Turnovers/Assists

[HighTopKicks]

Interesting. One would have thought that the opposition would have had more than 107 more attempts than us. Actually our assists per game isn't terrible. At least its close to the magic number 20. One would have to assume that the largest disparity between 107 more attempts and the 718 extra points had to come from our perimeter defense. I'm not trying to give our interior defense a free lunch ticket. But a lot of the interior problems occured when the perimeter defense broke down first.

I'm hopefull that the addition of Evans, along with improvement in team defense will help correct some of that. I would be interested in knowing what the disparity was on fast break points.

Great observation:

We actually made more 3's than our opponents also. And, your analysis of the back court defense leading to easy baskets explains our opponents high shooting percentages (48%). Not only did they get to the basket too often, but it created foul trouble problems and too many (and 1's)l.

Evans style of offenses and his defensive talent, should reduce the oppositions easy baskets (high effinciency) and increase our efficiency on offense (less jumpshots & more drives to the basket). Turnovers will always be there, but their much more palatable when they come from being aggressive and not from stupid or lackadaisical passes.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I am anti-Evans as the main distributor/PG because I don't think he's an upgrade over Beno (as a passer/handler/distributor).. I wouldn't mind him playing SG but that would mean trading my favorite King. So it's really a no win situation for me at least at this point. I really do hope someone turns on that PG light in Evans head and he proves me wrong!

Nothing was wrong with Beno as a passer, distributor, ball handler!!!! He was perfectly fine in those aspects. Where Beno stunk up the joint was having shooting nights of 2 for 9 and 5 points total. He would just stink it up offensively and that killed the Kings, not to mention on the other end of the court he couldn't guard a pea from a fly.

If Evans is the same type of ball handler/distributor/passer that Beno was/is, and adds 18+ ppg, 5-7 rebounds and plays lockdown defense, WHY ARE WE COMPLAINING AND BEING ANTI EVANS????!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Were any of you as good as your were going to get at age 19? Were any of you done learning and improving at age 19????

I knew everything at age 19.

Now, not so much.

 

[6th]

I knew everything at age 19.

Now, not so much.

Dang, pdx! An excellent example of wisdom coming with age. Now we realize that we don't know everything. At 19 we hadn't figured that out.

We are in trouble with Evans. He still thinks he knows everything.

 

[Gary]

Nothing was wrong with Beno as a passer, distributor, ball handler!!!! He was perfectly fine in those aspects. Where Beno stunk up the joint was having shooting nights of 2 for 9 and 5 points total. He would just stink it up offensively and that killed the Kings, not to mention on the other end of the court he couldn't guard a pea from a fly.

If Evans is the same type of ball handler/distributor/passer that Beno was/is, and adds 18+ ppg, 5-7 rebounds and plays lockdown defense, WHY ARE WE COMPLAINING AND BEING ANTI EVANS????!!!!!!!!!!!!

Evans isn't as good a ball handler/passer/distributor as Beno is though. I predict that for a while the offensive flow will look pretty messy with a lot of 1 on 1 play..

I am not trying to say Beno is the better overall player or anything because he is not. But when it comes to those three PG skills right now Beno is better.

 

[Gary]

Gary! He hasn't shown anything yet. He's a 19 year old talent thats going to get better. Its going to take a few years before we really know what we have. Come on dude. You watch as much college basketball as I do. He only played one year, and it was a damm sucessfull year. Maybe he didn't exhibit all the point guard skills that you wanted in that one year, but as I said, he's only 19 years old. My god, has everyone lost their common sense. Did any of you have your future defined at age 19? Were any of you as good as your were going to get at age 19? Were any of you done learning and improving at age 19????

Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..

I am just going off of history man You and I have seen enough of Evans to shudder when we think of him trying to run an NBA team that won 17 games. And because Martin is my favorite King right now I hat to think of Evans failing at PG only to have him and Martin dueling for the SG spot and Evans only winning out because he is 8 years younger (with Martin being traded).

I don't know but that's what I see happening for some reason. I know I know... He is only 19, and he has good overall talent right now, but his overall talent doesn't include PG skills, and outside shooting yet the Kings are going to feed him to the wolves. His VSL was a carbon copy of his college days. I didn't see him adding anything different, or new to his game. I know it was just 5 games..

After watching all the other combo guards though in VSL like Curry, Bayless, Nelson, and *cough* Douby (Mr. stats when it doesn't mean anything), I feel a lot better about the situation because at least we don't have an undersized SG if it came to that lol.

