The nuts and bolts of the Martin trade

[Superman]

Biggest deadline day deal since 2005. And, ironically, the last "movable piece" was waived as the deadline passed. Is "ironic" the right word there? How about depressing, maddening, laughable... ? Help me out there.

Anyways, so, after weeks of speculation, the Kings are able to put together a blockbuster nine player deal involving two other teams that sends their best scorer to the Houston Rockets to be reunited with his first NBA coach, who also happens to be the Kings winningest coach of all time, Rick Adelman. Kevin Martin is in good hands, no doubt. Coming to the Kings are former Rockets forwards Carl Landry and Joey Dorsey, and guard Larry Hughes from the Knicks. Landry is a leading Sixth Man of the Year candidate, averaging over 16 points in just 27 minutes a game, and is known as a physical hustle player who can score well around the rim.

So, for Kings fans, is this a good trade or not? The basics, from RealGM.com's Trade Checker:

Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -1.3 ppg, +3.6 rpg, and -2.0 apg.

Incoming Players:

Carl Landry
6-8 PF from Purdue
16.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 0.8 apg in 27.2 minutes

Joey Dorsey
6-9 PF from Memphis
1.6 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 7.8 minutes

Larry Hughes
6-5 SG from St. Louis
9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3.5 apg in 26.4 minutes

Outgoing Players:

Kevin Martin
6-7 SG from Western Carolina
19.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.2 minutes

Hilton Armstrong
6-10 C from Connecticut
2.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.9 apg in 13.3 minutes

Sergio Rodriguez
6-3 PG from Spain (Foreign)
6.0 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 3.1 apg in 13.3 minutes

Trade ID #5483663

The payroll changes for the Kings are significant. Kevin Martin is owed $36 million over the next three years, and Armstrong and Rodriguez would have had qualifying sheets worth a total of about $7 million for next season, so the Kings got rid of a total of $43 million in payroll after this year. They took back Landry and Dorsey, both of whom have team options for next season at $3 million and $940,000, respectively. Expect the Kings to pick up Landry's option, for sure. So, going forward, the Kings have a net savings of about $39 million from this trade, not considering future contracts for either Landry or Dorsey. This trade is projected to put the Kings close to $20 million under the salary cap next season, which could be enough to lure a big name from the fertile crop of free agents this summer.

In the immediate, taking back what's left of Larry Hughes' $13.6 million salary for this season might be kind of sour. A later trade for the Wizards Dominic McGuire forced the Kings to release a player to meet league guidelines. That player was none other than Kenny Thomas, the lone remaining reminder of the blockbuster trade that saw Chris Webber leave the Kings just before the trade deadline in 2005.

(Side note: There are so many reports floating around about these deals, some of which are based on earlier news and haven't been updated since yesterday, so it's been difficult to track down the exact terms of the deal, and it hasn't been posted on NBA.com yet. If there's anything that isn't correct about the terms above, I'll fix it as soon as the deal is finalized.)

So, what do you think about this deal? I get the feeling Kings fans are torn on it. Hard to part with a good guy like Martin, even if he had his shortcomings. Having budding star Tyreke Evans on the roster makes this deal possible, and somewhat palatable. And Landry is a nice player, but that's it. He's not going to make a bad team good, that's for sure. I think the only fair way to judge this deal is to see what the Kings do with their cap space this summer, and then it will be more evident what they really got in return for their number one scoring threat.

 

[LWP777]

I would have traded Martin straight up for Landry. The cap space this summer is just a bonus.

 

[Merdiesel]

Can you add an option for 'we'll see after this off season"

 

[Superman]

No fence straddling. Yes or no.

Edit: Don't worry, it's not a public poll. If this summer doesn't go how you expect, just say you voted the other way.

 

[VF21]

I would have liked to see the options just be "Yes" or "No" as while I'm voting yes, it's not about free agency.

But that's just me. I'm somewhat of a poll purist who believes qualifiers are merely attempts to get people to see a certain point of view. And that stems from a psychology class I took many years ago at American River College.

