Amick on K-Mart

[sdballer]

You finding condescension doesn't mean I lost it. I was not being condescending at all... I was simply pointing out that the debate here has gone on quite well without it turning into a "You're a meanie!" or "You hate the Kings!" or any of the other myriad things people who are polar opposites will sometimes say.

People have gone on about Martin for numerous pages and I haven't said a word about the content, although I have very basic conceptual disagreements with some of the things being said. Why? Because I actually like to see both sides of the argument.

The reason I stepped in was because you seemed to want to make it into an expanded us vs. them debate, which never works out well. I highlighted the ONE sentence I found particularly troublesome because righteous indignation on either side of the spectrum is generally self-serving and ill-advised.

Feel free to continue the discussion. That's all well and good. But look again before you decide this debate has been without balance. I think it's a good thread with points on both sides...that's pretty much the definition of balance.

Carry on...

If I misinterpreted your tone, my apologies. My points in the original email and my subsequent response were the following:

1. Show me where the Martin "attackers" suggested he was an underperformer for where he was drafted, should be traded off for garbage or was the only person responsible for the Kings not winning a championship. Because that seems to be what everyone is defending and I can't figure out why. I also enjoy both sides of the argument but not when it reaches the absurd. The reason I "hopped on my soapbox" wasn't that I think its only the die-hards that get absurd, but that its often the other side that is quick to be reminded of what's appropriate, realistic, logical and so on. Its hard to have balanced discussions when it can feel like there are different rules.

2. The responses in this thread have ventured into the innapropriate with none of the usual direction to get back on topic. That was until my response. Go back and read some of the posts and I think you'll find that its been a little nasty.

Again, we all want the same thing and I'm not griping that the site sucks, the moderators need to get a life or any of that waste of time. I'd simply like to see the same respect for all of the fans, regardless of whether you're driving the Kings bus or are a more cautious passenger.

 

[AriesMar27]

back to get on topic.... martin is good but not great... there is a good chance that he will never be great so there is no need for anyone to argue that he should be. he would be a great second option if we had a real number 1, how we obtain that number 1 is an entirely different issue.

maybe we should have a poll or something... though we all know how it will end.

 

[VF21]

2. The responses in this thread have ventured into the innapropriate with none of the usual direction to get back on topic. That was until my response. Go back and read some of the posts and I think you'll find that its been a little nasty.

Again, we all want the same thing and I'm not griping that the site sucks, the moderators need to get a life or any of that waste of time. I'd simply like to see the same respect for all of the fans, regardless of whether you're driving the Kings bus or are a more cautious passenger.

I've read the thread, albeit not all timely as some of the stuff was pretty stale by message board standards when I read it. Having said that, I will agree I shouldn't have singled your comments out when there were others that went unmentioned. So, for that, I apologize.

You are right - we do all want the same thing. We want to have fun watching our Kings. It's the details of what constitutes fun that sometimes leads to dissension in the ranks.

But that might be a topic for another thread.

Peace.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

A lot of this discussion has focused on Martins character ( toughness ). Im going to step away from that for a minute and just focus on him as a basketball player and his contract.

I think we should all know by now that he cant be your franchise guy. He isnt a good defender, rebounder, or playmaker. He is a scorer, and personally I think he is an elite scorer, like top 10 in the league type scorer.

Although this hasnt been proven, I think he can be a very good second option on a playoff team. His scoring is valuable, he scores at an incredible rate and some may say those are empty numbers because we arent winning .. I just dont think that is fair. The team isnt winning. Look at other players with 'empty' stats ... John Salmons is one example. He scored a good chunk of points for us last year, Gets traded to the Bulls and with the addition of him and Miller they make playoff push and take the Celtics to 7 games. Now Salmons is talked about as one of the most underrated players in the league, one of the best contracts ect ... Just like any bad team the good players dont get noticed nationally until the team wins or he gets traded to a winning team. Its unfair to single Martin out...

Now to my main point, his contract.

He is a bargain. For what he does ( as soft as he is ) You cant get a player as good as him for that money. He is what he is, a scorer, and I'll take him for what he does for 10 mil a year any day.

 

[thelonegunman]

I'd settle for a player that scored a third less, but played both sides of the floor.

Didn't the Kings already have that player in John Salmons? And Ron Artest?

Salmons played in 2 more games than Martin did last season. Despite "playing" both sides of the floor, he didn't accomplish anything more than Martin, did he?

