I believe a good center and pf can help this team dramatically. Our frontcourt is, let's face it, the weakest in the league. Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes show signs of being able to play in this league, but by no means should they be your teams starting 4 and 5. I feel that if we had some help closer to the basket, it would only make the game that much easier for guys like Tyreke and Beno.
Can a good center turn this team around?
- Thread starter Gabriel
- Start date
What's a true "center." Over half the teams in NCAA men's basketball do not have a center on their team - because they are such rare human species. Most college teams play 2 guards and 3 forwards simply because those positions are much easier to fill with talent.
Even in the NBA there's a big-time shortage of quality centers. Who are the really quality so-called centers spread out among 32 NBA teams? Here's a list of about a dozen that would be considered superstar or star level - it's a very short list considering how many teams in the league don't have a quality center on their roster.
Dwight Howard (dominant); Shaq ONeal (freak of nature who is aging fast); Andrew Bynum (next Shaq?); Brook Lopez (maybe 2nd best C in NBA or soon to be); Al Jefferson (easily a big-time PF too); Omeka Okafor (very solid C); David Lee (PF who plays in the middle effectively); Nene (very talented C); Brendon Haywood (just what Dallas needed); Chris Kaman (consistently gets it done); Marc Gasol (took over C position in Memphis from his brother Pau); Al Horford (played PF in college); Marcus Canby (still great shot blocker at his advanced age).
Okay, that's about the entire list of actual "quality" centers in the NBA - officially numbering 13. Maybe a couple more names could be added (like true PF Amare S., etc.) but since a couple on the list are mid-30's they'll soon be retiring. Basically, it means over half the teams in the NBA do not have a "good center."
Even in the NBA there's a big-time shortage of quality centers. Who are the really quality so-called centers spread out among 32 NBA teams? Here's a list of about a dozen that would be considered superstar or star level - it's a very short list considering how many teams in the league don't have a quality center on their roster.
Dwight Howard (dominant); Shaq ONeal (freak of nature who is aging fast); Andrew Bynum (next Shaq?); Brook Lopez (maybe 2nd best C in NBA or soon to be); Al Jefferson (easily a big-time PF too); Omeka Okafor (very solid C); David Lee (PF who plays in the middle effectively); Nene (very talented C); Brendon Haywood (just what Dallas needed); Chris Kaman (consistently gets it done); Marc Gasol (took over C position in Memphis from his brother Pau); Al Horford (played PF in college); Marcus Canby (still great shot blocker at his advanced age).
Okay, that's about the entire list of actual "quality" centers in the NBA - officially numbering 13. Maybe a couple more names could be added (like true PF Amare S., etc.) but since a couple on the list are mid-30's they'll soon be retiring. Basically, it means over half the teams in the NBA do not have a "good center."
Hawes was the 10th pick, JT was the 12th .. There as good as were we picked them, IMO. Now we should be in the top 10, top 7 unless we screw it up.. Were going to get a better big, whether it be cousins, favors, aldrich, or even udoh, I'm alot more confident in all of those guys than i was about JT or Hawes. We'll have better bigs next year.
I was watching the Nets game and I saw face to face Lopez v Hawes and I was surprised at how much BIGGER Brook looks than Spencer it was hilarious actually, I don't blame Spencer for not wanting to bang with these dudes.
But seriously like a poster mentioned above there are really only 10 at most quality big men in this league, and you could really only say about 4 of them are legit centers. The Big man who bangs and posts up is truly becoming a rare find in todays NBA. I see a guy like Roy Hibbert devloping slowly, hopefully he becomes something one day.
I really don't see why Spencer can't be this teams starting center, he has all the tools he just has to mature and he is doing that I think. Our main problem is not having anybody to back him up, JT shouldn't be our backup center. Our backup hopefully we will find in this draft a guy like Aldrich would be a nice backup big for us. Even a guy like Samhan would be a nice find, Hawes just needs a guy his size to bang with against in practice then we can see how his game will respond.
So to answer the original topic question, I think some depth at the 4/5 would help this team immensely. The same logjam we hate having at the 3, we would love to have at the 4/5 with 6'9-7'3 dudes, then we can see guys like Reke and Donte flourish.
But seriously like a poster mentioned above there are really only 10 at most quality big men in this league, and you could really only say about 4 of them are legit centers. The Big man who bangs and posts up is truly becoming a rare find in todays NBA. I see a guy like Roy Hibbert devloping slowly, hopefully he becomes something one day.
