but I don't know how much that tells you.

It may be that he's passive, it may be because of g'town's system, or it could be both. It's hard to tell when it comes to that team.

 

[Sparky6string]

No I don't want Monroe but I'll be interested to watch him play in the NBA. I love a good post passer. I wish the Kings had one but not at the expense of athleticism and mental toughness. Guys like Shaq and Karl Malone make it look so easy.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Sorry, I disagree. He turned the ball over in 25% of his possessions. He's not a very good passer. His handles are OK until he gets into traffic. But to each his own. He's a long way from being an NBA point guard, and I think thats the point.

That's what some people thought about Jrue Holiday as well. I'm not saying they're the same players, but I think Holiday is evidence how one's teammates and system can make someone look worse than they actually are. I'm not even saying he'll be a pure point, but along the lines of a Mario Chalmers, who'll provide defense, shooting, and enough playmaking ability to give Evans an occasional break at PG.

 

[bajaden]

Baja, I know you're a big Udoh supporter. Have you read this?

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/19/1479223/the-problems-with-ekpe-udoh#storyjump

If so what do you think of the analysis? Obviously he's not nearly as high on Udoh as you are. Both his defensive rebounding and offensive game are called into question...

I haven't read it yet, but I will. I watched Udoh play a lot, and yes, stat wise he was a much better offensive rebounder than defensive. But if you watched Baylor play, they consistently played a 2/3 zone. Which means both guards were out on the perimeter and they had Udoh out guarding the left wing as you face the basket, Lomer's the center under the basket and their other big, whose name eludes me at the moment out guarding the right wing. So on defense, Udoh was playing quite a bit away from the basket, which I think hurt his defensive rebounding. If you kept track during the game, and at the time Lomer's went out of the game and Udoh moved into the center position, his defensive rebounding went up.

Offensively, he made great strides this last season. When you compare it to his last season at Michigan before transfering. He passes the ball well for a big and he handles the ball fairly well. Both his post game and his outside shot still need work. But he does have a good foundation for an offensive game and I think in time he could be pretty good. You've got to remember that this was his first year playing for Baylor, and he wasn't the focus of the offense. Baylor was more of a guard oriented team with Tweety Carter at the point and with a great scorer at SG with LaceDarius Dunn. Who I think would be a first round pick had he enter the draft.

Also remember that Udoh is 6'10" with a reported wingspan of 7'6", and he's a very good athlete with good hops. So although he's a little older than some of the others, like Johnson, I think he still has good upside. I haven't even mentioned that he's a very good man defender and a good weakside defender. And he averaged 3.6 blocked shots a game.

 

[bajaden]

Baja, I know you're a big Udoh supporter. Have you read this?

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/19/1479223/the-problems-with-ekpe-udoh#storyjump

If so what do you think of the analysis? Obviously he's not nearly as high on Udoh as you are. Both his defensive rebounding and offensive game are called into question...

OK, I read the article. Obvious to me that he never saw Udoh play and is just going off stats. He merely glanced over the defensive abilities of Udoh, which happens to be his biggest asset. Then he compares the shooting percentage of Favors against Udoh's. This is another example of not seeing someone play the game and just going on stats.Almost every single basket the Favors made was from point blank range under the basket. Where only around 65% of Udoh's baskets were from that range. And the rest were jumpshots from 15 to 18 feet. Logic tells you that your percentage is going to be higher when your under the basket. I can also tell you that a lot of Udoh's jumpshots came with the clock running down and he didn't have a choice.

He also discards all of his offensive skills by saying that well, we already have someone that can do that. What the hell does that have to do with anything. I'll tell you one thing he can do that no one else on the team can do, and thats block shots.

 

[bajaden]

Maybe you're right, you probably watched him more than I did, but he does look like he has a big frame, at least for a SF. I agree that Odom has a bigger frame than him, which is why i was comparing him more to Josh Smith.

Josh Smith is a much better comparison. And I could see him becoming a Josh Smith type of player..

 

[bajaden]

Do you happen to know what day they do the measurements? I seem to remember it being on the last day, but I could be wrong.

I think the measurements are done on either friday or saturday. My best guess is friday, and usually they're posted by saturday or sunday.

 

[bajaden]

That's what some people thought about Jrue Holiday as well. I'm not saying they're the same players, but I think Holiday is evidence how one's teammates and system can make someone look worse than they actually are. I'm not even saying he'll be a pure point, but along the lines of a Mario Chalmers, who'll provide defense, shooting, and enough playmaking ability to give Evans an occasional break at PG.

Yeah, don't misunderstand me. I think Bledsoe will be a good player some day. I just think he's a long way from being that right now. And considering we really don't have a need for what he brings right now, I just didn't see the logic in trading down to get him. I know it wasn't you that suggested that. If I was going to take a flyer on someone, it would be Avery Bradley. Because I know he can come in and defend, both the point and the two. And I wouldn't take a flyer on him either..

 

[Vlade4GM]

How about taking a flier on Kevin Seraphin? Come on, lets agree on something

 

[LPKingsFan]

It may be that he's passive, it may be because of g'town's system, or it could be both. It's hard to tell when it comes to that team.