When the Kings had Martin, Salmons, AND Artest the season before, they won 21 more games.

It's amazing what occurred when the front office / coaching positions had more stability (Theus wasn't a lame duck coach) AND the talent on the floor was more abundant.

Crazy.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Didn't the Kings already have that player in John Salmons? And Ron Artest?

You seem to be confusing me for someone who'd rather have Martin than Salmons or Artest.

Salmons played in 2 more games than Martin did last season. Despite "playing" both sides of the floor, he didn't accomplish anything more than Martin, did he?

And your point would be what? That Salmons isn't a franchise player, either? We already knew that.

When the Kings had Martin, Salmons, AND Artest the season before, they won 21 more games.

Yeah, maybe it's me, but I'm inclined to believe that the latter two portions of that equation had more to do with the twenty-one more games than the first portion.

It's amazing what occurred when the front office / coaching positions had more stability (Theus wasn't a lame duck coach) AND the talent on the floor was more abundant.

KingsFans.com: where thirty-eight wins passes for "amazing."

 

[Telemachus]

I will say that Roy is their star that they build around. As for Cleveland, they got Lebron FIRST. Lakers went and grabbed Shaq FIRST. SAS had Robinson out for the year, and got TD and built around him.

I think the point he was trying to make is that superstars are not easy to come by. If you are a big market like LA or NY, you can get superstars to sign with your team. But if you are a small market team, you have to get lucky in the draft or find a way to get one in a trade (much easier said than done). Both Cleveland and SAS got lucky by getting the first pick in the draft at the right time. If they don't pick first, then they don't get TD or Lebron. When Roy was drafted, most experts (and fans) had no idea how good he was going to become. People were saying the same things about him that was being said about James Hardin this season -- he might become a solid starter or good role player.

Right now, the Kings are hoping that Tyreke Evens becomes that player for them. Petrie knows that no matter how much cap space we have, none of the big names are going to sign here unless we are already contenders (which is unlikely this season).

 

[thelonegunman]

You seem to be confusing me for someone who'd rather have Martin than Salmons or Artest.

And how's that? Enlighten me, please. Unlike some, I can actually read AND comprehend.

You said you'd settle for a player that scores a 1/3 less than K-Mart and plays defense (Salmons). I presented an example of how that philosophy didn't work out and THIS is the best you've got in return?

Try again.

And your point would be what? That Salmons isn't a franchise player, either? We already knew that.

Obviously, you didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't believe that the Kings or any team for that matter would be better off with a player like Salmons.

My point was, the type of player you'd settle for wasn't any more dynamic and didn't produce any more wins than the "one-dimensional" K-Mart. Your logic is flawed.

It seems you missed THAT point.

Yeah, maybe it's me, but I'm inclined to believe that the latter two portions of that equation had more to do with the twenty-one more games than the first portion.

Then why didn't the Kings win more games with Martin and the mighty John Salmons still on the roster for nearly 2/3 of the season? I guess your saying that it was Ron Artest that was mostly responsible for those 21 extra wins?

I'm sure having more talent from top to bottom had nothing to do with it ....

KingsFans.com: where thirty-eight wins passes for "amazing."

When you only win 17-games, 38 does seem pretty amazing.

I'm sure you wouldn't be the least bit amazed if this upcoming squad pulled off that feat, would you?

Nah. I didn't think so.

Like I said, try again smart guy.

 

[Telemachus]

number 1 picks are an overrated way to get superstars... the clippers have had 2 number 1 picks in the last 11 years and have only made the playoffs once in that time span... hell there have really only been 3 superstars that were number 1 picks in the past 15 years... duncan, lebron and maybe dwight/yao neither one is really on the same level as duncan or lebron.

Getting the #1 pick does not guarantee a superstar by any means. It comes down to the year you get that pick. EVERYONE knew that Labron was going to be a superstar. Tim Duncan was pretty much a can't lose pick. That isn't the case every year, but every once a while you get a sure fire pick.

The rest of the time, it usually boils down to who predicts the future the best or who just gets a little lucky.

 

[Bricklayer]

Like I said, try again smart guy.

Okay, now you are making a mistake. And I don't mean the numerous factual and bball acumen ones sprinkled through your arguments. I mean now you are crossing the being a jerk line with someone other than me. Perhaps this has confused you, although I rather doubt it has done anything of the kind. But I have been handling anything and everything thrown at me around here for something approaching a decade now, and long ago decided to allow a much higher threshhold of ******* behavior to come my way before I shut it down than I would allow to come at any other poster. But you will NOT spread that crap around to anyone else but me, not even to Slim, who needs protection in much the same way a rottweiler needs protection from a chiuhuahua.