Oh yah, the guy I was really impressed with was Marcus Williams.. Ahhh... If he could carve a niche with a team he could be pretty dang good, and he is considered a combo so I still have hope in here somewhere!

 

[bajaden]

I knew everything at age 19.

Now, not so much.

A quote from Mark Twain.. " When I was 13 years old I had the stupidest parents in the world. I was amazed how much they learned by the time I reached 21 "

 

[Entity]

Evans isn't as good a ball handler/passer/distributor as Beno is though. I predict that for a while the offensive flow will look pretty messy with a lot of 1 on 1 play..

I am not trying to say Beno is the better overall player or anything because he is not. But when it comes to those three PG skills right now Beno is better.

But was Beno as good at those 3 skills at age 19 as he is now?

Your missing the big picture here Gary. In fact the whole offseason you have totally missed it. If you want to continue to compare 19 year old rookies to guys that have been in the league or playing proffessiona for 7 yeas the that is your right. I just want you to know that your opinions leave most of us shaking our heads at how closed minded they are.

To really drive your opinion home and make sure EVERYBODY knows it you should change you name Garytyrekeevansisn'tatruepgandmydoglookslikeacat.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Gary! He hasn't shown anything yet. He's a 19 year old talent thats going to get better. Its going to take a few years before we really know what we have. Come on dude. You watch as much college basketball as I do. He only played one year, and it was a damm sucessfull year. Maybe he didn't exhibit all the point guard skills that you wanted in that one year, but as I said, he's only 19 years old. My god, has everyone lost their common sense. Did any of you have your future defined at age 19? Were any of you as good as your were going to get at age 19? Were any of you done learning and improving at age 19????

Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..

Well said. Just add a few more exclamation points.

 

[fnordius]

+ Reke, Omri, Brock, Sergio, May.

- Ike, McCants, Bobby, Booth, Simmons.

Talent increased.

Ummm, I'm not making any assertions about talent level relative to last year, only risk of A/TO problems. But let me point out that you forgot a few people who definitely contributed to last year's stat line. Aside from Drew Gooden's one game, we had...

- Brad Miller, John Salmons, Bobby Jackson, Mikki Moore, Will Solomon, Quincy Douby, and Shelden Williams.

Miller, Salmons, Jackson, Solomon and Douby had better assist and A/TO numbers than any of our current roster except for Udrih and Rodriguez, and that's important WRT the topic under discussion.

Since I've already dissected the stats in a couple of ways, let's see how the personnel changes already impacted our stat line. The results probably won't be what you expected.

For the first 20 games of the season, we averaged 21.0 assists per game and 15.2 TO, for an A/TO ratio of 1.374. For the last 20, assists dropped to 19.6, but TOs dropped even more, to 13.6, for an A/TO ratio of 1.450. Considering we'd gotten rid of some decent passers (Miller and Salmons being the most obvious), how did our A/TO ratio improve?

Having statistically analyzed junk for the last 2 or 3 hours, the answers seem to be:

1) Udrih played better as the season went on, although his minutes decreased some due to minor injuries. In the first 20 games, he averaged 5.25 assists and 2.9 TO for an A/TO ratio of 1.81, in 31.4 minutes. In the last 20 (of which he missed 4), he averaged 4.95 assists and 1.7 TO, for an A/TO ratio of 2.91, in 28.35 minutes. That's easily the most dramatic improvement in A/TO ratio on the team.

2) Bobby Jackson rescued us in several late season games. While his numbers (minutes, assists, turnovers) were fairly steady through the year, it was distributed unevenly during the late season -- he played in 20 out of 20 during the early season, but only 13/20 of the last ones. But without him, and year end performances like 12 assists and 2 TO in 38 minutes (last 20 games A/TO ratio: 3.14), the team's ratio might not have improved at all.

3) Hawes improved over the course of the year, too. He started off with only 1.7 assists per game, and an A/TO ratio of 0.85, but by year's end he was doing 2.45 assists with an A/TO ratio of 1.25. In the early season, Miller was maintaining an A/TO ratio of 2.19, and 3.4 assists a game. Obviously, Hawes has a long way to go to catch up to Brad, but his improvement is still worthy of mention, as he's gone from a definite negative to being almost neutral.