I really don't see why Spencer can't be this teams starting center, he has all the tools he just has to mature and he is doing that I think. Our main problem is not having anybody to back him up, JT shouldn't be our backup center. Our backup hopefully we will find in this draft a guy like Aldrich would be a nice backup big for us. Even a guy like Samhan would be a nice find, Hawes just needs a guy his size to bang with against in practice then we can see how his game will respond.
So to answer the original topic question, I think some depth at the 4/5 would help this team immensely. The same logjam we hate having at the 3, we would love to have at the 4/5 with 6'9-7'3 dudes, then we can see guys like Reke and Donte flourish.
Would have helped a lot of we had a good center for our "center of the future" to learn from in his first few seasons... Who does he have to learn from? Brad Miller? Ok check, he's got the outside and passing game down to a fair extent. Mikki Moore? Check, fumbles some balls. Sean May? Check, just shoots from the outside, hasn't performed up to draft expectations.
Looks like Spencer's learnt a lot from his mentors.
Back to the topic though, I think it's quite fair to say that a good player added to a core group of players with talent and potential will naturally turn the team around, regardless of position. But we need to have more depth and dependability for our frontline. Landry strengthened it, but he doesn't help in the rebounding department very much. I'm very interested to see how Hawes uses the coming offseason, now that he has supposedly bought into what the coaches have been telling him
Looks like Spencer's learnt a lot from his mentors.
Back to the topic though, I think it's quite fair to say that a good player added to a core group of players with talent and potential will naturally turn the team around, regardless of position. But we need to have more depth and dependability for our frontline. Landry strengthened it, but he doesn't help in the rebounding department very much. I'm very interested to see how Hawes uses the coming offseason, now that he has supposedly bought into what the coaches have been telling him
Well if we were lucky enough to land Cousins, I'm sure it would be a huge help toward turning the team around. Actually, I think the team has turned around and is heading in the other direction. Maybe too slowly to suit some, but none the less, the uphill journey has started.
If you look around the league, as has been pointed out, Hawes is probably in the upper half as far as centers go. Or at least it can be argued that he is. Now thats more of an indictment of the league, than it is an endorsement of Hawes. But it is what it is. Hawes is still young, and still has a chance to grow into the position. But a little insurance would help.
At the top of the draft the only two guys that are worthy of a high pick at the center position are Cousins and Aldrich. Both guys could have an impact on a team. But both guys are totally different types of players. After that there are some good big men, but their not centers.
In freeagency there are only a couple of guys that are worth considering. The best probably being Brandon Haywood. He would help the team, but he is older than the rest of the core and he probably wants to go to a contender. Another possiblity is to trade for a center and not move any players from our team in the process. Such as trading for Dalembert and his 12 mil salary that has one more year on it. Were far enough under the cap to just absorb the salary. We would have one year to see how he fits.
If you look around the league, as has been pointed out, Hawes is probably in the upper half as far as centers go. Or at least it can be argued that he is. Now thats more of an indictment of the league, than it is an endorsement of Hawes. But it is what it is. Hawes is still young, and still has a chance to grow into the position. But a little insurance would help.
At the top of the draft the only two guys that are worthy of a high pick at the center position are Cousins and Aldrich. Both guys could have an impact on a team. But both guys are totally different types of players. After that there are some good big men, but their not centers.
In freeagency there are only a couple of guys that are worth considering. The best probably being Brandon Haywood. He would help the team, but he is older than the rest of the core and he probably wants to go to a contender. Another possiblity is to trade for a center and not move any players from our team in the process. Such as trading for Dalembert and his 12 mil salary that has one more year on it. Were far enough under the cap to just absorb the salary. We would have one year to see how he fits.
No, a good center (top 10-6) can't turn this team around (get it above .500). Sure, a Dwight Howard could. A very good center (top 5) probably could. People are obsessing about the center position like it's the be-all-end all. It isn't. It's not the Holy Grail. Improvement needs to be made at every position. Even the Kings' best player needs to dramatically improve his outside shooting. The three position has been woefully inconsistent; both Greene and Casspi don't have a shot they go to repeatedly and are inconsistent in rebounding and help defense. Landry is small and doesn't have very good ability to help out on D, or control longer players individually. Beno is not quick enough for the long term answer at the 2. Thompson has two left feet (Will he EVER learn not to bring the ball down in the paint?). It's not just one player. That's why the Hawes obsession is over the top. He has to improve, but Thompson, Casspi, and Greene have to improve also, and Beno and Landry have limitations in their ceiling. This teams needs to get talent, at whatever position.
I think the answer to your question is yes. There may not be many in the league and they may be difficult to acquire BUT that's what we need - at least to start with.