Obviously I know exactly who and what you are, and you know this as well as I do. So you should have absolutely no reason to doubt for a second that if you want to press this, I will bounce you out of here so fast your head will spin. Its your call tough guy. But we aren't going to debate this, discuss this, or negotiate this. If you can't or won't control your venom, it will be controlled for you.

With this message you are obviously being given a very public opportunity to screw up and get yourself banned again just like that. But you may note that not a thing has been done yet, not a post edited, not a warning issued. So you are also being given an opportunity to shape up and cut the crap out of your posts on a clean slate. Your choice.

 

[Kings Faithful]

 

[Telemachus]

Thanks! I needed a good laugh.

 

[Gliesian]

omg I just died laughing thanks K.F.

 

[Semi]

Okay, now you are making a mistake. And I don't mean the numerous factual and bball acumen ones sprinkled through your arguments. I mean now you are crossing the being a jerk line with someone other than me. Perhaps this has confused you, although I rather doubt it has done anything of the kind. But I have been handling anything and everything thrown at me around here for something approaching a decade now, and long ago decided to allow a much higher threshhold of ******* behavior to come my way before I shut it down than I would allow to come at any other poster. But you will NOT spread that crap around to anyone else but me, not even to Slim, who needs protection in much the same way a rottweiler needs protection from a chiuhuahua.

Obviously I know exactly who and what you are, and you know this as well as I do. So you should have absolutely no reason to doubt for a second that if you want to press this, I will bounce you out of here so fast your head will spin. Its your call tough guy. But we aren't going to debate this, discuss this, or negotiate this. If you can't or won't control your venom, it will be controlled for you.

With this message you are obviously being given a very public opportunity to screw up and get yourself banned again just like that. But you may note that not a thing has been done yet, not a post edited, not a warning issued. So you are also being given an opportunity to shape up and cut the crap out of your posts on a clean slate. Your choice.

 

[Prince_XY]

This is one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever read. Game, set, match to me.

Face it, Brick. You are a hater. Anybody can dig up stats that support their claims. And that's what you do. You paste the stats / facts that support your hater point of view and conveniently leave out the ones that don't.

Your ace in the hole now is that the Kings only won 17 games last season.
As if that proves anything. How many games did Kevin miss? How many games did they win with him as opposed to without him? If you looked at it objectively, you'd see they were obviously better with him than without him, even if only marginally.

The Miami Heat only won 15 games during the 2007-08 season with the mighty Dwyane Wade playing in 51 out of 82 games (the same amount that Martin played in this season).

While Martin hasn't come close to accomplishing what Wade has, it just goes to show that if the surrounding parts aren't there and the franchise is in complete disarray ... ANYBODY can fail.

If an injury plagued Wade (an obvious super star) couldn't lead his team to more than 15 wins under the above scenario, how can you damn an injury plagued Kevin Martin for not doing much better? I don't get it. Please set me straight.

Furthermore, in regards to your list, Ray Allen WAS a pure scorer on that Celtics team. Despite what he had done in the past, he was a one-dimensional role player during that Championship run. The numbers back that up.

Ginobili was primarily a scorer.
Hamilton was primarily a scorer.

That's THREE guys in the past 6 championships that fit that role. And those 3 guys have / had something that Martin has never had since coming into his own .... all-star teammates that take defensive attention away from him.

Allen has Garnett, Pierce, and now Rondo.
Hamilton had Billups, Wallace, and Prince.
Ginobili has Duncan and Parker.

What has K-Mart ever had?? The best player he's played with (since becoming a prominent player) was Ron Artest. While Artest had his moments, he's no Garnett, Pierce, Billups, Duncan or Parker. Furthermore, that's only ONE player. These other guys had TWO other star players.

The day Martin plays with some notable talent and consistently fails is the day you can factually make the claims you're making.

As of right today, you're 100% wrong. Deal with it.

Excuse me Boss. I think what you're saying is a bit far from being accurate. Just review the games of those players you compared with Martin and you'll know that almost all of them play decent defense. Wade in his losing season was still awesome overall with regards to his defensive effort. So, there really is no point of comparison here.