The remaining questions:

A) Garcia. He was missing from our first 17 games, and it may have hurt us. In the first 20 games, he made 5 assists and 2 TO in 62 minutes. In the last 20, he got 59 A and 44 TO (ratio: 1.34) in 720 minutes. Although his A/TO ratio was still below the team average, and theoretically drags the average down, in practice he may have been making assists that would otherwise have been attempted by worse players. I can't say anything conclusive, but his absence was probably a negative.

B) Salmons: despite his non-awful A/TO ratio, he didn't help us much, if at all, in the early season. In the first 20 games, he averaged 2.9 assists and 2.25 TO (A/TO ratio: 1.29) in 36.2 minutes. This is not impressive, rather than improve things, it dragged the team A/TO ratio down a tiny bit. Losing him and the TOs he picked up playing iso, made our ratio a tad better, and dropped our overall TO/game.

C) Martin: Our delicate SG missed 12 out of the first 20 games, and 9 of the last 20.His A/TO ratio hovers around 1, so that probably wouldn't matter, except that he might have been a recipient for more passes if he weren't gimpy. Consider him an unknown in the whole equation.

D) Coaching: probably had some impact too, but hard to say what it was.

As for a forecast for the upcoming season, I see a huge range of possibilities, depending on injuries and coaching decisions. We could easily drop to being the first team in 30+ years to pull off a collective A/TO ratio of below 1.0, but that doesn't have to happen. Assuming BJax is done, I'd say it mostly hinges on the minutes given to Rodriguez and Udrih as the only players who do much better than 1.0. Garcia and Hawes can chip in too, but their ratios are slightly below our ('08-'09) team average, so if they contribute TOO much they will drag the average down.

I'll guess that Westphal figures this out, and avoids the worst of it. If he does, I'm thinking that we'll average somewhere around 19-20 assists and 16 TO per game. This will put us somewhere around the bottom of the NBA, as we are now, but avoid setting any NBA records for badness. If he pursues this approach, I also expect the ratio to improve a bit as the season progresses.

If Beno and Rodriguez ride the pine all the time, I couldn't rule out 17 and 17.

 

[Gary]

But was Beno as good at those 3 skills at age 19 as he is now?

Your missing the big picture here Gary. In fact the whole offseason you have totally missed it. If you want to continue to compare 19 year old rookies to guys that have been in the league or playing proffessiona for 7 yeas the that is your right. I just want you to know that your opinions leave most of us shaking our heads at how closed minded they are.

To really drive your opinion home and make sure EVERYBODY knows it you should change you name Garytyrekeevansisn'tatruepgandmydoglookslikeacat.

My point is that it's not often people draft SGs to play PG. Hawes was young and a lot of people wanted him to play PF but he simply lacked the quickness and skillset to play. Why is that case any different than this case? Evans simply lacks a PG skillset. He does fine dribbling the ball when he's not dribbling off someones foot (or his own) or dribbling out of bounds, but he missed quite a few open players while driving down the lane. It was the same issue in college. He wasn't even the best passer on his college team.

Seriously, a lot of people are shaking their heads on both ends. I can see your point though.

Why say a 19 year old kid with some ball handling ability can't learn to play PG? He DID handle the ball in college and Memphis did fine right?

And then you have.... Why did we bring in a SG to play PG? He might have played the handler in college but the Kings are not playing him in the position where he can show his strengths. Plus you have the whole Martin thing.

We are the worst team in the NBA bottom line. It probably doesn't matter what we do at this point because we can't get any worse. I am all for giving him a try at PG but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be dissapointed when he's averaging a 1 to 1 or worse during his rookie season. He will probably get better in that aspect though as the seasons change.


OK serious question.......
He is 19 now, but how many years do you think the Kings will give him before they look somewhere else IF Evans is stull putting up less than a 2 to 1 ratio and the Kings are still well below .500?

 

[bajaden]

I am just going off of history man You and I have seen enough of Evans to shudder when we think of him trying to run an NBA team that won 17 games. And because Martin is my favorite King right now I hat to think of Evans failing at PG only to have him and Martin dueling for the SG spot and Evans only winning out because he is 8 years younger (with Martin being traded).

I don't know but that's what I see happening for some reason. I know I know... He is only 19, and he has good overall talent right now, but his overall talent doesn't include PG skills, and outside shooting yet the Kings are going to feed him to the wolves. His VSL was a carbon copy of his college days. I didn't see him adding anything different, or new to his game. I know it was just 5 games..