For next year, to be sure we get in the playoffs we need a minimum of three things: (1) need a veteran starting center to add to Landry, Thompson and Hawes; (2) need a starting small forward ridding ourselves of either Greene or Casspi; (3) need a competent two guard to back up Evans, Udrih and Garcia. If we had the three we would definitely be firmly in the playoffs. The numbers 1 thru 3 are my priority. It would seem a very long shot to be able to get the three. If we got any two of the three we would be marginal playoff propects.
We would be extremely lucky to get one of the three from the draft directly. We could trade a good draftee for one of them. All we would have to trade to get another would be Nocioni and either Casspi or Greene. The rest - Udoka, McGuire, May, Brockman, Dorsey - are not enough to get us a player.
We need three new players with the draft an unlikely direct source for any of them. We dearly lack experience. So who we draft and who we get in a trade I don't care. We need the three above and there are lots of them in the league but they each would be hard to come by.
For next year, to be sure we get in the playoffs we need a minimum of three things: (1) need a veteran starting center to add to Landry, Thompson and Hawes; (2) need a starting small forward ridding ourselves of either Greene or Casspi; (3) need a competent two guard to back up Evans, Udrih and Garcia. If we had the three we would definitely be firmly in the playoffs. The numbers 1 thru 3 are my priority. It would seem a very long shot to be able to get the three. If we got any two of the three we would be marginal playoff propects.
We would be extremely lucky to get one of the three from the draft directly. We could trade a good draftee for one of them. All we would have to trade to get another would be Nocioni and either Casspi or Greene. The rest - Udoka, McGuire, May, Brockman, Dorsey - are not enough to get us a player.
We need three new players with the draft an unlikely direct source for any of them. We dearly lack experience. So who we draft and who we get in a trade I don't care. We need the three above and there are lots of them in the league but they each would be hard to come by.
It can also be argued that he's not.
Of what the ESPN site considers "qualified" centers, he is in the bottom 40% in: points, points/48, rebounds, rebounds/48, blocks per game, TOs, TOs/48, steals, and steals/48. He is dead last in points per shot, and second from last in FG%.
He is average in blocks/48, and above average in assists and assists/48.
His Roland Rating is around -3.3: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910SAC.HTM
Maybe he does better using only offensive ratings? No, in PER he's 27th among centers: http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...itScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=
Add it all up, and I'd call him below average.
I do agree with the notion that a good C could make a big difference. I don't have much confidence in the vets we'd be likely to pick up as FA this year, but I see some possibilities in the draft. Not as many as I'd like, but... some.
Of what the ESPN site considers "qualified" centers, he is in the bottom 40% in: points, points/48, rebounds, rebounds/48, blocks per game, TOs, TOs/48, steals, and steals/48. He is dead last in points per shot, and second from last in FG%.
He is average in blocks/48, and above average in assists and assists/48.
His Roland Rating is around -3.3: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910SAC.HTM
Maybe he does better using only offensive ratings? No, in PER he's 27th among centers: http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...itScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=
Add it all up, and I'd call him below average.
I do agree with the notion that a good C could make a big difference. I don't have much confidence in the vets we'd be likely to pick up as FA this year, but I see some possibilities in the draft. Not as many as I'd like, but... some.
Ha ha, well I really wasn't arguing one way or the other. I was trying to point out that the center position lacks a lot of quality around the league. I didn't take the time to go look up his stats and make comparisons. To be honest I looked at the starting centers on all the NBA teams and asked myself whether I would rather have him or Hawes. And about half the time I said Hawes. Maybe I'm letting his possible potential, and his age affect my thinking.
Regardless, the team needs another center. Preferly one that has more potential than Hawes and is a more physical player than Hawes. At the same time, I don't want to reach for one. Udoh, whose almost in the top ten anyway, and might be by the time of the draft, is about as far as I would reach.
Regardless, the team needs another center. Preferly one that has more potential than Hawes and is a more physical player than Hawes. At the same time, I don't want to reach for one. Udoh, whose almost in the top ten anyway, and might be by the time of the draft, is about as far as I would reach.
Yes. A good defensive center that can erase other players defensive mistakes and allow them to gamble makes any team significantly better. Unfortunately, if Landry is going to start then that defensive center needs to be a good rebounder also. So now its been narrowed down from just a defensive presence to a guy that can also grab double digit rebounds.
Another thing the Kings can do is add a wing player that grabs an unusual amount of rebounds for the position. The benefit of this would be that you can now broaden your search for a defensive center. It also gives you the strategic advantage of allowing both of your bigmen to get down the floor quickly and establish their position as they dont have to get the rebound and wait around to make the outlet pass.