I don't think anyone is asking for Martin to play super-duper defense. Some of us are just asking for some improvement, or at least a visible effort on the court to improve his defense. For the team's sake and for Martin's sake ( since he wants to lead this team ) HE should address the universal perception of his softness in defense. I hope Martin understands he won't be labelled as ONE-DIMENSIONAL if this isn't true. And I hope he'll address that deficiency in his game, because he should lead by example as one of the veterans and as one who signified a desire to lead this team.

 

[Kingster]

character

What a lot of posts are skirting around is the issue of character. Is Martin inherently soft with no potential to toughen up and play defense, or does Martin just not care enough about winning to toughen up and play defense? How much is Martin willing to sacrifice to play defense? Personally, I think Martin has the potential to be an above average defender in this league, but so far he hasn't shown it. Begs the question, don't you think?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And how's that? Enlighten me, please. Unlike some, I can actually read AND comprehend.

Sadly, only one of those statements is true.

I said I'd rather have a player that scored a third less than Martin and played defense. You simply name-dropped Salmons and Artest, as if that, in itself, were a coherent statement. You didn't offer them as examples of anything. What did you think you were making an example of, anyway? You didn't say anything about them not working out until your subsequent post. And what, exactly, are you alleging that the team did with them that did not work out?

Name dropping is not an argument. You try again.

Obviously, you didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't believe that the Kings or any team for that matter would be better off with a player like Salmons.

My point was, the type of player you'd settle for wasn't any more dynamic and didn't produce any more wins than the "one-dimensional" K-Mart. Your logic is flawed.

It seems you missed THAT point.

Your point is based on faulty reasoning. In order for it to even be moderately based on logic, you have to believe that I was making the case that either one of them can be the guy. NEITHER one of them can be the guy. My statement is based on the premise that I think that Salmons is a better complimentary player than Martin is. Feel free to find the evidence that proves THAT wrong.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Then why didn't the Kings win more games with Martin and the mighty John Salmons still on the roster for nearly 2/3 of the season? I guess your saying that it was Ron Artest that was mostly responsible for those 21 extra wins?

Let's just say that I'd rather take my chances with a 2/3 combination of Salmons and Artest than any combination of Martin and Salmons or Artest.

You and I are arguing different things. If you can show me the evidence that a team that started Martin and Artest or Martin and Salmons was appreciably better than a team that started Salmons and Artest, I'd love to see it. Because, if you can't, then you don't have any factual basis to refute the statement I'm actually arguing.

We don't know whether we could have done better with Salmons and Artest than we did with Salmons and Martin, because we didn't keep Artest; we kept Martin. The only thing that we know, for sure, is that 1) Martin and Salmons didn't work, and 2) Martin and Artest didn't work. We don't know what we would have been able to do with Salmons and Artest but, out of those three, I know who I'm prepared to say the weak link is...

When you only win 17-games, 38 does seem pretty amazing.

I'm sure you wouldn't be the least bit amazed if this upcoming squad pulled off that feat, would you?

Why should I?There's nothing amazing about it.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Thanks! I needed a good laugh.

omg I just died laughing thanks K.F.

Haha! I laughed to myself when I was making it.

 

[Kings Faithful]

People just need to chill. There has been alot of tension in some of these threads lately. I realize it's probably from people just getting impatient with the rebuild. It's going to take a few years to get to the level we were once at and if we get lucky with Tyreke it could be much sooner than we expect. But its not in our hands... making threads criticizing players and hoping to trade away our roster isn't going to fix anything. I'm extremely confident in whatever direction the organization chooses to go. Remember, the guys that built that team a few years ago (one of the best "team teams" I can remember) are the same guys that are running the show now... and they want to win bad. They may choose to take risks with trades and draft picks, they may not... either way I know they aren't happy with losing. My only wish is that the rebuild finishes before Kobe Bryant retires... I want the satisfaction of our team beating him in a playoff series so bad.

 

[Rookie]

it might be speculation or it might be true that they are available but we wouldnt know because the only thing that we do know is that petrie and/or the maloofs wont be making any moves to improve this team. we have the pieces to make a deal for mare but it would just be as a rental and thats what is probably scaring teams away from making the trade. i think its worth it but im not the one making the call.

your post is all speculations...what fact do you have that Petrie/Maloofs don't want to make any moves to improve this team?

I think they're on the right track of rebuilding. Maybe in your eyes they're not but lets not go as far as to say that they're not trying to improve this team.

PS...it's hard to chill when the temperature is 100 deg in the valley.

 

[AriesMar27]

your post is all speculations...what fact do you have that Petrie/Maloofs don't want to make any moves to improve this team?