 

[Superman]

I would have liked to see the options just be "Yes" or "No" as while I'm voting yes, it's not about free agency.

But that's just me. I'm somewhat of a poll purist who believes qualifiers are merely attempts to get people to see a certain point of view. And that stems from a psychology class I took many years ago at American River College.

You're getting verrrrrry sleepy....

 

[Vlade4GM]

I really doubt we get anything worthwhile in free agency.

 

[Merdiesel]

No fence straddling. Yes or no.

Ok, I went with NO.

Petrie hasn't proved in years that he can make a good FA signing so if I'm comparing the two main pieces here... Martin >>> Landry.

 

[Merdiesel]

I would have liked to see the options just be "Yes" or "No" as while I'm voting yes, it's not about free agency.

But that's just me. I'm somewhat of a poll purist who believes qualifiers are merely attempts to get people to see a certain point of view. And that stems from a psychology class I took many years ago at American River College.

So you would have been good with Kevin Martin for Carl Landry straight up?..

 

[NME]

Our best scorer? Wait, we traded Tyreke!?!

 

[xrzn]

I want to vote for yes but I don't know if I agree with the "it will help us get better in free agency" part. That is a possibility when the time comes, but for now, this is addition by subtraction. The logjam at the SG/SF spot opens up for Donte and Casspi. Reke's game will continue to improve and Westphal doesn't have to force the Reke/Martin backcourt.

Oh yeah, Landry looks and sounds like a decent player.

 

[VF21]

You're getting verrrrrry sleepy....

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

 

[Superman]

Ok, I went with NO.

Petrie hasn't proved in years that he can make a good FA signing so if I'm comparing the two main pieces here... Martin >>> Landry.

I'll give you Martin > than Landry, but not three >'s. And once you throw in the salaries, I think I'd do Martin for Landry considering Martin makes $12 million a year, while Landry makes $3 million a year, and he's technically a big man.

If Petrie blows it this summer, then that's a different story.

 

[Henkel]

I voted no. We traded a good starter for a good bench/border line starter. Kevin was not a fit for this team, but Kevin is a proven quality starter. Landry is a better fit for this team just not the type of player that will have a huge impact in my opinion. Landry isn't the defender or low post threat some people are making him out to be. For me the value we got doesn't match what we gave up. Its really that simple for me.

I don't think this was a terrible move and if things come together in free agency this move could end up as a good deal. At the moment I'm just underwhelmed.

 

[Merdiesel]

I'll give you Martin > than Landry, but not three >'s. And once you throw in the salaries, I think I'd do Martin for Landry considering Martin makes $12 million a year, while Landry makes $3 million a year, and he's technically a big man.

If Petrie blows it this summer, then that's a different story.

]


That is a massive if in my opinion.

 

[ParniValjak]

So you would have been good with Kevin Martin for Carl Landry straight up?..

Its not straight up we also get big enough space in the cap room to at least be a big players in the FA. Even if we don't get a FA we still have a lot of possibilities in trade world precisely due to the cap room.

We get under KMart's contract which could have very quickly become very pricey if his production continued to hover around his current levels.

 

[Merdiesel]

Its not straight up we also get big enough space in the cap room to at least be a big players in the FA. Even if we don't get a FA we still have a lot of possibilities in trade world precisely due to the cap room.

We get under KMart's contract which could have very quickly become very pricey if his production continued to hover around his current levels.

You're late to the party...
Read VF's post.

 

[K F Jay]

I want to vote for yes but I don't know if I agree with the "it will help us get better in free agency" part. That is a possibility when the time comes, but for now, this is addition by subtraction. The logjam at the SG/SF spot opens up for Donte and Casspi. Reke's game will continue to improve and Westphal doesn't have to force the Reke/Martin backcourt.

Oh yeah, Landry looks and sounds like a decent player.

Does it? We still have a log jam.