I lived in Washington for most of this year, and it's definitely the system. The fact that he improved his rebounding #s so much while still playing out on the perimeter shows me he's a much better rebounder than Miller or Hawes. Skilled, yes. Soft, perhaps. But not the same as our previous disappointments.

 

[bajaden]

How about taking a flier on Kevin Seraphin? Come on, lets agree on something

As you know, I usually don't comment on european players. However I have read quite a bit on him and I must say he sounds intriguing. So OK, I'm willing to take a flyer on him. Besides, he's a French player and most of them have proven to be better on average than most others. So we agree.. Yi Pi!!!

 

[bajaden]

I lived in Washington for most of this year, and it's definitely the system. The fact that he improved his rebounding #s so much while still playing out on the perimeter shows me he's a much better rebounder than Miller or Hawes. Skilled, yes. Soft, perhaps. But not the same as our previous disappointments.

I'm not totally down on Monroe. Its his lack of athleticism that bothers me the most. There's no doubt that he's a very skilled player, and would make the team better. The real question is would someone else thats available make a bigger impact. I'm sure Petrie is familiar with almost all of these players, so now its just a matter of close up and personal.

I know for a fact that he's familiar with the Kentucky crew because I saw him at one of the games. I also saw him at one of the Baylor games, so I know he's familiar with Ekpe Udoh.

I know everyone is thinking Monroe because they think he's a Petrie type player. I don't think they're giving Petrie credit for going in another direction. They're basing it completely on how he built the team the first time. There's no doubt he likes skilled players. But of late he's leaned in the direction of athleticism as well. Brockman has a skill and its rebounding and toughness. Tyreke is certainly skilled, but once again, he's tough and he's a good defensive player. He had Greene included in the Artest trade and Greene was hardly skilled, but once again athletic. Ditto Casspi. I don't include Hawes in this group because I believe Petrie has taken a different direction since he drafted Hawes. Besides, if the rumors are to be believed, he wanted Noah, but had to settle for Hawes.

Don't know if thats true or not, but if it is, Noah doesn't fit the description of the typical Petrie pick. So I don't think its a given that we pick Monroe based on past experience. Remember, when Riley coached the Lakers its was showtime. Magic time. But when he went to the Knicks, it became get down and dirty time. So its possible to change directions. I think Petrie is trying to build an entirely different kind of team this time. We shall see..

 

[LPKingsFan]

I know everyone is thinking Monroe because they think he's a Petrie type player. I don't think they're giving Petrie credit for going in another direction. They're basing it completely on how he built the team the first time. There's no doubt he likes skilled players. But of late he's leaned in the direction of athleticism as well. Brockman has a skill and its rebounding and toughness. Tyreke is certainly skilled, but once again, he's tough and he's a good defensive player. He had Greene included in the Artest trade and Greene was hardly skilled, but once again athletic. Ditto Casspi. I don't include Hawes in this group because I believe Petrie has taken a different direction since he drafted Hawes. Besides, if the rumors are to be believed, he wanted Noah, but had to settle for Hawes.

Don't know if thats true or not, but if it is, Noah doesn't fit the description of the typical Petrie pick. So I don't think its a given that we pick Monroe based on past experience. Remember, when Riley coached the Lakers its was showtime. Magic time. But when he went to the Knicks, it became get down and dirty time. So its possible to change directions. I think Petrie is trying to build an entirely different kind of team this time. We shall see..

Oh, I agree completely on this. We haven't run a Princeton-type offense in years, and it's pretty clear Petrie's been making a concerted effort to take this team in a different direction. To me, Curry would have been the protoypcial "Petrie choice" at #4 last year, but we went with Evans. And yes, all indications were that Petrie liked Noah and would have taken him had the Bulls gone in a different direction in 2007 (if only). So yeah, Monroe "screams Petrie" in some sense, but I don't think that makes him a sure favorite at all for us this year.

 

[roasthawg]

Aldrich is a no brainer as far as I'm concerned... as long as Cousins is gone that is. Aldrich will block a ton of shots and grab a bunch of rebounds in the NBA while providing good post presence on both sides of the ball. He compares to Andrew Bogut for me... I think he'll be a great pick at #5.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Aldrich is a no brainer as far as I'm concerned... as long as Cousins is gone that is. Aldrich will block a ton of shots and grab a bunch of rebounds in the NBA while providing good post presence on both sides of the ball. He compares to Andrew Bogut for me... I think he'll be a great pick at #5.

Bogut was so much more offensively advanced coming out of college. I doubt Aldrich could ever get near his level offensively.

 

[roasthawg]

Bogut was so much more offensively advanced coming out of college. I doubt Aldrich could ever get near his level offensively.

Yeah, it's not a perfect comparison as like you said Bogut was more advanced offensively coming out (far better passer and a better scorer as well). But Aldrich is a slightly better rebounder coming out than Bogut was and is a much better shot blocker (Bogut has developed into a good one in the pros). Overall I think Aldrich could develop into a double/double type of center who blocks shots and plays good defense. I really like him... it's not even a comparison between Aldrich and the other two guys in this poll as far as I'm concerned.