I think they're on the right track of rebuilding. Maybe in your eyes they're not but lets not go as far as to say that they're not trying to improve this team.

PS...it's hard to chill when the temperature is 100 deg in the valley.

you live in the valley? which one san fernando? yeah its hot, i lived in northridge so i feel your pain.

 

[thelonegunman]

Okay, now you are making a mistake. And I don't mean the numerous factual and bball acumen ones sprinkled through your arguments. I mean now you are crossing the being a jerk line with someone other than me.

You tell me what the difference is between these two statements?

Like I said, try again smart guy.

Its your call tough guy.

First of all, if the derrogatory term 'smart guy' is considered offensive around here and is crossing the "line", then I'm not the one with the problem with being overly sensitive. And I certainly have made no mistakes, nor will I. I'm entitled to flex my sports IQ and come off holier than thou just the same as you or Slim. And make no mistake, you guys do that.

I'm not offended by the "tough guy" remark. Nor do I think it's crossing the line. The only thing crossing the line is the hypocracy around here.

Obviously I know exactly who and what you are, and you know this as well as I do.

Please humor me. Tell me what you KNOW me to be and what, allegedly, I know as well. What, you can't deal with a little flavor to the discussion? You can dish the holier than thou attitude but can't take it in return?
One thing is for sure, whatever you think you know about me .. you better include "having a thicker skin" to the list....

I will bounce you out of here so fast your head will spin. If you can't or won't control your venom, it will be controlled for you.

With this message you are obviously being given a very public opportunity to screw up and get yourself banned again just like that. But you may note that not a thing has been done yet, not a post edited, not a warning issued. So you are also being given an opportunity to shape up and cut the crap out of your posts on a clean slate. Your choice.

Do what you think you need to do. If you don't want someone doing to you what you do to others, fine .. ban me. I came here to discuss sports. I love sports. I've been following most major sports for the past 40 years. I'm passionate about it. And most of all, I will call people out on things I disagree with them on. Especially those that don't have their facts straight or come off as infallible when all they have is an opinion that can't possibly be proven 100% right or wrong.

Can I come off that way? Sure. And I don't have a problem being called out for it. I can take the heat. And if I'm unequivocally proven wrong, I'll be man enough to admit it.

Just don't be a hypocrite. Fair enough?

 

[thelonegunman]

Just review the games of those players you compared with Martin and you'll know that almost all of them play decent defense. Wade in his losing season was still awesome overall with regards to his defensive effort. So, there really is no point of comparison here.

You missed the point. I'm not comparing Martin to Wade. We all know that Wade is a superstar and Martin is not. The point was, if a superstar such as Wade, who is clearly more dominant than Martin, ensured a season in which his team only won 15-games .. then using a 17-win season as evidence why Martin is fundamentally flawed or isn't a player worthy of building around is failed logic. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Bricklayer]

It really really wasn't a discussion.

Really.

We aren't going to get started down that path, negotiate that path, equivocate, or go through the inevitable claims of victimhood and persecution. There was a rule. You were informed of it, and yet like a moth to a flame.


You've got the brains to post here, but an ego to choke on. You can feel free to apply for reinstatment, and maybe you'll get it, but you're going to have to prove you can post without being an incessant jerk. You did in your second post there. Just think how differently things might have gone if that's how you'd played it from the start.

 

[NanaKing]

Oh good grief - So now it's going to be attacks on Kev's character?!?! He's responding to direct questions. I know you don't like him and never have but at some point this just becomes ludicrous. He did have a myriad of problems with his ankle last year; it was pretty well documented.

And I'm sorry but I think your assessment of Kevin as "that completely worthless teammate" is way over the line.

I know...I'm too protective, too much a Martin homer, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I'm just tired of the blanket condemnation of him no matter what he does or tries to do. He didn't get much help last year at all, he was playing hurt most of the year, and still he's the target of this stuff?

Yes, Martin's game may have its flaws; Kevin may have flaws, too. He's human - just like every other player on the team. He's also one of the few bright spots of the past few years, even though you were pretty much convinced he'd never amount to anything in this league.

I liked the article; I thought it was actually pretty fair, and I take Martin at his word that's he working hard to come back this year stronger than ever, healthy and looking forward to working with Evans.

WOW!!!!!! Brick sure doesn't like my grandson.

 

[Kingzrool]

WOW!!!!!! Brick sure doesn't like my grandson.

And with that, hopefully this thread dies.