Starting at the 3?

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#61
I have to agree with most of Bricky's points. This team has started to create and idenity, and its not hard to see what that idenity is. So the question is, at least in my mind, is not whether Martin can just fit in, but, can he help establish that idenity.

There are three possiblilites as far as I'm concerned. One, he comes back and doesn't fit at all and actually disrupts the chemistry of the team. Two, he comes back and fits in without disrupting the team, but has no noticable effect on the outcome of the games. Three, he comes back and helps make the team even tougher by sacrificing some of his offense and playing tough defense.

Yeah, I know! I left out the part about his scoring 25 points a game. Well, thats contained in the first two senario's. You can score 25 points and still have no effect on the eventual outcome of the game. My point is, that if Martins offense doesn't translate into more wins for the team, then its of little value, especially since I believe the team is fifth in the league in scoring right now. Scoring isn't the problem for this team. Stopping the other team from scoring is the problem.

My third senario is the least likely to my mind. Not impossible, but I would be shocked if it occurred. I guess a fourth senario would be Martin comes back and is willing to play the roll of a support player. Becomes perhaps, even the third option at times. Realizes that he may be on the bench in favor of either Greene or Udoka for defensive purposes at crunch time.

Make no mistake, I like Martin. I would love for him to fit in. My gut tells me it won't work, but I have to admit that Westphal has been pretty good at managing his roster so far.

Someone mentioned Martins passing ability and ballhandling. His ballhandling is just decent. He tends to get into trouble when he dribbles into traffic. Thats why he's known as a slasher, but not a finisher. When Martin drives to the basket, for the most part, its to get fouled, not to make the basket. Thats why he usually pulls up in the key for some kind of shot. He's not a good passer, and any assists he gets are assists of convenience. His assist to turnover ratio are almost 1 to 1. Truth is, he knows he's not a good passer, so he doesn't passs the ball very often. Which in turn means that when he gets the ball, your probably not going to see him pass it.

Martin is what he is. And, I guess we'll find out fairly soon whether or not he fits in. But as Bricky said, he has a lot of value around the league, so he therefore has a lot of value to us.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#62
Part of the problem is that we've paid big bucks to a SG to be the face of the franchise, which he deserved at the time. Don't get me wrong, Martin is a nice dude, likable and all, and we all want this to succeed. However, we're now asking the recently anointed "face of the franchise", contract and all, to take a step back, and share the limelight, or in all reality, let Evans drive the mirth mobile. Then we'll be talking about how overpaid Martin is for the point production we're getting. It's a glorious, yet crappy, position to be in. Our previous golden boy now needs to be Pippen. (And in reality, Garcia is a better Pippen...I guess he can be Craig Hodges?)
I think Evans being this good, this quickly, has exacerbated the problem, to a degree. If Evans were not playing like the game-changer that he is, these discussions would not be as heated.
We don't know how it's all going to work out, and it's pure sausage to assume otherwise, but history has shown what kind of players Martin and Garcia are, and how Garcia's skill set, at least in theory, will mesh better with what Tyreke brings.
And yes, it is time to talk about building a championship team, and what role each of these kids will play, because it's time to make that move. There's probably one more potential big draft for the Kings if things continue in their current trajectory. Then it's a big trade for a big guy...and profit.

This all ties into how the SF position works. SG/SF can be a blend.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#68
exactly!

all of people tend to forgot K-MART IS STILL ON THIS TEAM, hes a SG!! hes averaging 30ppg! hes no doubt going to be getting minutes at SG over cisco.
In which case if we want a secondary ball handler on the court we have to put Cisco in over Greene or Casspi.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#71
exactly!

all of people tend to forgot K-MART IS STILL ON THIS TEAM, hes a SG!! hes averaging 30ppg! hes no doubt going to be getting minutes at SG over cisco.
Well if you've read all the posts leading up to this one, I think you'll find just the opposite. The fact is, we do remember that Martin is a SG, and thats the subject of this conservation. And we remember that he was averaging 30 PPG. But the conversation is a little more complicated than he's going to get minutes at SG over Cisco. Its about his overall fit to the team. A lot of good points have been made on both sides of the discussion. If you haven't read them, I suggest you do..
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#72
#73
I don't doubt that adding Martin into the lineup is going to produce more points and perhaps a better FG percentage. But haven't we been praising Donte for his defense and contributing to wins that way? I have yet to see one argument from anyone that the defense is better with Martin on the court. How can we be pushing minutes for Donte based on his defensive contribution and then handing over 35 minutes a game for a guy whose defense is suspect during his career? So IMO, Martin should have his minutes handed to him based on his efforts on playing defense. Just like every other player.

The point is the team doesn't need a 30 point a game scorer. They already are 5th in the league at putting up 104 points a game. But they give up 105. They need to be getting the opponents FG % down. They are 23rd in the league at allowing almost 47% and the elite teams with the big winning records are allowing opponents to shoot in the 43 - 44% range.
 
#74
The point is the team doesn't need a 30 point a game scorer. They already are 5th in the league at putting up 104 points a game. But they give up 105. They need to be getting the opponents FG % down. They are 23rd in the league at allowing almost 47% and the elite teams with the big winning records are allowing opponents to shoot in the 43 - 44% range.

^^^This. I hope KMart fits in, but seriously, his defense sucks. That fact that he was scoring 30 ppg earlier this season means squat when the team is scoring just as many points with him gone. If he fits in great, if not he's a valuable trade piece and gets moved for something else we need. It's a win-win for us either way.
 
#75
I think Omri is better than Donte... I would like to see Omri start.. He reminds me of a mix between Noc, and Manu.. Toughness from Noc, and finesse from Manu. I think we might have an allstar in the making.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#76
I think Omri is better than Donte... I would like to see Omri start.. He reminds me of a mix between Noc, and Manu.. Toughness from Noc, and finesse from Manu. I think we might have an allstar in the making.
Yeah, I compared his game to Manu during the exhibition season and got blasted for it. I think people thought I meant he looked like Manu. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you, but I'm not sure now. I think Omri has better basketball IQ than Greene, which shouldn't be surprising, but based entirely on the last few games, I have to give the edge to Greene on defense. Offensively I think Omri has a better overall game, but Greene is improving game by game. Its really a tough call, but thats a great problem to have.
 
#77
Yeah, I compared his game to Manu during the exhibition season and got blasted for it. I think people thought I meant he looked like Manu. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you, but I'm not sure now. I think Omri has better basketball IQ than Greene, which shouldn't be surprising, but based entirely on the last few games, I have to give the edge to Greene on defense. Offensively I think Omri has a better overall game, but Greene is improving game by game. Its really a tough call, but thats a great problem to have.
In any case, both of them are rapidly improving their game, so hopefully by the end of the season they will both be real beasts. Omri does have the Rookie Wall to "look forward to"... although I hope it won't be that bad with him since he does have the experience of traveling a lot with Maccabi the last couple of years and playing way more games than the average college player (though still not close to NBA intensity).
 
#79
Yeah, I compared his game to Manu during the exhibition season and got blasted for it. I think people thought I meant he looked like Manu. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you, but I'm not sure now. I think Omri has better basketball IQ than Greene, which shouldn't be surprising, but based entirely on the last few games, I have to give the edge to Greene on defense. Offensively I think Omri has a better overall game, but Greene is improving game by game. Its really a tough call, but thats a great problem to have.

I agree. Its interesting watching this develop.

I found a pre-season guess on minutes distribution that I made. Interesting. I have added to it today my guess on how it goes after the Martin/Garcia return.

Pos. Player No. of Minutes My Pre -season Guess No. of Minutes w/Martin/ Garcia return (12/29 prediction)
PF/ C Hawes 36 22
Thompson 31 32
May 23 0
Thomas 0 2
Brockman 0 12
{68} out of 96

PG Udrih 25 23
Evans 18 35
Rodriguez 4 7
{65} out of 48

SG/SF Martin 39 28
Nocioni 30 15
Garcia 21 20
Mason/Udoka 4 10
Greene 4 18
Casspi 5 16
{107} out of 96


This turned out to be a mess. Live and maybe learn. With these kinds of minutes they can start anybody they want.
 
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PoundForPound

Guest
#80
It's going to be tough when Kmart comes back (even more so when garcia gets back). The Kings have a lot of options at that position.

-When Nocioni is playing well, he is a force to be reckoned with. This guy knocks down threes and his toughness adds to the overall vibe of the team.
 
#81
That fact that he was scoring 30 ppg earlier this season means squat when the team is scoring just as many points with him gone.
I thought this was intersting. The team has actually increased scoring with him out of the lineup, from 101.4 to 104 per game. That's only 5 games vs 25 games, but the 104/game would also be the highest they've averaged since the 104.6 they averaged during the 01-02 season.

That doesn't mean we have a better offense now than we did in 03 (we don't), but its a stat to combat the stats. The pro Martin/Tyreke backcourt crowd insist that because Martin is an efficient scorer and not a ball dominant player that his and Tyreke's games will mesh perfectly and not hinder each other. Essentially that Tyreke will still handle the ball and do his thing, but routinely kick it to Martin who will "score efficiently".

But it has to at least make you wonder, how come our offense got better without Martin? Not W-L, or defense mind you, but how come we lost our best player, and the most efficient scorer in the league....then started scoring more points than we have in years? (I'm not really sure, but it HAS to make you wonder, no?)

As for the topic of the thread count me in the start Greene and bring Casspi off the bench group. Greene's defense should set the tone early and Casspi's game translates great as a 6th man (not unlike two-time 6th man winner Detlef Schrempf, who's not a bad comparison). Either way they both need to play a lot and this is why trades need to get made sooner rather than later.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#82
All Matin has to do is stay in line play within the offense, put all his energy and effort into defense, help ball handle, and if he is starting by Tyreke, then maybe everything will be alright, Hopefully he sees that the team is doing well without him and it has changed his mentality a bit
 
#83
Greene's defense should set the tone early and Casspi's game translates great as a 6th man (not unlike two-time 6th man winner Detlef Schrempf, who's not a bad comparison).
Wow, I haven't thought of that guy in a while. Actually not that bad a comparison, minus the sweet flattop. :D Omri's probably already about as good as Detlef up until he really hit his prime in his late 20's.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#84
Wow, I haven't thought of that guy in a while. Actually not that bad a comparison, minus the sweet flattop. :D Omri's probably already about as good as Detlef up until he really hit his prime in his late 20's.
Detlef had a supremely better polished offensive game, Casspi is still a little helter skelter out there, Schrempf also had a very good post up game
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#85
I thought this was intersting. The team has actually increased scoring with him out of the lineup, from 101.4 to 104 per game. That's only 5 games vs 25 games, but the 104/game would also be the highest they've averaged since the 104.6 they averaged during the 01-02 season.

That doesn't mean we have a better offense now than we did in 03 (we don't), but its a stat to combat the stats. The pro Martin/Tyreke backcourt crowd insist that because Martin is an efficient scorer and not a ball dominant player that his and Tyreke's games will mesh perfectly and not hinder each other. Essentially that Tyreke will still handle the ball and do his thing, but routinely kick it to Martin who will "score efficiently".

But it has to at least make you wonder, how come our offense got better without Martin? Not W-L, or defense mind you, but how come we lost our best player, and the most efficient scorer in the league....then started scoring more points than we have in years? (I'm not really sure, but it HAS to make you wonder, no?)
we score more points because we are shooting a higher fg%/3pt% than we were in the first 5 games... as long as we are shooting a high percentage we will score a lot of points. the number of attempts hasnt changed we have just made more shots, we also had mason and may starting.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#86
Wow, I haven't thought of that guy in a while. Actually not that bad a comparison, minus the sweet flattop. :D Omri's probably already about as good as Detlef up until he really hit his prime in his late 20's.
hmmm...I like Omri and I'll accept the age qualifier, but Detlef is one of those forgotten about and perennially underrated players and Omri would do well if he ends up even being mentioned in the same breath with him. 3x All Star. 2x 6th Man of the Year. Third Team All NBA one year. Probably about a dozen career triple doubles and once averaged 19.1pts 9.5rebs 6.0assists in a season...
 
#87
hmmm...I like Omri and I'll accept the age qualifier, but Detlef is one of those forgotten about and perennially underrated players and Omri would do well if he ends up even being mentioned in the same breath with him. 3x All Star. 2x 6th Man of the Year. Third Team All NBA one year. Probably about a dozen career triple doubles and once averaged 19.1pts 9.5rebs 6.0assists in a season...
Obviously, Detlef had about four monster years in the middle of his career, but if you look at what he was doing at age 25 or 26, it's very comparable to Omri right now. Not that I can ever envision Omri averaging either 9 boards or 6 assists, let alone both.
 
#88
Obviously, Detlef had about four monster years in the middle of his career, but if you look at what he was doing at age 25 or 26, it's very comparable to Omri right now. Not that I can ever envision Omri averaging either 9 boards or 6 assists, let alone both.
Why not? Omri is just starting out in the NBA and he's only 21. He's already had a few games with around 10 rebounds. There's no reason why with time he won't start getting that on a more consistent basis and making that his average number. As for assists, that would be a new aspect of the game he would have to develop, but he has shown great capacity to add new elements to his game, so I can definitely envision him putting up better numbers in that category as well. Not to mention that right now he is not really in a position to dish out many assists because he doesn't have the ball in his hands enough times to do it. The players who are in charge of creating at this point are Tyreke, Beno, and Sergio. If Omri improves his ball handling and stabilizes his status in the team rotation, he will slowly add the assists to his repertoire.
 
#89
I must be totally misinformed. I could have swore that Casspi has shown alot of defensive potential and plays well on that end of the floor. Greene plays well, sometimes. Casspi is almost always on.
 
#90
Why not? Omri is just starting out in the NBA and he's only 21.
I guess you never know for sure what's possible and what's not, but he doesn't strike me as capable of either. For a SF to average over 5 assists not only requires a special playmaker but also a certain system, and while he's MUCH better than advertised in passing off the dribble I don't think he's one of those few. Likewise, the number of SF's who approach double digit rebounding are far and few between, and they're either freak athletes or have supreme positional rebounding sense. I would think that if he could develop into something like a 15-20/7/3, we should be ecstatic.