After watching all the other combo guards though in VSL like Curry, Bayless, Nelson, and *cough* Douby (Mr. stats when it doesn't mean anything), I feel a lot better about the situation because at least we don't have an undersized SG if it came to that lol.

Oh yah, the guy I was really impressed with was Marcus Williams.. Ahhh... If he could carve a niche with a team he could be pretty dang good, and he is considered a combo so I still have hope in here somewhere!

I didn't say it was going to be easy or pretty. One could say that on paper last year we were better than a 17 win team. Its hard to argue with the results, but in my opinion all the parts just didn't fit together very well. As far as summer league goes, I don't put much stock in it. Especially were point guards are concerned. Your throwing together a bunch of guys that haven't played together before and then making a judgement on the results.

I saw glimpses in summer league of a kid that was really trying to distribute the ball. He seems to be coachable and wants to improve. The question, which will be answered in time, is how good is his court vision, and how good are his point guard instincts. If he has both those things, then, with dedication, he should be able to develop into the point guard we need.

I watched Douby in college, and I never thought he had pt guard instincts, or the passing skills. I mean Douby lived and died with the outside shot. Evans certainly doesn't do that. He has the ability to disrupt a defense with his penetration. Its just a matter of being able to take advantage of the mistakes the opposing defense makes. Hang in there guy, I think were going to be OK. I honestly think he's going to make the game easier for Martin. I could be wrong. We'll see..

 

[bajaden]

My point is that it's not often people draft SGs to play PG. Hawes was young and a lot of people wanted him to play PF but he simply lacked the quickness and skillset to play. Why is that case any different than this case? Evans simply lacks a PG skillset. He does fine dribbling the ball when he's not dribbling off someones foot (or his own) or dribbling out of bounds, but he missed quite a few open players while driving down the lane. It was the same issue in college. He wasn't even the best passer on his college team.

Seriously, a lot of people are shaking their heads on both ends. I can see your point though.

Why say a 19 year old kid with some ball handling ability can't learn to play PG? He DID handle the ball in college and Memphis did fine right?

And then you have.... Why did we bring in a SG to play PG? He might have played the handler in college but the Kings are not playing him in the position where he can show his strengths. Plus you have the whole Martin thing.

We are the worst team in the NBA bottom line. It probably doesn't matter what we do at this point because we can't get any worse. I am all for giving him a try at PG but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be dissapointed when he's averaging a 1 to 1 or worse during his rookie season. He will probably get better in that aspect though as the seasons change.


OK serious question.......
He is 19 now, but how many years do you think the Kings will give him before they look somewhere else IF Evans is stull putting up less than a 2 to 1 ratio and the Kings are still well below .500?

To answer the last question, I think they'll give him at least three years, if they see improvement from year to year. Personally, I honestly believe that he'll average better than 1 to 1 this year. Remember, he would be a sophmore in college this coming year. And if he were still in college you would look to see how much he's improved from last year, and on and on until he graduates. Unfortuately, he's not a sophmore in college. He's a freshman in the NBA. A tad tougher league. Think how many people (not you) were willing to overlook all the flaws in Thabeets game in his sophmore year. He showed little or no improvement, which is a big red flag to me.

So I would say, that if Evans is able to come close to accomplishing this year with the Kings, what he accomplished in college last year, that would show improvement. Simply because he's in a tougher league. My gut tells me he's special. I don't get that feeling about many players. And so far, my gut hasn't been wrong. I certainly hope that this isn't the first time..

 

[Entity]

My main point is I don't see where a pass first pg would help us any more than Evans will. Somebody that can take over when needed and another huge offensive weapon is going to be great to watch. I don't care if he averages 2 ast per game as long as the points and defense is there.

 

[fnordius]

I don't care if he averages 2 ast per game as long as the points and defense is there.

If he can average 80 or 90 points a game, I'm sure that would be fine. But mere mortals can't do it on their own. Wilt Chamberlain led the '62-'63 Warriors to a 31-49 record, and Oscar Robertson led our Royals through a number of bad seasons. Pete Maravich, Michael Jordan, and most of the other legends of the NBA tried and failed to single handedly carry their teams. No one player has ever pulled that off.

But Tyreke can be hogtied and still beat up Chuck Norris, so maybe he's much better than all those other guys.

 

[Emma]

But Tyreke can be hogtied and still beat up Chuck Norris, so maybe he's much better than all those other guys.

That is a slippery slope my friend. Pray he doesn't come to your door...

