Do Kevin and Reke have problems??

Bricklayer · Jan 19, 2010

You know, I had halfway started a semi-lengthy post about how I doubted there were problems so soon after all the feel good touchy feely really looking forward to it quotes before Kevin's return, then I went and read the article and the quotes in question. And I would have to agree that it sounds like at the very least there is frustration, and even a bit of "whatever, man" going on.

Thing is that Reke is right -- Kevin seems to still be carrying a cartoonish zombie cloud of grey depressin over his head from last season, and it seems to have settled over the rest of the team. Tyreke is a competitor, he sees the difference, feels the lack of chemistry right now, and I think legitimately he doesn't get it. That doesn't mean they are at each other's throats, but it does mean that you can already see in those quotes the beginning of doubt about the situation.

M_Barragan · Jan 19, 2010

AriesMar27 said:

Nah brah... we desperately needed a star... and we got one. Saying Tyreke has suspect court vision is suspect. There is a difference between having suspect court vision and being an aggressive scorer.

Tyreke has created many passes that show he has adequate vision to play PG full-time. It's not even about that. It's about this team trying to create a physical mismatch on the court... that has always been a goal. A guy stronger then any PG... hell stronger then most if not all SG's yet able to guard the PG position and the SG position.

Tyreke is coming along nicely... just this last game he was getting everyone open shots... nobody was making anything.

Game is 98-100 down by two tyreke grabs the ball and pushes it with noci following. Tyreke takes it to the rack and attracts all the defense and drops it of to noci under the rim... he blew the wide open layup which brock tipped in and was called offensive interference... He hardly takes it himself all the time... but seeing his teammates miss open layups time after time has to get in your head no?

Have you watched this team play bro... u do realize both Hawes and JT have a great talent in blowing wide open layups. ONe is too soft n throws it up scared not to get it blocked. The other has less touch then an amputee at the elbow.

VF21 · Jan 19, 2010

Bricklayer said:

Without getting into the particulars of the article in question, I would just like to remind people that quotes in a newspaper article are often taken out of context. In addition, they can be easily manipulated to serve the agenda of the person writing the article... Not accusing anyone of anything at this point, but if this were being done, it certainly wouldn't be the first time the Bee has tried to stir things up.

Just sayin...

rainmaker · Jan 19, 2010

VF21 said:

True, but if I'm not mistaken, the quotes were from an article by Amick. Amick is one of the biggest Kevin supporters out there, so I doubt after only 3 games Amick would be writing an article with the intent of swaying public opinion against Kevin.

We might be reading too much into this. But there is one thing I will point out, and that is that I haven't heard anyone on the team come out and say how happy they are to have Kevin back. Most of the statements I have heard revolve around "we will be a better team down the road with Kevin", and "we all have to adjust to him being out there". The guys could truly believe that, or they could just be saying the right things publicly. I don't know at this point. But the body language of the other guys doesn't look the same, and Kevins personality on the court doesn't seem to fit in with the peronality this team has taken on.

I love Kevin and where he has come from as a player. No one thought he would be this good. And I'm not blaming this situation on him. I'm not certain we even have a situation here, because its only been 3 games. But the warning signs are there...

AriesMar27 · Jan 19, 2010

M_Barragan said:

ive watched the games, i actually watch them twice... thats the best part about league pass the games come back on 30 minutes after it ends... i really should start taking my own advice and use more smilies when i talk about evans. everyone is under the assumption that i just hate him. i dont, i understand that he is a special player but unless we trade martin.

thompson and hawes are not the players we need starting if we plan on winning games any time soon. every year we get a new rookie and we have posters saying that we have to wait 2-3 years... its been 4 years... thompson or hawes needs to be coming off of the bench until they are ready. thats why we have so many threads about trading for players like jefferson, okafor and dalembert.

Kingsguy881 · Jan 19, 2010

AriesMar27 said:

ive watched the games, i actually watch them twice... thats the best part about league pass the games come back on 30 minutes after it ends... i really should start taking my own advice and use more smilies when i talk about evans. everyone is under the assumption that i just hate him. i dont, i understand that he is a special player but unless we trade martin.

thompson and hawes are not the players we need starting if we plan on winning games any time soon. every year we get a new rookie and we have posters saying that we have to wait 2-3 years... its been 4 years... thompson or hawes needs to be coming off of the bench until they are ready. thats why we have so many threads about trading for players like jefferson, okafor and dalembert.