Garcia/Hughes avg. 26 mpg in NY/Udoka/Beno - when on the floor with Reke.
Omri/Donte/Nocioni/McGuire

Nocioni moves back to playing the 3/4 with the addition of our new frontcourt players. Westphaul occasionally plays our vets for long stretches. Garcia needs to play because he is going to be our best utility player. McGuire is still a ?.

 

[NME]

There's no way Hughes is going to see any kind of significant court time

 

[jimbodan]

Right now I don't like it. We didn't get enough for Martin and somehow managed to get absolutely nothing for KT's expiring, in an age where large expiring contracts are worth a lot. We also weren't able to move Nocioni's terrible deal.

I'm not sold on Landry, I see him as a good 6th man not much more. He doesn't rebound well and doesn't play great defense and on top of that he is undersized. IMO you don't trade your border-line all star SG for a 6th man. I do agree with most people here though that getting rid of him was necessary, he just doesn't mesh well with the current team, that being said though when healthy he is still a very good NBA player better then Landry.

I highly doubt we will be able to do anything good with the cap space, lots of better teams or teams in better markets have been clearing space like crazy for this off season and I just can't see why any top tier FA's would choose Sac over one of those other teams. Right now I predict we end up overpaying significantly for David Lee as a "best case" scenario with our cap space which would continue out trend of not playing defense.

We should have taken on Jefferies and gotten either Hill and a 1# from NYK or else tried for 2 1#'s from them. With the impending lockout and high likliehood of different salary cap rules coming soon I'd prefer to stock up on draft picks and clear cap room for 2011 or 2012. Or else just waited until draft day or the off-season to deal Martin.

If we can somehow manage to land a star with the cap space then of course my opinion will change.

 

[Gary]

Right now I don't like it. We didn't get enough for Martin and somehow managed to get absolutely nothing for KT's expiring, in an age where large expiring contracts are worth a lot. We also weren't able to move Nocioni's terrible deal.

I'm not sold on Landry, I see him as a good 6th man not much more. He doesn't rebound well and doesn't play great defense and on top of that he is undersized. IMO you don't trade your border-line all star SG for a 6th man. I do agree with most people here though that getting rid of him was necessary, he just doesn't mesh well with the current team, that being said though when healthy he is still a very good NBA player better then Landry.

I highly doubt we will be able to do anything good with the cap space, lots of better teams or teams in better markets have been clearing space like crazy for this off season and I just can't see why any top tier FA's would choose Sac over one of those other teams. Right now I predict we end up overpaying significantly for David Lee as a "best case" scenario with our cap space which would continue out trend of not playing defense.

We should have taken on Jefferies and gotten either Hill and a 1# from NYK or else tried for 2 1#'s from them. With the impending lockout and high likliehood of different salary cap rules coming soon I'd prefer to stock up on draft picks and clear cap room for 2011 or 2012. Or else just waited until draft day or the off-season to deal Martin.

If we can somehow manage to land a star with the cap space then of course my opinion will change.

You are uninformed on Landry's game.. He plays great defense for his size.. VERY tough defender. But you are right about one thing.. He's a 6th man, and we wouldn't be using him correct if we thought he could start. His game is all about energy and giving him more than 30mins a night is just not the right thing to do with a player like him.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Right now I don't like it. We didn't get enough for Martin and somehow managed to get absolutely nothing for KT's expiring, in an age where large expiring contracts are worth a lot. We also weren't able to move Nocioni's terrible deal.

Although he wound up not part of the final deal, this probably wouldn't have happened without KT. He was part of the deal which forced NY to accept Houston's original demands, so we wound up nixing him from the deal. Had it happened a day earlier we may have moved KT. However with the addition of Hughes we now have a lot more room to make a more sensible deal in the summer after we can evaluate just what we have in Landry.

I don't see us moving Noc, we should probably just buy him out. But it might be worth waiting this next year to see if the new CBA gives us more favorable terms to release him.

 

[jimbodan]

You are uninformed on Landry's game.. He plays great defense for his size.. VERY tough defender. But you are right about one thing.. He's a 6th man, and we wouldn't be using him correct if we thought he could start. His game is all about energy and giving him more than 30mins a night is just not the right thing to do with a player like him.

I am not uninformed on his game? I think you might be the one that doesn't understand his game. He is not a GREAT defender, he is average at best. Yes he tries hard but that doesn't equal great defense, talk to JT about that. He is undersized and gets shot over all the time by bigger PF's. He isn't that great of an on ball defender, but he is solid as a help defender. If you honestly think he is a great defender I don't even know what to say. Even the Houston fans that love him regularly concede that he is one of their worst defense players, now granted a bad defensive player on their team is probably better then a good defender on our team, since our defense is so terrible.

 

[dbfish]

There's no way Hughes is going to see any kind of significant court time

It wouldn't surprise me if they release Hughes ala KT.

 

[PassFirst]

Although he wound up not part of the final deal, this probably wouldn't have happened without KT. He was part of the deal which forced NY to accept Houston's original demands, so we wound up nixing him from the deal. Had it happened a day earlier we may have moved KT. However with the addition of Hughes we now have a lot more room to make a more sensible deal in the summer after we can evaluate just what we have in Landry.

I don't see us moving Noc, we should probably just buy him out. But it might be worth waiting this next year to see if the new CBA gives us more favorable terms to release him.

though he isnt a great defender he is a good one, he's definitely better than thompson. I'm still shocked by the trade, who here actually thought that a trade like this was going to go down? i was completely floored by the news that my rockets traded landry and mcgrady for martin and all of the knicks table scraps. i cant wait until saturdays game against the pacers. im sure you guys cant wait until saturdays kings/clippers game.

 

[Prince_XY]

I am not uninformed on his game? I think you might be the one that doesn't understand his game. He is not a GREAT defender, he is average at best. Yes he tries hard but that doesn't equal great defense, talk to JT about that. He is undersized and gets shot over all the time by bigger PF's. He isn't that great of an on ball defender, but he is solid as a help defender. If you honestly think he is a great defender I don't even know what to say. Even the Houston fans that love him regularly concede that he is one of their worst defense players, now granted a bad defensive player on their team is probably better then a good defender on our team, since our defense is so terrible.

And that would be the best reason why he got picked up by Petrie. If he is a great defender, I now have the tendency to think he wouldn't even be considered by Petrie. It is all about offensive players in this team, especially outside shooting players. That is the top priority of Petrie and most of the time seems the only priority.

And I think Paul Westphal is getting what Petrie wants to do too. Watch the second quarter of that game when we got blown by 30 points against the Warriors and you'll know what I am saying.

The culture should go on.

 

[Gary]

I am not uninformed on his game? I think you might be the one that doesn't understand his game. He is not a GREAT defender, he is average at best. Yes he tries hard but that doesn't equal great defense, talk to JT about that. He is undersized and gets shot over all the time by bigger PF's. He isn't that great of an on ball defender, but he is solid as a help defender. If you honestly think he is a great defender I don't even know what to say. Even the Houston fans that love him regularly concede that he is one of their worst defense players, now granted a bad defensive player on their team is probably better then a good defender on our team, since our defense is so terrible.

We will have to disagree then.. He's a pretty damn good defender for his size.. Haven't watched him a lot this year.. Maybe 5-7 games. Houston doesn't interest me much. Anyhow, he does play good defense. At least that's how I feel.

I think I might have misunderstood you though.. When you said "not a great defender" I took it as you thought he was a bad defender. My bad.

 

[VF21]

And that would be the best reason why he got picked up by Petrie. If he is a great defender, I now have the tendency to think he wouldn't even be considered by Petrie. It is all about offensive players in this team, especially outside shooting players. That is the top priority of Petrie and most of the time seems the only priority.

And I think Paul Westphal is getting what Petrie wants to do too. Watch the second quarter of that game when we got blown by 30 points against the Warriors and you'll know what I am saying.

The culture should go on.

There are times when a post is so full of ridiculous comments and plain wrong thinking, that it's pretty much impossible to know where to start in trying to point out all of said failings. This is one of those cases... so I won't even try. I'll just respect your right to your opinion.

 

[bajaden]

And that would be the best reason why he got picked up by Petrie. If he is a great defender, I now have the tendency to think he wouldn't even be considered by Petrie. It is all about offensive players in this team, especially outside shooting players. That is the top priority of Petrie and most of the time seems the only priority.

And I think Paul Westphal is getting what Petrie wants to do too. Watch the second quarter of that game when we got blown by 30 points against the Warriors and you'll know what I am saying.

The culture should go on.

You know, I was going to make a comment, which I guess technicaly this is, but I'm not sure how to comment on something so illogical. I looked for the smilely face, thinking it was a joke. I thought maybe I should try and edit it for you in case you forgot, but then I'm not a mod. Then I realized it was late at night, and I'm tired, and none of this is real....

 

[Uncia03]

Last night when the news broke I was in support of the trade, as it seemed that Geoff became the broker for McGrady's expiring contract.

I had hoped that we might be able to get a better offer than what NY was selling for that massive 23million expiring.


As things unfolded today, it became clear that we would only have held the rights to McGrady if we were willing to take on Jefferies contract and make the NY deal.

---------

I want to touch upon that for a moment, as that seems to be a source of conflicting opinions.

The question is: Are we better off with KT+Hughes expirings this season or would it have been better to get Jefferies, Hill, & Hughes and a potential swap of the 2011 pick and the 2012 pick?

To put some clarity on that I want to look at the salaries of each of the players to see how much it would have cost for us to get Hill and have the rights to that extra 2012 pick.

Jefferies: 2.3m + 6.9m (Remainder of this year and next year)
Hill: 0.9m + 2.7m (Remainder of this year and next year)
Hughes: 4.9m (Remainder of this year)
KT : 3.1m (Remainder of this year)

The Kings opted for the KT/Hughes expiring scenario. You can see that it cost them a total of 8m to keep them both on the payroll for the remainder of the year.

Had the Kings taken the option of the Jefferies/Hill contract they would have paid 11.2m this season and 9.6m next season.

So the question is simple:

Is Jordan Hill + the option to swap picks in 2011 + the NY 1st Pick worth an additional 12.8 million dollars?

In my mind the answer is an easy 'No'.

I had mentioned last night that if we did end up with: Hawes, JT, Brockman, Landry, Dorsey, Jefferies, and Hill that we'd probably be better off trying to make another deal as we'd have a glut of young big men on the team. And there is a good chance that we'd not even have enough minutes available to really try and develop Hill. (You have to admit that Houston needs a big man like Hill far more than we do. Now if Hill were a defensive stopper then that would be a different story)

We desperately need a quality defensive big on our team, and I think that will be the primary focus for us in the draft. So if we end up picking a very high draft Big it even makes bringing on Hill less of a good move on our part as we simply don't have the minutes available to help develop all of these young bigs.

So I would not have paid over 12 million for Hill and basically a 2012 draft pick.

So I was very, very pleased to see that we didn't take on that extra salary from New York.

---------

Now ultimately I believe that this trade was a good one for all the reasons that everyone's mentioned. (Glut at wing spot, played better when Kevin wasn't in rotation, ect.)

I had also hoped that we'd be able to get a bigger name Big for Kevin, but upon reflection I think that Landry is going to work very well. I would have been in favor of trading Kevin for Al Jefferson. And what Al Jefferson brought more than anything else was post scoring. Though he isn't the defensive big I wanted, he brought enough post-offense to where I think he'd work well with the Kings.

Landry should be able to bring that post-scoring that the team desperately needs and the primary thing to keep in mind is that he comes at 1/4th the cost of Al Jefferson. He doesn't bring the rebounding that Jefferson does, but he brings far more energy and toughness.

So considering how much he costs, what he brings translates to being a very good player which can do things that will have an immediate impact in making this team better.

Along with everyone else, I'm hoping that the Geoff is able to use all this capspace wisely next year. I'd rather not see any move made rather than a bad signing, so we'll just have to see how things play out before evaluating this deal further.