Another thing the Kings can do is add a wing player that grabs an unusual amount of rebounds for the position. The benefit of this would be that you can now broaden your search for a defensive center. It also gives you the strategic advantage of allowing both of your bigmen to get down the floor quickly and establish their position as they dont have to get the rebound and wait around to make the outlet pass.
Not really sure what this new found obsession with getting a new three is about. Considering the fact that Greene and Casspi are both essentially first year players, I'm not really sure what every was expecting out of the guys. They will get better with time. (Pedja and Hedo along with some scrub named Gerald Wallace weren't exactly studs coming out of the gates- hell, with G-Dub you could say he fell at the starting line and got a face full of dirt).
Plus the last time we traded for experience at the three spot, we ended up with a three-point chucker who has assumed the role of overpaid benchwarmer.
Plus the last time we traded for experience at the three spot, we ended up with a three-point chucker who has assumed the role of overpaid benchwarmer.
Several points. Least important first. Nocioni, whatever you think of him, is probably our best small forward right now. What you say about our two first year small forwards is true, but neither of them are yet good enough to fill a starting small forward job on a team vying for a playoff spot, and if we get a starter there then we can't give both young guys minutes. So, if we want to realisticly compete for a playoff spot next year, neither of those guys can start. Nothing personal. If you don't care about next year's Kings record then continue what we are doing.
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out in several posts in this thread, Good centers are VERY difficult to find. Trouble is centers rarely come out of college ready to compete at the NBA level. For every Tim Duncan that comes out of college, you have 100 or so Michael Olowokandis. Most of the time you have to develop good centers from raw rookies into accomplished NBA players. That process seems to be totally different for every player. Look at Andrew Bogut! He was labeled a bust after only a coupla years, but they continued to groom him and he continued to work hard and prepare himself to compete in the NBA and now he is at or near an all star level.
We have 2 bigs in JT and Hawes who have the ability through hard work and training to become good centers in the NBA. It is SO HARD to be patient as fans, but Hawes may very well become a serviceable center IF he continues to work hard. That means working out every summer to get stronger and learning footwork and tricks of the trade to become good. At this point, I believe Hawes is making progress but it is very slow.
JT is making progress, but he has issues unrelated to basketball that are stunting his growth. His attitude toward the Refs is really making it difficult for him to play because he has pissed off just about every Ref and he doesn't get any calls. He complains to the Refs even when they make a GOOD CALL! If he were to go a complete year without complaining to a ref no matter how bad the call was, it would go a long way toward improving his relationship with the refs and he would start to see some calls go his way. He has the strength and the attitude to become a very good inside player. He needs to become a bit more polished with his post moves and learn to move his feet on defense instead of reaching with his hands.
So I do believe a good center could turn this team around. AND that center might already BE on the roster. If we are patient, Hawes or Thompson may very well have a breakout year soon and become the inside force we need to succeed as a team! That wont preclude Petrie from drafting another BIG this draft to see if they can get more depth in the front court. If anyone knows about the development of players and talent, it is Geoff Petrie. I trust Petrie to know what is best for this team!
p.s. I would totally take Brook Lopez in a heartbeat! A player like that would be the answer to our rebounding and interior defense issues!
We have 2 bigs in JT and Hawes who have the ability through hard work and training to become good centers in the NBA. It is SO HARD to be patient as fans, but Hawes may very well become a serviceable center IF he continues to work hard. That means working out every summer to get stronger and learning footwork and tricks of the trade to become good. At this point, I believe Hawes is making progress but it is very slow.
JT is making progress, but he has issues unrelated to basketball that are stunting his growth. His attitude toward the Refs is really making it difficult for him to play because he has pissed off just about every Ref and he doesn't get any calls. He complains to the Refs even when they make a GOOD CALL! If he were to go a complete year without complaining to a ref no matter how bad the call was, it would go a long way toward improving his relationship with the refs and he would start to see some calls go his way. He has the strength and the attitude to become a very good inside player. He needs to become a bit more polished with his post moves and learn to move his feet on defense instead of reaching with his hands.
So I do believe a good center could turn this team around. AND that center might already BE on the roster. If we are patient, Hawes or Thompson may very well have a breakout year soon and become the inside force we need to succeed as a team! That wont preclude Petrie from drafting another BIG this draft to see if they can get more depth in the front court. If anyone knows about the development of players and talent, it is Geoff Petrie. I trust Petrie to know what is best for this team!
p.s. I would totally take Brook Lopez in a heartbeat! A player like that would be the answer to our rebounding and interior defense issues!
Last edited:
