Grades v. Spurs 12/09/09

[AriesMar27]

If Evans was playing such 'bad defense', why did he have 4 steals? I watched the game, the ball didn't fall into his lap, he was making plays to get it. Picking off passes, getting to the loose balls, you are just trying a new angle and it is pretty funny. You make me lol sometimes with your single minded pursuit, but whatev. Thats your gig, so I hope you keep it up because if you all of a sudden changed then I would think someone possessed your body.

gambling on a steal doesnt make you a good defender, it makes you foul prone... oh wait, evans is foul prone... i wonder why? he is a willing defender, i'll give you that. but at 6'6 guarding pg isnt that hard, yet it hasnt earned us many wins... last time i checked we still only have 1 win on the road...

 

[Kingsguy881]

gambling on a steal doesnt make you a good defender, it makes you foul prone... oh wait, evans is foul prone... i wonder why? he is a willing defender, i'll give you that. but at 6'6 guarding pg isnt that hard, yet it hasnt earned us many wins... last time i checked we still only have 1 win on the road...

Lol. Love the 'foul prone' comment. How many games has mr. Foul Prone fouled out of again? I don't even have to LOOK that one up. So you mistake being aggressive with being foul prone.....are we talking about basketball or badminton? Thompson is foul prone.

In the NBA, guarding pg's is tough, there are big strong guards, shifty guards, quick guards, nimble guards. Guarding pg's in the NBA is never easy, yet Evans holds his own against almost every single one he has faced, which has been the cream of the pg crop in the NBA to this point.

You are killing me, LMAO. "Gambling on a steal makes you foul prone" WTF is that bull****? Good logic with that one. OMFG, if that kind of logic you are willing to post......wow. Wake and bake, broseph?

 

[Kingsguy881]

Kevin gambles on steals all the time, is he foul prone? LMMFAO!!!!!!!

 

[Kingsguy881]

Chris Paul gambles on steals all the time, to the tune of 8 two games ago....I guess he is foul prone. Lol. Oh wow.

 

[AriesMar27]

Lol. Love the 'foul prone' comment. How many games has mr. Foul Prone fouled out of again? I don't even have to LOOK that one up. So you mistake being aggressive with being foul prone.....are we talking about basketball or badminton? Thompson is foul prone.

In the NBA, guarding pg's is tough, there are big strong guards, shifty guards, quick guards, nimble guards. Guarding pg's in the NBA is never easy, yet Evans holds his own against almost every single one he has faced, which has been the cream of the pg crop in the NBA to this point.

You are killing me, LMAO. "Gambling on a steal makes you foul prone" WTF is that bull****? Good logic with that one. OMFG, if that kind of logic you are willing to post......wow. Wake and bake, broseph?

dude... are you serious? what do you think a reaching foul is? a gamble for a steal... unless its an intentional foul, most defensive fouls are gambles for the ball... well the tripping fouls arent but those are suspect just like the forearm on the back fouls... those just suck and are unnecessary.

 

[Kingsguy881]

dude... are you serious? what do you think a reaching foul is? a gamble for a steal... unless its an intentional foul, most defensive fouls are gambles for the ball... well the tripping fouls arent but those are suspect just like the forearm on the back fouls... those just suck and are unnecessary.

Most defensive fouls occur around the basket. Not on the perimeter. And if you foul someone without trying to get the ball then you are playing football, not basketball. What is the point, other than hack-a-shaq, of fouling someone when you are not trying to get possession of the ball?

But the bottom line is you called Evans foul prone, and you need to back that up. If he is foul prone, where does he rank in the league for fouls, DQ's, ejections?

I bet you were one of those Bibby detractors, talking about how Bibby is horrid on defense. Now you are whining because Reke is aggressive on defense. Pick a side of the fence and stay on it.

 

[AriesMar27]

Kevin gambles on steals all the time, is he foul prone? LMMFAO!!!!!!!

is kevin a good defender? no.... and he plays passing lanes.

same goes for chris paul, but he is a good defender.

using evans steals per game doesnt prove that he is a good defender. though i dont want to do this because i always say that other people mention his name in threads instead of me. i will say it this time, he who shall remain nameless gets tons of steals, we all know that he wont be much of a defender when he gets to the nba. evans man defense is pretty good but he tries to do too much. im not saying that he is a bad defender, he's pretty good... just not a defensive stopper. not yet at least. but someone who hasnt watched him play wouldnt be able to tell if they read thses boards. they would think that he was in the running for dpoy.

i like his defense, i just think he tries to do too much, just like thompson who is also foul prone. they need to slow down...

 

[Kingsguy881]

is kevin a good defender? no.... and he plays passing lanes.

same goes for chris paul, but he is a good defender.

using evans steals per game doesnt prove that he is a good defender. though i dont want to do this because i always say that other people mention his name in threads instead of me. i will say it this time, he who shall remain nameless gets tons of steals, we all know that he wont be much of a defender when he gets to the nba. evans man defense is pretty good but he tries to do too much. im not saying that he is a bad defender, he's pretty good... just not a defensive stopper. not yet at least. but someone who hasnt watched him play wouldnt be able to tell if they read thses boards. they would think that he was in the running for dpoy.

i like his defense, i just think he tries to do too much, just like thompson who is also foul prone. they need to slow down...

So back up what you say. How is Evans foul prone? Where's your proof? Show me some stats, recall some instances where he got flat out beat by his man and pulled on his jersey like JT would. Come on dude, don't tell me the world is round and then not show me a globe. Back up your talk.

 

[bajaden]

Snipes baby, good news for you, you don't have to worry that you hurt me. So you can sleep tonight. I'm honestly more concerned for Beno, that you might soil his reputation by respresenting him.

I will be calling you out everytime you display this twisted logic and baselessly attack Kings players. Maybe I'll have to coin a phrase to identify it.

And also, you do not know what you are talking about.

The best way to deal with posters like him is to simply ignore him. Don't respond to his posts. Pretend he's not there. Make him irrelevent. He's like the child that crys for attention. If you ignore them long enough, they go to sleep.

 

[AriesMar27]

So back up what you say. How is Evans foul prone? Where's your proof? Show me some stats, recall some instances where he got flat out beat by his man and pulled on his jersey like JT would. Come on dude, don't tell me the world is round and then not show me a globe. Back up your talk.

dude, he is 2nd on the team in personal fouls at 3.0 pf after thompsons (4.1)... ewww... but he is foul prone dude.

 

[Prince_XY]

thats why i mentioned the teams lack of effort on defense, but like missed freethrows defense is contagious, so is a lack of defense... evans has fallen into the im not going to guard you for 24 seconds mentality. instinctively he'll defend the ball but after a few seconds he losses interest in playing it for the entire shot clock. it happened a few times in the game, im not saying that he was a bad defender, he can play defense so i dont know where you get this idea that i think that he is a bad defender.

i was just pointing out that its unfair to blame beno for his poor defense when evans is doing the same thing. not as often or not as bad but he does... its a team thing. casspi doesnt play much defense, neither do thompson, hawes or sergio. luckily thompson is hella scappy and tries to make up for it.

You very well know why Beno is being blamed for his poor defense and Evans is not. You mentioned it yourself. It is not unfair to blame Beno for his poor defense, since OFTEN times he had been poor in defense. You implied it yourself: Evans is not as often and not as bad as Beno with regards to poor defense. So, why link Evans to bad defense?

It could have been more understandable if you used Hawes or Martin for comparison. But Evans? Almost everyone knows he defends very well.

Do you really hate Evans that much?

It seems you always want to link Evans name in whatever bad that comes out of this Kings team ( i.e. turn overs) And you very seldom give the Kid the credit for whatever good that comes out.

 

[bajaden]

but back to the grades... played a good game and lost. its also kinda funny how people bag on benos poor defense and act like evans is bruce bowen, manu put one hell of a move on him at the end of the game... i just had to bring that one up, he faked the hell out of evans for a easy dunk....

I doubt that anyone on our team can guard Parker one on one. Thats not a knock on our team. Its just that Parker is a tough guard for anyone in the league. He has to be one of the quickest, if not the quickest player in the league. Besides being quick, he's also crafty. Something that comes with experience. Look what Nash did against us in the last quarter of that game. Nash certainly isn't the quickest guy in the league anymore. But he's as crafty as they come.

The good news was that at the end of the game, we had Evans, a rookie, Casspi, a rookie, Thompson, a second year player, Greene, a second year player and Hawes a third year, 21 year old player, giving the Spurs all they could handle. Experience won out. This time! But time is on our side.

 

[Kingsguy881]

dude, he is 2nd on the team in personal fouls at 3.0 pf after thompsons (4.1)... ewww... but he is foul prone dude.

3 fouls in 36 minutes of play? Thats aggressiveness son, that is not foul prone. How many DQ's with those 3 fouls? The definition of foul prone is that you just can't help yourself but to foul. Which means he should have at least 1-2 DQ's for every 10 games he plays. THAT is foul prone. How many DQ's does he have?

 

[TIG Kings]

I really wonder from which aspect is beno so bad defender! i gave the proof with last game vs TP9 and he has the best +/- this season on the team, so there must be something wrong here. So team is better with him on the floor than with anybody else!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

dude, he is 2nd on the team in personal fouls at 3.0 pf after thompsons (4.1)... ewww... but he is foul prone dude.

You might try to look at per-minute statistics rather than totals. Evans has, you may realize, played more minutes than any other player on our team. In terms of fouls per minute, Evans is 9th on the team, with 2.9/36. Sergio is at 2.8/36 and Casspi at 2.7/36 so Evans is just a touch from being 11th on the team. League average is 3.37/36, so Evans is less foul-prone than the average player in the league by a decent margin.

But, you know, keep setting 'em up and we'll keep knocking 'em down!

 

[Kingsguy881]

You might try to look at per-minute statistics rather than totals. Evans has, you may realize, played more minutes than any other player on our team. In terms of fouls per minute, Evans is 9th on the team, with 2.9/36. Sergio is at 2.8/36 and Casspi at 2.7/36 so Evans is just a touch from being 11th on the team. League average is 3.37/36, so Evans is less foul-prone than the average player in the league by a decent margin.

But, you know, keep setting 'em up and we'll keep knocking 'em down!

I knew eventually someone more savvy at it than myself would come through with the stats to prove it. Thanks for the info. I knew from watching him that he wasn't foul prone and when he was accused of so being I knew it was just another attempt to bring him down, but you proved what I couldn't. Good work.

 

[AriesMar27]

I knew eventually someone more savvy at it than myself would come through with the stats to prove it. Thanks for the info. I knew from watching him that he wasn't foul prone and when he was accused of so being I knew it was just another attempt to bring him down, but you proved what I couldn't. Good work.

per 36 is great but for the game he is still 2nd in personal fouls and averages twice as many fouls(3.0) as steals(1.50). chris paul averaged .6 more pf(2.8) per game than steals(2.24) in his rookie season....

 

[Kingsguy881]

per 36 is great but for the game he is still 2nd in personal fouls and averages twice as many fouls(3.0) as steals(1.50). chris paul averaged .6 more pf(2.8) per game than steals(2.24) in his rookie season....

Kobe avergaes 2.7 in 36 minutes....not that far off from Evans. Is Kobe foul prone?

 

[Bricklayer]

per 36 is great but for the game he is still 2nd in personal fouls and averages twice as many fouls(3.0) as steals(1.50). chris paul averaged .6 more pf(2.8) per game than steals(2.24) in his rookie season....

Because obviously anybody who does not average the NBA steals leader's steals to TO ratio is thereby foul prone.

You are being ridiculous. And you are not accomplishing anything by all this. Nobody is listenig to you. Nobody is following you. Nobody is buying it. So I ask, why persist?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

per 36 is great but for the game he is still 2nd in personal fouls

Again, per game is not a good measure here. Tyreke has played more minutes per game than anybody else (outside of Martin) on our team. Of course he will have more fouls per game if he plays more minutes per game, because fouls, like minutes, are a cumulative statistic. I would ask why you would think that per game was the appropriate measure here, but I think (puff, puff) I know the answer.

and averages twice as many fouls(3.0) as steals(1.50). chris paul averaged .6 more pf(2.8) per game than steals(2.24) in his rookie season....

The average NBA player this year is averaging 2.93 fouls per steal, so Tyreke's 2 fouls per steal is, yet again, better than average. It may be a bit unfair to make a comparison between Tyreke and Chris Paul, considering not only that Chris Paul has led the league in steals twice in 4 full seasons, but also that Paul's career Steal Percentage of 3.5% would be good for 5th all-time, and best of all active players, if he were to have enough steals to qualify. That's a whole lot of cherry-picking in an attempt to show Evans to be foul prone after the per minute numbers clearly show you are wrong.

Because obviously anybody who does not average the NBA steals leader's steals to TO ratio is thereby foul prone.

Brick obviously said it best while I was writing this. Much more concise.

 

[AriesMar27]

all i said was that he is foul prone because he gambles too much on steals... i compared him to paul because kingsguy881 mentioned him so i used his rookie stats. chris paul is a good defender, kingysguy881's defense of evans defense was his steals.

how you guys attack a poster who is a player fan is hella ironic with the way you treat evans. damn...

 

[VF21]

all i said was that he is foul prone because he gambles too much on steals... i compared him to paul because kingsguy881 mentioned him so i used his rookie stats. chris paul is a good defender, kingysguy881's defense of evans defense was his steals.

how you guys attack a poster who is a player fan is hella ironic with the way you treat evans. damn...

Oh just knock it off. Seriously. That stuff has NEVER floated around here and never will.

This is probably the most civilized sports message board on the Internet. And we work hard to keep it that way. If someone comes on and pretty much talks pure, unadulterated crap, however, he/she is gonna be called on it.

Take it for what it's worth...and quit acting as though you and you alone are the voice of reason and the rest of us are no more than a pack of dogs running around chasing their own tails. Your signature speaks volumes... if people know what to listen for.

 

[VF21]

Enough is enough, guys. Back to the topic at hand and not personal jabs at other members. Thanks.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I think you misunderstood him. I don't think he wants to be treated like Tyreke himself, but that he's accusing you all of being homers just like the guys acting like Beno is god's gift to basketball.

Of course, his point is moot when he anchors it in Tyreke's imaginary foul-proneness or bad defence.

That said, after watching that Manu bucket a couple of times I'd call it mostly Tyreke's fault. After Casspi stopped the initial break (Tyreke was behind Manu) Tyreke picked up Manu as he dribbled back outside the arc, Casspi looked to cover the open man (Parker) and lost sight of the ball in the process, at which point Manu blew by Tyreke like he wasn't there.

So Casspi is definitely complicit, since losing track of the ball is a no-no, but Tyreke is the one who did a Calderon imitation on Manu.

The highlighted part right there is exactly why it was Casspi's fault. Evans had just gotten the assignment of guarding Parker, Evans came over and saw that the ball had been stopped and there was a defender between the ball and the basket. Evans was NOT in position to defend Manu so he let Casspi take him. If anything, there was a miscommunication between Evans and Casspi, but Casspi was in position to defend Manu and Tyreke was backing off to let him, while trying to find his man (Parker). If Casspi would have remained between Manu and the hoop, a much tougher drive would have occurred. Because Tyreke was out of position to defend Manu, thats when Casspi has to step up. Give Manu credit, he duped both Evans and Casspi into thinking he was bringing the ball back out to set up the offense.

 

[Kingsguy881]

One last thing. Even if Evans had come over to play defense on Manu, all Ginobli would have done is gone baseline anyway resulting in a hoop and probably the harm. 3 pt play. Which is why in a good defensive set, the person who is able to take away the baseline is the one in position to defend. I was always taught to take away the baseline and push the offensive player toward the middle of the court, because that is where your help defense will be coming from. One thing that irked me about Theus was that he had them pushing guys baseline, AWAY from the help defense.

 

[DeaconBlues]

One last thing. Even if Evans had come over to play defense on Manu, all Ginobli would have done is gone baseline anyway resulting in a hoop and probably the harm. 3 pt play. Which is why in a good defensive set, the person who is able to take away the baseline is the one in position to defend. I was always taught to take away the baseline and push the offensive player toward the middle of the court, because that is where your help defense will be coming from. One thing that irked me about Theus was that he had them pushing guys baseline, AWAY from the help defense.

Er, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

Tyreke wasn't sagging, he was just out of position (You don't sag off the ballhandler to guard someone else when the your closest teammate is eight feet away) And Manu went right and torched him.

A defensive miscommunication, sure, and ultimately it's the Spurs scoring on a 4 on 3 fastbreak, which they're likely to do every time they're in that situation, but saying Tyreke isn't at all complicit when he was on Manu when he made his play is just ludicrous.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Er, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

Tyreke wasn't sagging, he was just out of position (You don't sag off the ballhandler to guard someone else when the your closest teammate is eight feet away) And Manu went right and torched him.

A defensive miscommunication, sure, and ultimately it's the Spurs scoring on a 4 on 3 fastbreak, which they're likely to do every time they're in that situation, but saying Tyreke isn't at all complicit when he was on Manu when he made his play is just ludicrous.

Fast break, Tyreke getting back, out of position when Casspi WAS in position and already back. Who should take the ball? The person out of position who is just getting back or the person already back and in position? See, good defense is predicated on guys making the right decision. Tyreke made the right decision in letting the man who was in position to defend Manu take him, Casspi made the wrong decision to leave the basket unguarded. In baskebtall, on defense, you guard the hoop. In soccer, on defense, the goalie guards the net. In hockey, on defense, the goalie guards the net. Casspi was in position, like a goalie, to guard the hoop, and he went away from that.

A good coach will tell you to stay between the ball and the basket. Tyreke was getting back on their fast break and therefore was not between the ball and the basket, yet Casspi was. Which means it's his JOB to stop the man with the ball, not the person who is out of position. If you want to make it even more of an opportunity, Evans and Casspi could have doubled Manu in the corner to try and force a turnover. Casspi had the baseline covered, Tyreke had the sideline covered.

 

[DeaconBlues]

Fast break, Tyreke getting back, out of position when Casspi WAS in position and already back. Who should take the ball? The person out of position who is just getting back or the person already back and in position? See, good defense is predicated on guys making the right decision. Tyreke made the right decision in letting the man who was in position to defend Manu take him, Casspi made the wrong decision to leave the basket unguarded. In baskebtall, on defense, you guard the hoop. In soccer, on defense, the goalie guards the net. In hockey, on defense, the goalie guards the net. Casspi was in position, like a goalie, to guard the hoop, and he went away from that.

Casspi couldn't guard the ball and the basket at the same time, could he? Tyreke made the right decision in covering Manu, but he did it poorly. Casspi made the wrong decision to leave the hoop unattended. Shared blame.

A good coach will tell you to stay between the ball and the basket. Tyreke was getting back on their fast break and therefore was not between the ball and the basket, yet Casspi was. Which means it's his JOB to stop the man with the ball, not the person who is out of position. If you want to make it even more of an opportunity, Evans and Casspi could have doubled Manu in the corner to try and force a turnover. Casspi had the baseline covered, Tyreke had the sideline covered.

Are you still going on last night's memory of the play?

 

[Kingsguy881]

Casspi couldn't guard the ball and the basket at the same time, could he? Tyreke made the right decision in covering Manu, but he did it poorly. Casspi made the wrong decision to leave the hoop unattended. Shared blame.



Are you still going on last night's memory of the play?

I am.

Oh yeah, and by taking Ginobli in essence Casspi would have been guarding the ball and the basket at the same time, which is the point.

 

[VF21]

One more explanation: If you're quoting a post that attacked another poster's position, stop. If you have something to add to the discussion of the grades, a player's performance, fine...feel free to continue. But please don't bother quoting some of the stuff from a few pages back. That part is over and done. Finished.

Brick works too hard on these grade threads for it to be closed because of a partial derailment that occured and was resolved.

And one other general note? If you think someone is overdoing their debate/discussion, move on to the next thread. No need to argue whether or not they have a right to debate whatever point it is they want to examine.

Thanks.