 

[Gary]

My main point is I don't see where a pass first pg would help us any more than Evans will. Somebody that can take over when needed and another huge offensive weapon is going to be great to watch. I don't care if he averages 2 ast per game as long as the points and defense is there.

If the team gels and everyone is able to set up everyone else and Evans is used as someone that brings the ball up and calls the set then yes, I don't mind if he averages 2 assists... But if the Kings show no kind of fluidity, and we have 5 guys doing their own things on the floor then I will be pretty pissed we have a PG that is averaging 2 assists. I would like a pass first PG, but I am not totally opposed to the idea of having a BBall smart guard that can make others around him better setting up the offense. So let's hope for a Wade, or Roy type player.. The crappy part about all that though is we would be saying goodbye to Martin =/

 

[nickmcclure]

If he can average 80 or 90 points a game, I'm sure that would be fine. But mere mortals can't do it on their own. Wilt Chamberlain led the '62-'63 Warriors to a 31-49 record, and Oscar Robertson led our Royals through a number of bad seasons. Pete Maravich, Michael Jordan, and most of the other legends of the NBA tried and failed to single handedly carry their teams. No one player has ever pulled that off.

But Tyreke can be hogtied and still beat up Chuck Norris, so maybe he's much better than all those other guys.

Good point, except that when Jordan lead the league in scoring, his team was winning championships. Not that I expect that outta Tyreke next season lol.

 

[bajaden]

If the team gels and everyone is able to set up everyone else and Evans is used as someone that brings the ball up and calls the set then yes, I don't mind if he averages 2 assists... But if the Kings show no kind of fluidity, and we have 5 guys doing their own things on the floor then I will be pretty pissed we have a PG that is averaging 2 assists. I would like a pass first PG, but I am not totally opposed to the idea of having a BBall smart guard that can make others around him better setting up the offense. So let's hope for a Wade, or Roy type player.. The crappy part about all that though is we would be saying goodbye to Martin =/

I don't necessarily make the same jump that you do about Martin. I think your looking at things from a pure traditional prospective. Do you think Don Nelson would have a problem finding minutes for Martin if he was handed the same situation? There are a lot of ways to juggle lineups as opposed to exclusion of a player.

Also, lets not forget the fraility Martin has shown in the last couple of seasons. Its certainly not a bad idea to have a backup plan in case this becomes a chronic problem. I like Martin, and I don't get caught up in this lack of leadership crap, or how one dementional he is. He is what he is. A guy that can score 20 plus points a game. And, contrary to some opinions, players like that don't grow on tree's. So he has value to the team. Lets see how Westphal uses him and Evans before we jump to conclusions.

 

[fnordius]

Good point, except that when Jordan lead the league in scoring, his team was winning championships.

Only after the roster started to be built up, though. In '84-'85 and '86-'87 he led the NBA in scoring, but led the Bulls right into two first round exits. They didn't get past the first round until '87-'88, by which time they had Scottie Pippin, Horace Grant, etc... they still had to add BJ Armstrong and some other guys before that first championship in '91. Six years of MJ without a title! And he led the NBA in scoring for five of those six years (all but '85-'86, when Alex English led the league).

 

[Sptsjunkie]

But if the Kings show no kind of fluidity, and we have 5 guys doing their own things on the floor then I will be pretty pissed we have a PG that is averaging 2 assists. I would like a pass first PG, but I am not totally opposed to the idea of having a BBall smart guard that can make others around him better setting up the offense. So let's hope for a Wade, or Roy type player.. The crappy part about all that though is we would be saying goodbye to Martin =/

Well, first, if we have 5 guys doing their own thing on the court, that's more of a coaching issue than a Tyreke issue.

Second, even if Ty doesn't work as a PG, packaging Martin for an upgrade at another position would not be a bad thing at all. I don't feel we need to trade Martin, but I am not so enamored with his game that I would be devastated if we trade him.

 

[Gary]

Well, first, if we have 5 guys doing their own thing on the court, that's more of a coaching issue than a Tyreke issue.

Second, even if Ty doesn't work as a PG, packaging Martin for an upgrade at another position would not be a bad thing at all. I don't feel we need to trade Martin, but I am not so enamored with his game that I would be devastated if we trade him.

It would upset me because Martin is my favorite King. But if we did get a big or a PG if Evans turned out being a better SG than PG I would get over the trading of Martin. I would still want Petrie out of here though