Ok, you don't hate him, you just don't like him and would rather have Rubio. Fair enough?

kingzfan · Jan 19, 2010

so most of you want to trade kevin? what happens when tyreke leaves and goes to a big market...what makes you all think he is going to resign with sac? i just kinda want to know, because there is a realistic chance of that.

venom_7 · Jan 19, 2010

FakeInjury said:

Technically neither is ready to run an entire offense. SO in theory, together they should be able to compete at a high level. The problems occur when tyreke finishes at the basket. Martin's ego is hurt because he was the finisher last year(even thought he rarely finished in traffic). Then Martin will take 2-3 ill advised jumpshots, and tyreke takes mental note that the veteran team leader is basically jerking off 4 no reason, and then tyreke decides he should shoot a couple three's. and before we know the kings have lost 6-7 possessions during the course of the half, due to Martin's ego.

Yeah, that is it exactly.

*sigh*

I'm not even going to bother.

BMiller52 · Jan 19, 2010

kingzfan said:

No there isn't. This was the team he wanted to come play for when he entered the draft, and we'd have his restricted FA rights to match any offer when he's a FA anyway. Sigh, I wish more people knew about the rules and stuff of the CBA.

pdxKingsFan · Jan 19, 2010

kingzfan said:

Then I guess we better hurry up and get the pieces in place to win with Tyreke while he's here.

kingzfan · Jan 19, 2010

BMiller52 said:

thats fine..but i just dont know why eveyrone all the sudden has all this hatered for kevin?..he has played 3 games after being out for 9 weeks? if this is still going on at the end of the season..then fine something needs to be changed..but people act like he has been ruining the kings this past 3 games, when we have sucked on the road all year...people need to just chill and give this team time to mesh again..its not like kevin came back and ruined our championship run or even playoff run for that matter...everyone just needs to give them team time to play together and martin to get healthy again before they start trading him off.

pdxKingsFan · Jan 19, 2010

Most people don't hate Kevin, they just like what has been going on this season and see that Kevin has been out and may actually have value on the market. While it is fun to speculate how we can turn Beno and Noc into an all-star front court that has no basis on reality, Kevin however may attract some interest from teams that have the opposite problem we do.

AriesMar27 · Jan 19, 2010

Kingsguy881 said:

i dont even dislike evans... i just wanted a pg that can run the team to its max... rubio was the type of pg that would be exciting to watch and would help set up martin, thompson and hawes... the threat of him passing to an open player that the defender cant see is just as deadly as a jumpshot. defending the pass opens up shots for other players. there is a reason why jason kidd and andre miller have been successful without a reliable jumpshot, their passes resulted in 2 or 3 points for a player that would struggle to average 10 points on their own.

we needed an identity, his style of play alone would give us that. just like any team lead by a pg of that mold, nash, paul, kidd... we know whats going to happen the minute that they step on the court... everyone will score more with them than they did without... kidd made kenyon martin an all-star. paul made west an all-star. nash made marion an all-star... who will rubio make into an all-star? i dont know, the twolves suck.... but on this team you cant tell me that you wouldnt be drooling over the idea of a 2-man game like that.

we dont have that with tyreke, he is just a force of nature all by himself... honestly, i would love for evans and martin to work out like that but i just dont see it happening. ive watched martin his entire career here and i watched some of evans in college and most of his games with the kings... they dont have the style of play that meshes well together...

if we trade for a player that can play with tyreke you wont ever hear me talking negatively about him. but we dont have that player and the teams front office is trying to run this gimmicky offense to sell the idea that it will work. it wont. they play the same position. since evans will more than likely be a much better player than martin, he needs to be moved. garcia isnt that player either. he's a energy/hustle player, he should be coming off of the bench playing defense and occasionally hitting an open three.

we need a pg that can play off the ball... bibby wouldve been awesome back in his prime, though his defense is horrible. ramon sessions would be a nice player to put next to tyreke, he can play off the ball and is a big pg who can run an offense. a young derek fisher would be perfect. we need a player that can feed off of tyrekes doubles and make the extra pass to dish to other players. man i watch way to many laker games.... i know that damn offense to a science. we should run the triangle, too bad rambis isnt the coach. granted he is sucking in minny, mainly because kahn is an idiot.

we have the personnel that could run the triangle to perfection and we wouldnt have the evans/martin problem. i officially blame westphal... my bad tyreke... its not your fault, you are what you are... its the coaches fault for not being good enough to coach you.

pshn80 · Jan 19, 2010

Kings now have about 14 or 15 players. I think better use could be made of them at the moment. Guards 1 and 2: Evans isn't the ideal distributing point guard but he is a star already - he must play; Martin isn't a distributing player at all but he can score; Udrih is better at distributing than either; play more of Udrih and less of Martin, no matter who starts, and play Evans as much as you can and not wear him out.

Forward, small: play the three we have to our best advantage. In other words, go with the coaches.

Power forward and center: for now use more of Armstrong and Brockman, thus limiting Hawes and JT further.

The rest have to take pot luck.

Let Hawes, Thompson and Martin get more time on the court as they deserve it and as the team's success warrants it.

Coach did a little of this in yesterday's game but only as a second thought. Start it tomorrow and use it until it fails OR wins games.

Andre87 · Jan 19, 2010

Kevin really needs to step away and become a certified 2nd option on offense - that what he really is.
He is a great catch & shoot player, cuts great off the ball and he should stick just to that. Similar to Rip Hamilton's role on the Pistons a few years ago. There's really no need for him to create smth for himself or others with Tyreke around.

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

AriesMar27 said:

there is a huge difference between someone like nash and tyreke... no one was denying that nash is a pg and that he could pass, shoot and handle the ball with relative ease. his problem, if thats what you want to call it was that he played behind jason kidd... evans doesnt have that problem. he has a shaky jumpshot and suspect court vision... he is a great scorer and ball handler but that doesnt make him a pg. if you were to describe evans to a person that had never seen him that person would think that you were talking about a future stud sg. not a pg in any way, shape or form...

the only reason he is played at pg is because petrie is too much of a wuss to come out and say that martin is expendable. if evans were a pg he wouldnt have any issues playing with martin because martin sure as hell isnt a pg. we have 2 starting sg's on this team, one of them will have to go... sorry martin. evans can score just as much but costs less than half as much.

we should trade martin and beno to the twolves for jefferson and sessions.

There is more truth to this post than most of us would like to believe. Bottom line, if we didn't have a 2 guard as the star of this team (Martin) would it even be a discussion.

FakeInjury · Jan 19, 2010

I like Kevin Martin, but i don't like his body of work on the court. While his three point percentage is high, ~85% of those threes are no pressure because we already lost the game. His finishing ability is suspect, and when the whistle doesn't blow, he flat out can't finish near or above the rim. His quickness is soft, he has chops, but he is like a speed skater who cant stop(see D2 the mighty ducks). I like Kevin Martin, but his body of work doesn't rank among most NBA starters. Kevin Martin<James Posey<Richard Hamilton today. That will all be reversed in a couple years, because KM23 has alot of upside and a relatively high ceiling, so if you want to stick with him, its not a bad move. I like him, for his upside.

AriesMar27 · Jan 19, 2010

sdballer said:

our problem with martin is that he is much better than he is supposed to be. if he were on the same level as garcia we wouldnt be having this issue. garcia is a roleplayer... martin is a legit starting nba quality sg. he is one of the biggest steals in recent draft history. tyreke is right where he should be, we all knew that he would be good. if martin played any other position we wouldnt be having this discussion. thats why so many fans want to see him at sf, we all know what the problem is.... you cant have 2 sg's in a starting lineup. 2 pf's, easy... just like how 2 pgs dont work, 2 sgs cant work either. its like oil and water...

the grizzlies got lucky with the fact that gay can play sf... because mayo couldnt handle pg fulltime. we dont have that luxury with martin, though i think that evans could play sf... he has the size and strength to play the position. he just doesnt have a reliable jumpshot....

Bricklayer · Jan 19, 2010

AriesMar27 said:

The war is lost and yet you do continue to prattle. Oddly nobody else on the team seemed to be struiggling with Reke as a PG until Kevin returned. And you know what? Kevin isn't, or wasn't particualrly struggling wiht Reke as a PG either. Nor has Reke badly struggled with Kevin as an OG. It is everybody ELSE who is suffering. And they haven't been all season while Reke has run the show alone.

pdxKingsFan · Jan 19, 2010

Bricklayer said:

The war is lost and yet you do continue to prattle. Oddly nobody else on the team seemed to be struiggling with Reke as a PG until Kevin returned. And you know what? Kevin isn't, or wasn't particualrly struggling wiht Reke as a PG either. Nor has Reke badly struggled with Kevin as an OG. It is everybody ELSE who is suffering. And they haven't been all season while Reke has run the show alone.

And who says Kevin can't play defense?

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

pdxKingsFan said:

Every opponent that scores on him.

Kingsguy881 · Jan 19, 2010

pdxKingsFan said:

Kevin does with his play.

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

Bricklayer said:

Not sure I agree. We played at a much higher level than last year but I wouldn't say our offense was running totally smoothly. The guys that could create their own shots were ok but the offense didn't flow. We just scrapped and played hard, which was great to see.

It's funny that after the last few years we've set the bar so low that we get blinded as fans to some of the team's shortfalls. Kevin's return has highlighted a lot of issues but they were already here. Changes need to be made to continue the transition towards greatness and unfortunately, we won't get there just by moving guys we're happy to see go (Noc, May, Thomas).

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

Kingsguy881 said:

Apparently that one was a little too easy

venom_7 · Jan 19, 2010

kingzfan said:

First off, welcome to the board. Secondly, Tyreke is going to be here for 4 years MINIMUM. And with a new venue on the horizon, a rabid, involved fanbase, and some of the most player-friendly owners in the league, I don't think he is moving on past that. That being said, the pieces we have down the line will play a huge role in his decision. We just have to do a better job than Cleveland is with Bron. A trigger happy PG and an 80 year old Shaq probably won't get you a ring.

The best thing we have going here is that EVERYONE is young and this team has a chance to grow together. It will be expensive one day, just not yet.

Bricklayer · Jan 19, 2010

pdxKingsFan said:

Almost a separate issue methinks at this point. An important one, but separate.

Kevin never displays any visible fire, never has, and right now its seems to have spread and thrown a wet blanket over everybody else's fire too. I would never say Kevin has a cancerous personality, but his effect has been exactly the one you fear from a cancer -- its not just he who isn't getting it done, everybody else is pulled down as well. Everybody is playing like Kevin, rather than Kevin playing like everybody else.

Adn I again have to ask, why are we doing this? Things were going good. Our young team was competing and learning and growing. It had certian obvious needs. A one dimensional energy sap at SG was not one of them. And now we have thrown uncertainty and doubt into a season that was about hope. Why?

Bricklayer · Jan 19, 2010

sdballer said:

I will again mention that we have been one of the Top 6 or 7 teams in the league in scoring this season, and that without a single reliable inside scoring presence. I think what has happened has actually been Kings fans being unrealistic about what a smooth flowing offense looks like. Especially for a rookie team. This team, this year, has been scoring more points than most of our glory years teams, who I would think are considered smooth offensive teams. In fact its been about the #3 outift in the league who isn't a run n gun junkball outfit. So if this isn't smooth, I'm not sure I want smooth.

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

Bricklayer said:

When defenses clamp down, when the 3s aren't falling, we fall apart offensively. You start to see more 1on1 play, more wild drives, posting up guys that don't have that ability, etc. Part of it is being young and part of it has to do with not having a great offensive set up.

We do score a lot, but I think as teams realize how to stop us, that we will realize the offense needs better balance, better use of its players, etc.

sdballer · Jan 19, 2010

sdballer said:

To better illustrate my point, we're 8th in the league in scoring, but 20th in assists/game, 4th in most turnovers, and 13th in FG%.

Kingsguy881 · Jan 19, 2010

sdballer said:

That looks more like the hallmark of a young, inexperienced and very promising team to me, than anything else.

Do Kevin and Reke have problems??

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